United States Discussion of Snowden, Assange and government secret keeping in general

[Terthna]

NSA, CIA, and other inteligence services are the dogs of the american people. This is not an insult they are expected to be the defenders of the american people and their interests, and they are allowed and even expected to do shady shit in their mission statement of protecting the ameircan people.

Where you stand on the snowden issue is ultimantly based on a singular question.

Do the spooks serve the american people or do they serve themselves? And have they gone rabid?

If the intel comunity serves the american people then what snowden did was strait up treason.

If they serve themselves instead of the american people then some of what he did was good and some of it was bad, a mixed bag where the intel comunity needs to be put into check and and snowden needs to anser for his fuck ups even if well intentioned.

If the intel community has gone rabid, then their a bigger danger to the american people then enemy governments. If that's the case then what he did was an unmidigated good and what is required to fix things will be incredibly ugly.

I pray its not number 3.

If it's not number 3, I will eat my entire collection of hats. At this point, I'm of the opinion that our entire intelligence community needs to be sent to the unemployment line, and barred from ever working for the government again; in any capacity. Some of them probably also deserve to be thrown into the deepest, darkest pits we have; but we'd need a thorough investigation to figure out who.

If the government had gotten wind of what he was planning before it went public? Absolutely, at best (from his perspective) he would have been arrested for espionage, convicted, and thrown in jail for decades without it getting more than a blip in a few newspapers. More likely he would have been grabbed, sweated for any deadman switches or the like, and then (depending on the degree of sweating that had been required) either been tried & convicted or have a "boating accident".

Once he went public though, the entire equation changes. The information is already out there and, more importantly, the eyes of the public are on him. You don't disappear photogenic US citizens inside the US after they publicly out you for spying on US citizens; the damage when that inevitably leaks far outweighs the damage from it being known that the NSA is spying on people.

Arrest him, charge him with violating the relevant laws, and then either convict or acquit him. It's the least damaging option.

In truth, politically speaking, Snowden did the US a huge boon by fleeing to China and then Russia. He let the US government avoid the spectacle of a trial, he wasn't around to be called as a witness by Congressional committees, he wasn't easily available to the US media networks and convention circuit. And, most importantly of all, he made it so very easy for him to be called a traitor and betrayer.

Out only the NSA's actual crimes (spying on US citizens inside the US) and then stay in the US for a trial and he would have been basically bulletproof.

Instead he outed a whole host of legitimate US intelligence operations, fled to China and then Russia, and bought safety with both US state secrets and intelligence tools. If Snowden ever ends up in US custody, he will still get a public trial but he will also get life in prison out of it. Just to make things legally clean, they probably wouldn't even charge him with leaking that the NSA spied on US citizens.

I don't know; considering everything the establishment has pulled and gotten away with, I wouldn't put killing Snowden past them. Especially not after what happened to Jeffrey Epstein. There is also no evidence to suggest he sold us out to either China or Russia; and no, him having fled to those countries does not count. Embarrassing our government is justification enough for them helping him.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

I'm pretty sure Snowden saw something interesting at work, LARP'd his way down the rabbit hole, and then imagined all the what if's that can happen in movies to people that delve too deeply.

He's a traitor because he, as @Zachowon said, caused material harm to the United States and its people. That's not in doubt at all, and on record. If he didn't do this, then he would be a hero.

He's a traitor b/c he ran away from the very confrontation that would have given him the cover of 'legitimate whistleblower.'

 

[Bacle]

I'm pretty sure Snowden saw something interesting at work, LARP'd his way down the rabbit hole, and then imagined all the what if's that can happen in movies to people that delve too deeply.

He's a traitor because he, as @Zachowon said, caused material harm to the United States and its people. That's not in doubt at all, and on record. If he didn't do this, then he would be a hero.

He's a traitor b/c he ran away from the very confrontation that would have given him the cover of 'legitimate whistleblower.'

He would have been Epstein'd or just disappeared if he'd tried to do things the 'proper' way.

