Religion Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh?

[ATP]

Maybe you need to go and learn your Tradition properly before you tub-thump about it to others!
God is one Being, in three Persons. YHWH, the Old Testament covenant name of God, applies equally to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.



If you had ever actually read the relevant parts of the Old Testament (of course you haven't) you would know that the Israelites (not just the Jews - that's the tribe of Judah, there were 12 tribes) were commanded by Moses to exterminate the Canaanites, but did not carry out this command.
They intersettled with them and intermarried, and started to worship their gods, just as Moses feared would happen.



The New Testament consists of more than one sermon by the Apostle Peter, dude.



Who is this "almost everybody"? Want to give some names? Because it sounds as if your set of "almost everybody" strongly overlaps with my set of "people whose opinion counts for nothing with me."



Again, you are just making unsubstantiated claims. How about saying which six letters? And who is claiming that Paul never wrote them, and on what basis did they make that claim?

No surprise that your Papist "scholars" are happy to go along with hyper-liberal nitwits in rejecting the writing of the Apostle Paul. After all, so much of what Paul wrote contradicts and refutes Papist teaching.

But if the RCC has suddenly decided to officially redefine which books it includes in its canon of Scripture, it would seem that no one other than yourself got the memo.

In any case, as Stargazer said, you've already conceded. The point was whether Jesus is taught to be God incarnate in the New Testament. And we all know that the answer to that question is yes.
That you don't accept the authority of the books of the NT that teach this is irrelevant.

Let me guess - do you also reject the Gospel of John?

1.Yers,God is one Being in 3 Persons - and that persons are Jahwe,Jesus and Holy Spirit.

2.They genocided Jerycho,and all other cities they captured - at least,officially.In Reality even OT mention that they fight tribes which was supposed to be genocided much later,even in Assyrian times.
I blame that for them being semites - those people always boasted that they killed all enemies.

3.Indeed.And that i deliver one citate after another,when Apostles/not only Peter/ do not treated Jesus as God.

4.Scholars which actually could read ancient greek and arameic,and knew their customs.Like Anna Świderkówna,for example.

5.They treat second letter of Peter as fake,or,if you prefer that,disputed.

Here,another proof that people do not considered Jesus as God:


Acts 7:51-53



51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

See - Jesus is Righteous One here ,which was predicted by prophets.Not God.

 

[Scottty]

1.Yers,God is one Being in 3 Persons - and that persons are Jahwe,Jesus and Holy Spirit.

Citation required.
Have you been reading The Watchtower or something?

2.They genocided Jerycho,and all other cities they captured - at least,officially.In Reality even OT mention that they fight tribes which was supposed to be genocided much later,even in Assyrian times.
I blame that for them being semites - those people always boasted that they killed all enemies.

I've answered this already.
And there is archeological evidence of Jericho being sacked at that time.

3.Indeed.And that i deliver one citate after another,when Apostles/not only Peter/ do not treated Jesus as God.

Peter was not infallible, and him not yet fully understanding Jesus' true nature yet is no disproof of Jesus' being God.
Hey - I thought you believed that Peter was the guy with the keys? Did your "The Church" later decide that Peter got things wrong?
Because that is what you are implying here...

4.Scholars which actually could read ancient greek and arameic,and knew their customs.Like Anna Świderkówna,for example.

5.They treat second letter of Peter as fake,or,if you prefer that,disputed.

Ooooh scholars! Give up the Faith entrusted to the saints by Jesus and the Apostles, little mortal humans, because the mighty scholars tell you to! /sarcasm

Here,another proof that people do not considered Jesus as God:


Acts 7:51-53



51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your ancestors did not persecute? They even killed those who predicted the coming of the Righteous One. And now you have betrayed and murdered him— 53 you who have received the law that was given through angels but have not obeyed it.”

See - Jesus is Righteous One here ,which was predicted by prophets.Not God.

No, nothing in there contradicts Jesus being God.

 

[Stargazer]

@ATP , how do you know who Yahweh is?

 

[Bear Ribs]

Citation required.
Have you been reading The Watchtower or something?

