Religion Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh?
- Thread starter Stargazer
- Start date
Nope.Some parts of NT wroten by Apostles - when all other part wrote by Apostles do not claim that JESUS IS GOD.
And Jesus never claim such thing,too.
When he gave Keys to Peter - which you deny.
So,you deny worlds of Jesus,when it not suiy your sect viev.
But,you are defending doomed cause,so i not blame you for running.
@Scottty - debating in Bad Faith mean denying worlds of Jesus and claiming what he never said.
I showed you examples of the Apostles referring to Jesus as God in their writings, which are part of the New Testament. I also showed you examples of the Apostles identifying Jesus specifically as Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. You admitted that "some parts of the NT" identify Jesus as God. If "some parts of the NT" identify Jesus as God, that answers the question of the thread title. The New Testament teaches that Jesus is God. Are you requiring the Apostles to say "Jesus is God" in every sentence in order for the New Testament to teach Jesus is God? Your standard of evidence is absurd.
As for giving the keys to Peter, I didn't start this thread to discuss that. If you want to make claims about that verse and what Jesus meant by "giving the keys", you can go start another thread. I won't run from that discussion, I assure you.
I'll be quite surprised if he takes you up on that. I don't think he seriously wants to debate or discuss the topic at all.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
ATP is giving an excellent demonstration of what hardline atheists like to strawman all religious types as being. He doesn't argue, he just repeats the doctrine he's been taught ad nauseum, and doesn't seem to even be capable of wrapping his mind around the arguments presented, much less rebut them.
Then you made wrong thread - becouse my tesis was both about Jesus not naming HIMSELF as GOD, and giving Peter Keys.
And how the same protestants who deny Jesus worlds about Keys say that HE is GOD,even when HE NEVER SAID THAT.
But - you found two fragments,one/Titus/ not wrote by Paul,but later.
Now,let see how Apostles reacted after Holy Spirit enlingtened them.:
Acts 2:22-32
22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men,[a] put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him. 25 David said about him:
“‘I saw the Lord always before me.
Because he is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will rest in hope,
27 because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead,
you will not let your holy one see decay.
28 You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will fill me with joy in your presence.’[b]
29 “Fellow Israelites, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was to come, he spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that he was not abandoned to the realm of the dead, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it.
See - Peter is not speaking about Jesus being God,but Good Man and Messiah.Maybe later he changed his mind,maybe his letter was faked,too - but after Jesus Ressurection Nor he,nor others treated Jesus as God.
I made exactly the thread I wanted to, because I wanted to make the positive claim that the New Testament teaches Jesus is God. If you want to make claims about the keys being given to Peter and what that means, you're free to make your own thread, and I'll discuss it there. I'm not going to respond to any more mentions of the keys in this thread. Be a man and make your own thread, present your own case.
Evidence? Can you cite any ancient sources that say Titus wasn't written by Paul? It's part of the New Testament, attributed to Paul, and thus is valid to use for the claim that the New Testament teaches Jesus is God.
Peter referred to Jesus as "Our God and Savior" in his second epistle. That epistle is included in the New Testament. That is a fact. Everything Peter said about Jesus in his sermon in Acts 2 is true, and everything Peter wrote in his second epistle is true. If you have to call into question the validity or authority of part of the New Testament, again, you've already conceded the question of the thread topic.
Jesus is God, the New Testament teaches that he is.
And you're descending down a liberal, progressive Christian rabbit hole if you're going to deny Pauline or Petrine authorship of parts of the New Testament, but that would be a whole other thread, too.
1.Problem is tat you are answering to me,and i asked another question.Answering your own question and claiming it as answer to me is classical debating in Bad Faith.
2.Not me.And not mediewal Church.But from 19th century part of Paul letters are disputed and considered as false - not problem for us,catholics,becouse we still have Tradition.
Big problem for protestants,but why should i care?
3.Then Peter changed his mind before he died - becouse in Acts 2,22-32 he clearly treated Jesus as Messiah,not God.
If he wanted to say that Jesus is God and part of Trinity after Ressurection,he would say so.
But,if you do not want listen to Peter,then what about JESUS HIMSELF?
Here:
Luke 24:44-48
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.
Not problem for catholics,orthodox,Copts etc who could use Tradition as source of knowledge that JESUS IS GOD -
But,protestants could only try to shout "you bad papist" or something like that.
If you insist on continuing,i would deliver more citates from NT when Apostles said about Messiah,not God.
Have a nice day.