At best he would have been given the Bradley Manning treatment and been abused and sleep deprived under guise of suicide watch, with the military doing everything possible to bury what he exposed, before they bury him in show trial and get the CIA to make the media networks comply with thier narrative.

 

[King Arts]

I'm pretty sure Snowden saw something interesting at work, LARP'd his way down the rabbit hole, and then imagined all the what if's that can happen in movies to people that delve too deeply.

He's a traitor because he, as @Zachowon said, caused material harm to the United States and its people. That's not in doubt at all, and on record. If he didn't do this, then he would be a hero.

He's a traitor b/c he ran away from the very confrontation that would have given him the cover of 'legitimate whistleblower.'

He is a traitor to the American government maybe if he actually owed them loyalty. But he did not cause any harm to the American people.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

He would have been Epstein'd or just disappeared if he'd tried to do things the 'proper' way.

You don't know that.

 

[Zachowon]

Manning didnt get Epstiened.

 

[Bacle]

You don't know that.

And you do not know they would not try that shit, but Snowden reasonably could assume that was what would happen if he tried the 'proper channels'.

Perhaps take a step back from seeing this as a treason from the military perspective, and understand Snowden from the civies perspective, in context of the Patriot Act and War on Terror's overreach and violations of our Constitutional Rights.

Snowden us a traitor the same way Charlie Chaplain was, who was also driven out of the country by intel agencies, except Snowden did something a bit more impactful in regards to public discourse.

Manning didnt get Epstiened.

No, he just got abused under guise of suicide watch.

 

[Zachowon]

And you do not know they would not try that shit, but Snowden reasonably could assume that was what would happen if he tried the 'proper channels'.

Perhaps take a step back from seeing this as a treason from the military perspective, and understand Snowden from the civies perspective, in context of the Patriot Act and War on Terror's overreach and violations of our Constitutional Rights.

Snowden us a traitor the same way Charlie Chaplain was, who was also driven out of the country by intel agencies, except Snowden did something a bit more impactful in regards to public discourse.
No, he just got abused under guise of suicide watch.

What? No he didnt

 

[Bacle]

What? No he didnt

Yes, yes he did, and the news about it came out 10 years ago.

Stripped naked every night, Bradley Manning tells of prison ordeal

US soldier held on suspicion of leaking state secrets speaks out for first time about experience

www.theguardian.com

 

[Zachowon]

Yes, yes he did, and the news about it came out 10 years ago.

Stripped naked every night, Bradley Manning tells of prison ordeal

US soldier held on suspicion of leaking state secrets speaks out for first time about experience

www.theguardian.com

He still is alive and became a radical tranny leftist.
he also caused sources to die and should have been put on firing squad.

But getting beat up, oh poor baby.

 

[Bacle]

He still is alive and became a radical tranny leftist.
he also caused sources to die and should have been put on firing squad.

But getting beat up, oh poor baby.

Oh, so now you aren't denying he was abused in violation of his rights, and instead insisting he deserved it?

I may not like Manning for the Rad-Left crap, but that does not change the fact he was abused by his jailors in violation of his rights.

 

[Abhishekm]

No joke, is Zachowan a glowie?

 

[Zachowon]

Oh, so now you aren't denying he was abused in violation of his rights, and instead insisting he deserved it?

I may not like Manning for the Rad-Left crap, but that does not change the fact he was abused by his jailors in violation of his rights.

I still will deny it because he would claim anything he could to make himself seem better.
HE STILL didn't get epstiened.
He was always a rad left piece of trash.
You do know he gave up some of his rights when he joined the military right? 4th amendment? Doesnt exist. plenty of them are basically denied. The argument can be made they were interigating him to try and figure out more info on what he leaked.
All we have is his word. I would rather die then take his word and his word alone

 

[Bacle]

I still will deny it because he would claim anything he could to make himself seem better.
HE STILL didn't get epstiened.
He was always a rad left piece of trash.
You do know he gave up some of his rights when he joined the military right? 4th amendment? Doesnt exist. plenty of them are basically denied. The argument can be made they were interigating him to try and figure out more info on what he leaked.
All we have is his word. I would rather die then take his word and his word alone

The treatment of Gitmo detainees had many instances of treatment like Manning got, and we only know because the lawyers would not quit trying to expose the abuse at Gitmo, so I see little reason to doubt that Manning was abused as the article said he was.