Having discussed the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses more than once, let me just say for the record they'd disagree with ATP very strongly, they do not believe in a Trinity whatsoever and wouldn't put such teachings in the Watchtower.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/is-jesus-almighty/

 

[Scottty]

Having discussed the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses more than once, let me just say for the record they'd disagree with ATP very strongly, they do not believe in a Trinity whatsoever and wouldn't put such teachings in the Watchtower.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/is-jesus-almighty/

I know that. I was referring to him thinking that the OT name for God applied only to God the Father. But it sounds like ATP interprets the Bible a bit like the JWs do, but then discards it in favor of "Tradition" - or what he thinks is church tradition anyway.

 

[Stargazer]

Having discussed the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses more than once, let me just say for the record they'd disagree with ATP very strongly, they do not believe in a Trinity whatsoever and wouldn't put such teachings in the Watchtower.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/is-jesus-almighty/

He's got this weird mishmash of Arian and Marcionite interpretation of Scripture, a modernist rejection of the validity, consistency, and authority of Scripture, a hardcore papist devotion to "tradition" combined with flagrant ignorance of what that tradition actually teaches, and ignorance of the history of Christian belief in general. It's an absolute incoherent mess, a real JW would have a field day with him.

 

[ATP]

Hey, Peter just said Jesus is Savior, and Isaiah 43:11 says that there is no Savior besides Yahweh, so that must mean Jesus is Yahweh! Thanks for finding more proof for MY argument.

You really don't have a clue what your own church believes, do you?

Nope.
According to your logic,Jahwe raised himself from dead,then made himself sit of his own right hand,and then made himself Prince and savior.
You are indeed funny.

Now,another citation:


Acts 9:17-22




17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

There is no Peter here,but for Ananias Jesus is Lord,not God,and for Paul Messiah,again not God.

I really could made it to the end of NT - and find proofs tat i am right and you are wrong - that Jesus was not considered as God,but somebody else.
Not problem for me,but you must keep to Bible only.

 

[Scottty]

@ATP what use is all that church tradition to you, if you are so ignorant of what it says?

Or if you treat it like you obviously do the Bible, waving away any part of it that says things you've made up your mind that it can't say?

 

[Scottty]

He's got this weird mishmash of Arian and Marcionite interpretation of Scripture, a modernist rejection of the validity, consistency, and authority of Scripture, a hardcore papist devotion to "tradition" combined with flagrant ignorance of what that tradition actually teaches, and ignorance of the history of Christian belief in general. It's an absolute incoherent mess, a real JW would have a field day with him.

Actually, if he's being honest with us about his beliefs, he might feel at home among the New Apostolic people.

 

[ATP]

@ATP , how do you know who Yahweh is?

From Catholic Church,of course.He is one of persons who is part of Trinity.But - you could not take that from NT,becouse there Jahwe is God,and Jesus Messiah/prophet/maybe angel.

Of course,i belive that HE is GOD - but,it could not be proved ny NT alone,like you are trying to say.

Here,another proof:


Acts 10:36-43



36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Peter again - and Jesus here is Lord of all anointed with Holy Spirit and power,raised by God,judge of living and dead,and we could recerived forgivness thanks to HIM.

Still,not God - and everything what HE could do is attributed to Messiah.Who supposed to be man,not God.

You knew,we could continue til Act end,and start with Paul letters.At least real one.

 

[Stargazer]

Nope.
According to your logic,Jahwe raised himself from dead,then made himself sit of his own right hand,and then made himself Prince and savior.
You are indeed funny.

According to your logic, Jesus didn't create the heavens and the earth, Jesus isn't Savior, and Jesus isn't God. You have no room to mock anyone's logic, dude.

Now,another citation:


Acts 9:17-22




17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength.
Saul in Damascus and Jerusalem
Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus. 20 At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God. 21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, “Isn’t he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn’t he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?” 22 Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah.

There is no Peter here,but for Ananias Jesus is Lord,not God,and for Paul Messiah,again not God.

I really could made it to the end of NT - and find proofs tat i am right and you are wrong - that Jesus was not considered as God,but somebody else.
Not problem for me,but you must keep to Bible only.

