Religion Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh?

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Yeah, you know I really don't want to find myself somehow on ATP's side here but I feel I need to point out, that's not the only way Κύριος is used in the Bible. It is used as a respectful form of masculine address somewhat analogous to how we'd use "Sir," not just as an address for Yahweh. That said it is used for Yahweh frequently as well so it's not definitive.

It's used as a form of address to a human Magistrate in Matthew 27:63.
The famous Samaritan woman at the well addresses Jesus this way, well before she even realizes he's a prophet, much less the Messiah.
Greeks use the term as a polite address for Philip in John 12:21.
A Roman Officer addresses Paul with the term at Acts 16:30.

More details on the various forms of Kurios and how it's used in many scriptures here:

That is true, the meaning is determined by the context.
And also, the people in the gospels were probably talking in Aramaic, so we don't even have their exact words.

But when the Apostle Paul says that Jesus has the Name that is above every other name, and at that Name every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord... it obviously means something far stronger than a simple term of polite respect.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Apparently ATP thinks that Jesus being human means He cannot also be Divine.

Notice how he just ignores the Bible passages that teach Jesus' Deity.

How so? as catholic i knew that Jesus is both human and God.But - thanks to Tradition,not NT.
And many Bible passages strongly suggest it - but not teach.

Here,Paul preaching to jews:

Acts 22:14-15



14 “Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15 You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

See- for Paul then Jesus was Righteous One,not God.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Since @ATP mentioned the Nicene Creed, here's the full text:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen


Notice something? No mention of Yahweh as a person of the trinity. Jesus is called "Lord", "Κύριον", the word used for Yahweh in Greek. And the Holy Spirit is also called the Lord, "Κύριον". But no mention of "Yahweh" alone as a person of the Trinity.

Notice one other thing though - it says the Holy Spirit "has spoken through the Prophets". Who are the Prophets? Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. The authors of the Old Testament Scriptures. @ATP , your own tradition says God has spoken through the Prophets. You are denying your own tradition when you say things like the Old Testament "was written by people who could make mistakes and didn't understand facts". The Old Testament is what God spoke through the Prophets. I don't think it's a good idea to dismiss or ignore what God has spoken, do you?

God spoke through Isaiah to say that he is one God, Yahweh, and that there is no one beside him. The Nicene Creed affirms there is one God. The one God the Nicene Creed describes is the one God who spoke through Isaiah, Yahweh. He is the Trinity. God is the Father, God is the Lord Jesus Christ, and God is the Holy Spirit. Yahweh is the Father, Yahweh is the Lord Jesus Christ, and Yahweh is the Holy Spirit. That is the whole dogma that the Nicene Creed affirms. So for you to suggest that saying Jesus is Yahweh is somehow "new heresy" is just...you really do not know what you are talking about. You are the heretic to deny that, even by the tradition of the Roman Catholic church.

So close,and still so far from undarstanding.
Jahwe is Father,not Trinity.If you do not belive me,ask any catholic priest.
And Bible is not Koran dictated by angels - so,prophets could made mistake,they were humans.

Another proof,that you are wrong:

Acts 24:14-15


14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Paul speaking before romans who hold him - he say that he is jew following jewish traditions,nothing there about following Jesus as God.
 

ATP

Well-known member
I'm gonna make it very simple for everyone. @ATP is a raging antisemite, his mental gymnastics are intended to deny the Jewish people any validity.

You are trolling,right? could you explain,my dear uneducated friend,how talking about New Testament and if it could prove that Jesus is God or not,made me raging antisemite?
Entire talk have nothing to do with jews,only with New Testament.

Here,another proof that NT do not treat Jesus as God:

Acts 25:18-19


18 When the accusers stood up, they brought no charge in his case of such evils as I supposed. 19 Rather they had certain points of dispute with him about their own religion and about a certain Jesus, who was dead, but whom Paul asserted to be alive.

Part of roman report about Paul case - stating that Paul is beliver of jewish religion,and only difference is that he claim that certaon Jesus died but is alive.
Nothing about Jesus being God/which i belive - but not from NT/
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
giphy.gif


Nothing left to say really. Good to know for future reference that @ATP is a complete troll and moron with no interest in good faith discussion and debate.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
giphy.gif


Nothing left to say really. Good to know for future reference that @ATP is a complete troll and moron with no interest in good faith discussion and debate.