Becouse Jesus here told thet HE WAS MESSIAH.
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Jesus is both the promised Messiah and the God of the Old Testament. These aren't mutually exclusive ideas, nothing about it requires that Peter "changed his mind".
But the fact that you would even suggest Peter could "change his mind" and thus have two opposing ideas recorded as New Testament teaching shows a deeper disagreement between us. Even if any given verse of the New Testament teaches that Jesus is God, it doesn't matter to you, because you think the New Testament can be wrong, that it can be incorrect. I don't; I believe the whole New Testament to be valid, consistent, and authoritative as divinely inspired, breathed out by God through his apostles. It doesn't matter if it was said right after the resurrection or decades later (it as all written down decades after the resurrection, anyways). It is all divinely inspired teaching.
And it teaches that Jesus is God.
1.That quite new heresy.Jesus is God,but not Jahwe.Even Luder do not claimed that.Are you really protestant? becouse non of their sects claimed that Jesus is Jahwe.
2.Peter never claimed that Jesus is God - "his" second letter is fake,too.
3.Six of Paul letters and one of Peter are fakes.Of course,that NT could be wrong.
Now,another citate:
Acts 3:13-18
13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.
17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.
So,Jesus is God servant,author of life,Messiah - but not God Himself.
Not problem for catholic like me,or orthodox,Copts,etc,becouse we have Tradition -
But you have problem every time Apostles go and teach that Jesus is Messiash do not mentioning fact that HE IS GOD.
The amount of ignorance to think claiming Jesus is Yahweh - the God of the Old Testament - is "new heresy" is absolutely astonishing. You literally don't know the first thing about Christianity and the history of Christian belief.
You have thoroughly shown, both in this thread and the other, that you don't believe the Bible is divinely inspired and authoritative, either the Old or the New Testament. There's no point in continued discussion if we don't agree on what is the valid source for knowing about God. You conceded the question of the thread topic days ago, so I'm done interacting with your bad faith irrelevant modern critical nonsense
No, it is not. Ignoring people's responses to you and just repeating yourself, on the other hand, is.
By who, and why should we care?
Even in the 1st century, there were people like the Judaizers, who rejected Paul's teaching.
And what does said "Tradition" teach about the authorship and authority of the Pauline Epistles?
Do you even know, or care?
How is there being people who reject the authority of Scripture a problem for us?
ATP, if you are about "Tradition" so very much, maybe you should consider what it teaches about the Bible?
1.God is Trinity - Jahwe,Jesus and Holy Spirit.But Jahwe is Jahwe,not Jesus or Holy Spirit.
And we could not find that in NT - only Tradition.
2.OT claimed that jews genocided caananitees - which is bloody fairy-tale.
I conceded nothing - only you failed to deliver proofs that Jesus told about HIMSELF AS GOD,and Apostles treated HIM as such.
Becouse both latters you citated are fakes made by somebody else later.
And what NT actually told about Jesus:
Acts 3:20-26
20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’[a]
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days. 25 And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’[b] 26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”
Jesus is here Messiah,prophet,and servant.
If Peter wanted told that JESUS IS GOD,HE WOULD SAY SO.
1.Now i will reply you - and with another NT citates,not repetating myself.Sorry,if hurt your feelings.
2.Six letters of Paul are considered as fake by almost everybody who learned about that period.Althought they write about them as "disputed".
3.Tradition is used with reason,not blind zeal.When protestants discovered that six of Pul latters are fake,catholics scholars checked that,and when they discovered tat they are really fake,they confirm it.
4.Tradition teach,that Bible was not dictated by angel,like koran to Machomet,but wroten by people who could made mistakes and do not undarstandt facts.
Just like Apostles,who even after Ressurecting of Jesus and being enlightened by Holy Spirit still do not undarstandt that
Jesus is God and part of Trinity.
Here:
Acts 4:27-31
27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28 They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. 29 Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. 30 Stretch out your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of your holy servant Jesus.”
31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
As you see,all Apostles considered Jesus as holy servant of God,not God Himself.
But,at least they comprehand existence of Holy Spirit.
Maybe you need to go and learn your Tradition properly before you tub-thump about it to others!
God is one Being, in three Persons. YHWH, the Old Testament covenant name of God, applies equally to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
If you had ever actually read the relevant parts of the Old Testament (of course you haven't) you would know that the Israelites (not just the Jews - that's the tribe of Judah, there were 12 tribes) were commanded by Moses to exterminate the Canaanites, but did not carry out this command.