You are making up the "not God" part. You are making. It. Up. The text doesn't say that, and what the text does say isn't mutually exclusive with the idea of Jesus being God. You don't seem to be able to separate logical categories and actually comprehend what you're reading. In fact, traditionally "Lord" is used to mean "God". To reference the Athanasian Creed - which is part of your tradition -

"So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord."

So, thank you for providing another proof from the New Testament that Jesus is God!

From Catholic Church,of course.He is one of persons who is part of Trinity.But - you could not take that from NT,becouse there Jahwe is God,and Jesus Messiah/prophet/maybe angel.

I don't believe you. I literally don't believe you. You have yet to cite a single source of Catholic Church tradition that says Yahweh is one of the persons of the Trinity. You don't know actual Catholic belief and tradition, you are just talking out of your ass.

Of course,i belive that HE is GOD - but,it could not be proved ny NT alone,like you are trying to say.

Are John, Titus, Hebrews,and 2 Peter part of the New Testament, ATP?

Here,another proof:


Acts 10:36-43



36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached— 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Peter again - and Jesus here is Lord of all anointed with Holy Spirit and power,raised by God,judge of living and dead,and we could recerived forgivness thanks to HIM.

Still,not God - and everything what HE could do is attributed to Messiah.Who supposed to be man,not God.

You knew,we could continue til Act end,and start with Paul letters.At least real one.

You are still completely making up the "not God" part. I don't see "not God" anywhere in the passage. You aren't "proving" anything, you are talking out of your ass.

And again, if Jesus is Lord of all, that makes him God, since there is only one Lord, according to your own tradition. Thanks for another proof from the New Testament that Jesus is God!

Edit: actually, let's go a little deeper in the linguistics, here. The word Peter uses here for "Lord" is "Κύριος", "kyrios".

"Κύριος" is the word that is used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament in place of "Yahweh". If you were speaking Greek and you wanted to say "Yahweh", you would say "Κύριος".

You literally provided an example of Peter calling Jesus "Yahweh" in Greek.

The New Testament teaches that Jesus is God and that Jesus is Yahweh.

 

[ATP]

He's got this weird mishmash of Arian and Marcionite interpretation of Scripture, a modernist rejection of the validity, consistency, and authority of Scripture, a hardcore papist devotion to "tradition" combined with flagrant ignorance of what that tradition actually teaches, and ignorance of the history of Christian belief in general. It's an absolute incoherent mess, a real JW would have a field day with him.

Made thread about how bad papist @ATP is,i do not care.You could cry more there.
Your thread is about Yahwe being Jesus,and how NT support it.

Well,it not support it at all - becouse i start searching from Acts,and so far Apostles considered Jesus by anybody,but not God.

Here another :


Acts 11:16-18



16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

See - Jesus is Lord,not God here.God is person who gave Holy Spirit to Apostles and later gentiles,not Jesus.

 

[Scottty]

I think ATP is just trolling us. There's no way anyone could really think those passages deny Jesus' Deity. There's just no way to get that out of those texts.

And of course he just ignores the passages that do plainly teach that Jesus is God. When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am" - everyone there at the time got it, that He was claiming the Name of God for Himself. But maybe people like ATP aren't allowed to read the Gospel of John.

 

[Stargazer]

Made thread about how bad papist @ATP is,i do not care.You could cry more there.
Your thread is about Yahwe being Jesus,and how NT support it.

Well,it not support it at all - becouse i start searching from Acts,and so far Apostles considered Jesus by anybody,but not God.

Here another :


Acts 11:16-18



16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

See - Jesus is Lord,not God here.God is person who gave Holy Spirit to Apostles and later gentiles,not Jesus.

Oh cool, another example of Peter referring to Jesus as Lord, "κυριου". That is, of Peter calling Jesus "Yahweh". Another example that the New Testament teaches that Jesus is Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament. Are you sure you know English? Is there some miscommunication, do you really mean that the New Testament does teach that Jesus is Yahweh? Because that's what you're proving.

I think ATP is just trolling us. There's no way anyone could really think those passages deny Jesus' Deity. There's just no way to get that out of those texts.

And of course he just ignores the passages that do plainly teach that Jesus is God. When Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am" - everyone there at the time got it, that He was claiming the Name of God for Himself. But maybe people like ATP aren't allowed to read the Gospel of John.