Yeah - repeats himself over and over, ignores responses, disregards the Bible whenever it suits him, pretends he cannot understand it...
 
The Catechism of the Catholic Church identifying Jesus as Yahweh

Stargazer

Well-known member
Not that it's going to get through ATP's thick skull. But I just want to dispel any notion that his claims are representative even of Catholic tradition.

This is what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about Scripture:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."
72

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText (vatican.va)

God acted through the authors of the Scriptures so they would write what he wanted. The books of Scripture teach truth from God without error. And that includes the whole canon of the Old and New Testaments.

Oh, and what's this?...

IV. Lord

446 In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the ineffable Hebrew name YHWH, by which God revealed himself to Moses,59 is rendered as Kyrios, "Lord". From then on, "Lord" becomes the more usual name by which to indicate the divinity of Israel's God. the New Testament uses this full sense of the title "Lord" both for the Father and - what is new - for Jesus, who is thereby recognized as God Himself.60

447 Jesus ascribes this title to himself in a veiled way when he disputes with the Pharisees about the meaning of Psalm 110, but also in an explicit way when he addresses his apostles.61 Throughout his public life, he demonstrated his divine sovereignty by works of power over nature, illnesses, demons, death and sin.


Well would you look at that. The Catechism of the Catholic Church says exactly what we've been saying, that the name "YHWH" or "Yahweh" is expressed as the title "Kyrios" or "Lord" in the New Testament, and the title is used in the full sense for both the Father AND for Jesus, and that is thereby how Jesus is recognized as God.

Also, contrary to how @ATP keeps repeating "Jesus never said he is God", the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that Jesus explicitly ascribed the title to himself when addressing his apostles. And it cites verses from the New Testament to that point.

So, @ATP . Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church wrong to state all these things?
 

ATP

Well-known member
Sounds about right. He's not a Christian, then.

Charming.Made tread about that,becouse that is about NT,and if it alone could be proof of Jesus being God or not.
Which i belive,when you think that He is Jahwe.

Now,another proof that i am right:


Acts 26:8-23

8 Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?

9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

See- Paul was ready to die for his Faith,yet he still considered Jesus as Messiah who fullfiled Moses promises,not God.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Oh, right... I think I understand now. Sort of...
But if hating on Teh Jooz is his thing, he could find piles of ammo for that in the Old Testament, if his ideology permitted him to look there.
And one of the things both the OT and the NT denounce the Israelites for is: not believing or obeying the word of the LORD, but instead following their own made-up traditions.
People like him are in danger of becoming what they hate.



Maybe. My take is that ATP is not entirely clear in his own mind as to what he does or doesn't believe.

1.I do not hate jews,only do not care about them.And this tread is about NT,not jews anyway,so @The One Char only proved that he is unable to read.
2.Nicene Credo.
Here,another proof,which could be partially support you:


Acts 28:23

23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

It is not told here if he consider Jesus as Messiah or as a God,so you could say that it imply that Jesus is God.But - still not saing it openly.half a point.

Since,i am done with Acts,now we have results.
One point for declaring as Messiah for me,half for impling something.

Peter speaking about Jesus - 7 times,never as God,not even suggesting that.
Apollos 1 - the same
jews accusing Paul - 1,the same
roman report - 1,the same.
Paul - 10 times,8 where Jesus is Messiah or Lord,2 when it could be impied that He is God.
So,18:1 for me.
 
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Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Since,i am done with Acts,now we have results.
One point for declaring as Messiah for me,half for impling something.

Peter speaking about Jesus - 7 times,never as God,not even suggesting that.
Apollos 1 - the same
jews accusing Paul - 1,the same
roman report - 1,the same.
Paul - 10 times,8 where Jesus is Messiah or Lord,2 when it could be impied that He is God.
So,18:1 for me.

I didn't know this was a game for points.

Not mentioning something is not the same as denying it.
The most you can prove from those passages is that Jesus' Deity was not considered an essential part of the basic Gospel message, not something everyone needed to be informed of right up-front.
Which is not the same thing at all as saying that it was not something Peter or Paul believed.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Which scholars, and which 6 letters? If you won't be specific, you are hand-waving.




And he did say so.
Colossians 2:9 for example.

1.E.P Sanders,Saint Paul the apostle,Encyclopedia Britannica.Certainly not papist source!
True letters - Romans,both Corinthians,Philemon,philiphians,1 thesalonicans.
Others - written between 90 and 130AD.