No joke, is Zachowan a glowie?

He was Army intel at one point, but does something else now, so he's kinda a semi-glowie.

 

[Zachowon]

The treatment of Gitmo detainees had many instances of treatment like Manning got, and we only know because the lawyers would not quit trying to expose the abuse at Gitmo, so I see little reason to doubt that Manning was abused as the article said he was.
He was Army intel at one point, but does something else now, so he's kinda a semi-glowie.

Manning caused some major issues for innocents.

I still am in the Army doing Intel.

 

[Bacle]

Manning caused some major issues for innocents.

I still am in the Army doing Intel.

Manning did expose some agents, and that wasn't great.

But the danger posed by a rogue intel community is a greater risk to the US Constitution and public than any foreign power, at least below the level of stuff like the Wu Flu getting loose.

 

[Rocinante]

No joke, is Zachowan a glowie?

In quite literal sense, yes.

Not saying anything insulting. He is LITERALLY a glowie.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

He still is alive and became a radical tranny leftist.
he also caused sources to die and should have been put on firing squad.

But getting beat up, oh poor baby.

He probably went insane due to the abuse he suffered.

And no he didn't. He stood up against a corrupt intelligence apparatus. The only people who deserve a firing squad are actual traitors.

Again, I take no real issue with his outing the fact that the NSA was spying on US citizens in contravention of US law.

So you don't oppose spying on one's own citizens on moral grounds- merely because it is illegal?

No, spying on world leaders is explicitly the mission of the NSA. There are four nations that the US has agreed specifically not to spy on without their permission; UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Everyone else the NSA is supposed to spy on. That includes Germany.

Then maybe it shouldn't. You literally have no reason to spy on nations that are friendly and have no malice towards you. All it serves to do is piss your allies off and ruin your diplomatic reputation when you get caught.

Spying on Germany didn't harm the US. Getting caught spying on Germany because a traitor published the information to the world did material harm to US diplomatic efforts. The one responsible is the traitor who published the information.

And bluntly speaking, it didn't take Snowden moral courage to out that fact. What would have taken moral courage was to publicly stand before the US justice system after outing the fact that the NSA was spying on US citizens and faced a jury of his peers. Instead he decided to flee to China and Russia and by his life with US state secrets.

Translation: Us doing it is not the problem, us getting caught is! And no, the spy is responsible. Since there are other ways it could get out, such as actually being caught. If we follow your logic to its own conclusion, then anyone catching American spies in the act are the ones responsible. Which is patently absurd. The only person responsible for an action is the person who is doing it. You are trying to deflect responsibility. Snowden is not responsible for calling out wrongdoing, the only person responsible is the wrongdoer!

We all know if he didn't flee he'd get the Arkancide treatment. There is no cowardice from fleeing unjust punishment or being murdered by tyrants.

Snowden betrayed every oath he ever took. His actions caused the death of US intelligence assets, materially reduced the US's ability to spy on its enemies, materially improved the intelligence capabilities of US enemies, materially harmed US diplomatic efforts, materially harmed US intelligence operations, and were flatly illegal under the laws of any nation you care to name in all of history.

You can say that all you like, but the only loyalty he owed was to your constitution and your people. And in my eyes is plenty loyal.

The NSA is expressly chartered by Congress to spy on every bit of electronic data outside of the US. Spying on the German Chancellor, for example, is not just within their remit but literally what the agency was created to do. Snowden knew this going in, swore the oaths, and then decided to publish this information to the world.

You shouldn't spy on your allies, except in certain special cases like commie infiltration or them not having a good apparatus of their own and thus needing protection. Snowden did nothing wrong, he called out their wrongdoing and backstabbing.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

You should spy on your allies because if you don't you'll always be reacting. Not too mention getting blindsided.

 

[Zachowon]

You should spy on your allies because if you don't you'll always be reacting. Not too mention getting blindsided.

Ahh you see, they are our allies.