They intersettled with them and intermarried, and started to worship their gods, just as Moses feared would happen.
The New Testament consists of more than one sermon by the Apostle Peter, dude.
Who is this "almost everybody"? Want to give some names? Because it sounds as if your set of "almost everybody" strongly overlaps with my set of "people whose opinion counts for nothing with me."
Again, you are just making unsubstantiated claims. How about saying which six letters? And who is claiming that Paul never wrote them, and on what basis did they make that claim?
No surprise that your Papist "scholars" are happy to go along with hyper-liberal nitwits in rejecting the writing of the Apostle Paul. After all, so much of what Paul wrote contradicts and refutes Papist teaching.
But if the RCC has suddenly decided to officially redefine which books it includes in its canon of Scripture, it would seem that no one other than yourself got the memo.
In any case, as Stargazer said, you've already conceded. The point was whether Jesus is taught to be God incarnate in the New Testament. And we all know that the answer to that question is yes.
That you don't accept the authority of the books of the NT that teach this is irrelevant.
Let me guess - do you also reject the Gospel of John?
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I did want to clear up this notion that Yahweh is just one person of the Trinity. Yahweh is the God of the Old Testament - there is no defining Yahweh apart from the Old Testament Scriptures, and Jesus and the Apostles repeatedly quoted them as Scripture and affirmed them as being spoken by God. Here are a couple relevant Scripture references about Yahweh (English translations commonly render Yahweh as "LORD", so when your see "LORD", it's talking about Yahweh.)
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11 ESV
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Isaiah 44:6-8 ESV
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
Isaiah 44:24 ESV
A couple things to note here. First, "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god." There is no god besides Yahweh. So, If Yahweh is only one of three persons in the Trinity, what does that make Jesus and the Holy Spirit? They are God, but they're also "beside" Yahweh? That's incompatible with Scripture.
"I, I am the LORD, besides me there is no Savior." If Jesus isn't Yahweh, Jesus can't be the Savior, according to Scripture. Only Yahweh is Savior.
"I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself." If Jesus isn't Yahweh, he can't be the creator of the heavens and the earth. Only Yahweh did that.
So, question for @ATP: Do you believe these to be true statements about Yahweh? If so, arguing that Jesus is God but not Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, is utterly nonsensical. And I'm pretty sure it's not the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, either. You are utterly clueless. I challenge you to cite one Christian source, just one, that describes Yahweh as a person of the Trinity.
And if you don't believe those are true statements about Yahweh, then I don't know what God you worship. It's not the same God that I worship, because I worship Yahweh, the God spoken of in the Old Testament. You have a different religion than me.
“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior.
Isaiah 43:10-11 ESV
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. Who is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and set it before me, since I appointed an ancient people. Let them declare what is to come, and what will happen. Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Isaiah 44:6-8 ESV
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,
Isaiah 44:24 ESV
A couple things to note here. First, "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god." There is no god besides Yahweh. So, If Yahweh is only one of three persons in the Trinity, what does that make Jesus and the Holy Spirit? They are God, but they're also "beside" Yahweh? That's incompatible with Scripture.
"I, I am the LORD, besides me there is no Savior." If Jesus isn't Yahweh, Jesus can't be the Savior, according to Scripture. Only Yahweh is Savior.
"I am the LORD, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself." If Jesus isn't Yahweh, he can't be the creator of the heavens and the earth. Only Yahweh did that.
So, question for @ATP: Do you believe these to be true statements about Yahweh? If so, arguing that Jesus is God but not Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, is utterly nonsensical. And I'm pretty sure it's not the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, either. You are utterly clueless. I challenge you to cite one Christian source, just one, that describes Yahweh as a person of the Trinity.
And if you don't believe those are true statements about Yahweh, then I don't know what God you worship. It's not the same God that I worship, because I worship Yahweh, the God spoken of in the Old Testament. You have a different religion than me.
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i do not intent to argue about that - scholars who read ancient text,like Anna Świderkówna,decided that,not me.
I have no enough knowledge to check if letter was written by Paul or not.
But - i have enough knowledge to read NT and check what Apostles said about Jesus.For now,they said that HE was messiah,prophet,servant,maybe angel - but not God.
Here,another proof:
Acts 5,29-32
29 Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30 The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31 God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
Jesus is Prince and Saviour,but again - not God.
And Peter seems unaware of fact that Holy Spirit is God,too.
And Jahwe clearly here is God who raised Jesus,not Jesus.
I could continue if you insist till Acts of Apostles End.
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