2.Wrote after Paul death by his pupils.Show Faith of church after 90AD,not Apostles.

Now,i am starting with true Pauline letters.
Here,Romans:

Romans 1:1-7



1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life[a] was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power[b] by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from[c] faith for his name’s sake. 6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.

7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

See - Jesus is God son,raised by HIM,and we belong to Jesus - but,HE is still Lord,not God.If Paul wanted to write that Jesus is God,he would do so.
 

ATP

Well-known member
"I Am" is the Name of God from Exodus chapter 3

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I am who I am.[c] This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’”
15 God also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The Lord,[d] the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.’

It imply that jesus is God - but still not openly say it.

Now,source for pauline letters:
 

ATP

Well-known member
You already responded to that post.



Becouse all your post are the same.
When i have always new citate from NT.
Here:

Romans 1:8-11

Paul’s Longing to Visit Rome
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9 God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong—

See - God is God,and Jesus here is HIS son,not God.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
Becouse all your post are the same.
When i have always new citate from NT.
Here:

Romans 1:8-11

Paul’s Longing to Visit Rome
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9 God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

11 I long to see you so that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to make you strong—

See - God is God,and Jesus here is HIS son,not God.



You do realize that the Son is identified in Hebrews as Yahweh, right? Refer back to my first post.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Notice that ATP has quietly changed his ground. First it was "no, the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is God, only Muh Tradition does".
Now it's "um yes those Bible passages do say that He's God - but we would only know it said that because Tradition".

Nope,i from the beginning told that Jesus and others implied that Jesus is God.But - never told that openly.

Here another:

Romans 2:15-16

15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

See - God would judge through Jesus,not both as one God.
 

ATP

Well-known member
You just completely skipped the post where I went into detail about the use of the word "Κύριος" in Greek, how it is used to mean "Yahweh", and how the very Scriptures you're quoting apply the word to Jesus. You aren't debating, you're just repeating the same assertions over and over again. I already showed how the Gospel of John, Titus, 2 Peter, and Hebrews - all included in the New Testament - clearly identify Jesus as God, and more specifically as the God Yahweh of the Old Testament.

Jesus is God, Yahweh, or Κύριος, the New Testament teaches that he is.

Then they would wrote about Jesus as God.But - in NT wroten by Apostles it never happened.
Here,Paul wrote about God:

Romans 2:23-26


23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”[a]

25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised. 26 So then, if those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

See - he have no problem with naming God as God,when Jesus was Lord.
 

ATP

Well-known member
Careful what you ask for.
But if you think that's "hatespeech", you have lived a sheltered life.



Meaning that you do not understand it?




I have cited a few verses already - you just refuse to accept them.




Whatever. Apparently you don't think that Peter believed that Jesus is God. So why do you then?




Where do you get Jesus not being God from there?
I see "our Lord Jesus" there. Why don't you?

1.Nope,i simply feel nostalgic.For times before they banned me from SB and SV.But indeed,you could be better in doing so.
2.If you belive so.
3.Then show where Jesus said "I am God" or Apostles wrote in their letters/not wrotten later by somebody else/ "Jesus is God"
4.He do not belived so when he was enlinghtened by Holy Spirit - otherwise he would teach about Jesus being God,not Messiah.
But he could belive later,and even if not,we knew that Jesus is God thanks to Tradition.
5.Lord Jesus.Not God Jesus.

Here,another:

Romans 3:23-26


23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

See - Jesus is sacrifice,and God is God.
 

Stargazer

Well-known member
I have come to the conclusion, based on his last few posts, that @ATP is actually illiterate, and is simply incapable of reading.

@ATP , what is the New Testament, what works comprise the New Testament? Is it not the following list of writings:

Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Acts
Romans
1 Corinthians
2 Corinthians
Galatians
Ephesians
Philippians
Colossians
1 Thessalonians
2 Thessalonians
1 Timothy
2 Timothy
Titus
Philemon
1 Peter
2 Peter
1 John
2 John
3 John
James
Hebrews
Jude
Revelation
 
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ATP

Well-known member
I think we can safely conclude that when @ATP refers to "tradition", he really means whatever he decides is valid as tradition, that he is his own pope.

Nope,it is nicean credo and dogmats.I am not Luder after all,or one of protestant rulers.Or leader of one of 40.000 protestant sects.
Here :

Romans 4:24-25


24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

See - God is God,and Jesus is Lord raised by God from death.
 

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