Or he's just that dumb.

 

[Scottty]

But since he seems to love the Book of Acts...

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.

So who, according to the Apostle Peter, poured forth the Holy Spirit at Pentecost?
Jesus.

 

[Scottty]

Or he's just that dumb.

Normally, it's the Protestants arguing that Roman Catholic teaching contradicts the Scriptures, and the Papists refusing to see the plain meaning of the Bible verses being quoted.
I've never before seen one of them openly say "we don't care what the Bible says, we have Tradition". Normally they'll insist that the Bible be interpreted to fit with their dogmas, or spew squid-ink and dodge the topic, or start making threats, or just ragequit from the debate.

Example: Jesus telling His disciples "do not call anyone father, for One is your Father in heaven". Just watch the blast doors of Orwellian "crimestop" slam down in the Papist's mind! And the refusal to see the logical application of that text.

Now here we've got us a "muh Tradition" type who is himself arguing that his denomination's teaching is unbiblical! And we're the ones trying to get him to see that on this point at least, it isn't.
This is so upside-down. But at least one thing I recognize - a Papist pretending the Bible says things it doesn't, and refusing to see what it does say.

 

[ATP]

@ATP what use is all that church tradition to you, if you are so ignorant of what it says?

Or if you treat it like you obviously do the Bible, waving away any part of it that says things you've made up your mind that it can't say?

Tradition - read nicean Credo.
And this tread is about NT proving that Jesus is Jahwe - which is wrong.I knew that Jesus is God and part of Trinity - but it is not from NT.

Here,another citation:


Acts 13:23-39



23 “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. 24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. 25 As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not the one you are looking for. But there is one coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’

26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28 Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

32 “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
“‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.’[a]

34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,
“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’[b]

35 So it is also stated elsewhere:
“‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’[c]

36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

See - Jesus is Savior raised by God,not God.
And son of God,but ,again,not named as God
And through HIM we are free from every sin - but again,not God.

But here,at least,you could try to imply that it means that Jesus is God.


You claim that NT show that Jesus is God and Jahwe - if it was true,Apostles would say so.
Instead,they declare HIM as messiah,prophet,savior - but never God,not mention claim that Jesus is Jahwe.

 

[Stargazer]

.
You claim that NT show that Jesus is God and Jahwe - if it was true,Apostles would say so.
Instead,they declare HIM as messiah,prophet,savior - but never God,not mention claim that Jesus is Jahwe.

Oh for the love of... All that's left to say was best said by Inigo.

 

[Scottty]

Apparently ATP thinks that Jesus being human means He cannot also be Divine.

Notice how he just ignores the Bible passages that teach Jesus' Deity.

 

[Stargazer]

Since @ATP mentioned the Nicene Creed, here's the full text:

I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen

Notice something? No mention of Yahweh as a person of the trinity. Jesus is called "Lord", "Κύριον", the word used for Yahweh in Greek. And the Holy Spirit is also called the Lord, "Κύριον". But no mention of "Yahweh" alone as a person of the Trinity.

Notice one other thing though - it says the Holy Spirit "has spoken through the Prophets". Who are the Prophets? Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. The authors of the Old Testament Scriptures. @ATP , your own tradition says God has spoken through the Prophets. You are denying your own tradition when you say things like the Old Testament "was written by people who could make mistakes and didn't understand facts". The Old Testament is what God spoke through the Prophets. I don't think it's a good idea to dismiss or ignore what God has spoken, do you?

God spoke through Isaiah to say that he is one God, Yahweh, and that there is no one beside him. The Nicene Creed affirms there is one God. The one God the Nicene Creed describes is the one God who spoke through Isaiah, Yahweh. He is the Trinity. God is the Father, God is the Lord Jesus Christ, and God is the Holy Spirit. Yahweh is the Father, Yahweh is the Lord Jesus Christ, and Yahweh is the Holy Spirit. That is the whole dogma that the Nicene Creed affirms. So for you to suggest that saying Jesus is Yahweh is somehow "new heresy" is just...you really do not know what you are talking about. You are the heretic to deny that, even by the tradition of the Roman Catholic church.