United States Discussion of Snowden, Assange and government secret keeping in general

Abhishekm

Well-known member
Figured immigration as well make a threat for the rees. I for one am for knowing anything people with big titles don't want me to just on the principle of the matter. Can't say the basis of my opinion is deeper than that.

Snowden does look like a little shit though so I can get the hate too. Assange just looks like a case of idealist didn't realize just how shitty people were when he got into it situation.
 

Abhishekm

Well-known member
Snowden is a hack who knows nothing and tried to claim he does.

That is all.
On one had he does seem to have a very punchable face. On the other so does every politician that seems to hate him.

So again meh on the guy himself. On the stuff he let out maybe jts not being an American but kinda have to support the guy for showing Bush Junior, Barrack and their governments were creeps that got their jellies off peeping on others.

I mean I already assume that about Indian politicians and government staff so I can't even say I'd feel different if I was American.

Its kinda a given that EVERY government is run by creeps but its nice to have someone come out then and again to confirm it.
 
Call for any Links on the topics

Abhishekm

Well-known member
All that said anyone got any good post or articles and timeliness to the entire Snowden-Assange kerfuffle we could link here?

Because let's face it how many peoples opinions are really based on have looked into the entire thing instead of either hearing either;

"Traitor reveals government secrets, Endangers lives and breaching confidentiality!"

Or

"Hero reveals government secrets endangering lives and breaching privacy!"
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Snowden is viewed as a hero because most of the people he 'harmed' were in the intel community, which isn't terribly liked by any segment of the public anymore after the bullshit with Iraq and the Patriot Act (among others incidents), and most Americans are not interested in allowing breaches of our Constitutional Rights in the name of 'intel community reasons'.

Assange is someone who was trying to do the right thing in a kinda naive fashion, but tweaked the noses of the rich and power too many times.

No one should be under the illusion our intel services serve anyone but themselves and their own interests, to the point they seem to be actively trying to craft American domestic policy and politics through their domestic actions over the last few years.

Its another thing to be thankful to Trump for; he forced a lot of masks to drop and exposed a lot of the corruption, graft, and maleficence in the US gov.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Snowden is a hack who knows nothing and tried to claim he does.

That is all.
You know, the fact that you keep jumping into this discussion every time it's brought up, only to run away once people start confronting your position; it's not a good look. It happening once or twice might have convinced people that you actually know something we don't, but can't tell us; but after over a dozen times of this happening? I don't know what would be worse; that someone in your position is just that impulsive, or that you're using the clandestine nature of it as a smokescreen.

Either way, I see no reason to listen to a word you say about this subject. So please; stop talking about it.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
You know, the fact that you keep jumping into this discussion every time it's brought up, only to run away once people start confronting your position; it's not a good look. It happening once or twice might have convinced people that you actually know something we don't, but can't tell us; but after over a dozen times of this happening? I don't know what would be worse; that someone in your position is just that impulsive, or that you're using the clandestine nature of it as a smokescreen.

Either way, I see no reason to listen to a word you say about this subject. So please; stop talking about it.
This one was more of me just wanting to sbit on him more so then other times.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Snowden is a traitor who should be shot for his crimes. He gave both the Chinese and Russians critical US national security and intel data to buy his asylum.

Assange is an idiot that the US would have been better off ignoring as him spending years hanging out in the Embassy and the US just shrugging their shoulders when he left would have utterly discredited him (more than he already was).
 

Hlaalu Agent

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Founder
Snowden is a traitor who should be shot for his crimes. He gave both the Chinese and Russians critical US national security and intel data to buy his asylum.

Assange is an idiot that the US would have been better off ignoring as him spending years hanging out in the Embassy and the US just shrugging their shoulders when he left would have utterly discredited him (more than he already was).

Keep telling yourself that if that helps you sleep at night. And you are wrong, he is not a traitor. The people spying on the American public and making war on them are the traitors.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Keep telling yourself that if that helps you sleep at night. And you are wrong, he is not a traitor. The people spying on the American public and making war on them are the traitors.
If all Snowden had done was out that the NSA was spying on US citizens then that would be one thing; it wasn't.

Spying on Merkel's cell phone for example? That was 100% what the NSA should have been doing and outing that was straight up worthy of a long prison sentence.

And then there is what makes him a traitor; he gave both the Russians and the Chinese US intel means and methods along with US intel algorithms and hacking tools. That is straight up treason.

And this all ignores the exceptional reputational harm that he did to the US and US diplomacy. That alone warrants a long jail sentence given the oaths he violated and laws he broke in the process.
 

Hlaalu Agent

Nerevar going to let you down
Founder
If all Snowden had done was out that the NSA was spying on US citizens then that would be one thing; it wasn't.

Spying on Merkel's cell phone for example? That was 100% what the NSA should have been doing and outing that was straight up worthy of a long prison sentence.

And then there is what makes him a traitor; he gave both the Russians and the Chinese US intel means and methods along with US intel algorithms and hacking tools. That is straight up treason.

And this all ignores the exceptional reputational harm that he did to the US and US diplomacy. That alone warrants a long jail sentence given the oaths he violated and laws he broke in the process.

So, he should have let them get away with things they shouldn't be doing or otherwise he is a traitor. Got it.

So spying on an actual ally and partner is something you should do. No, I am pretty sure spying on your allies is a bad idea, because it can be found out and is a breach of trust. The NSA was doing wrong, and he did the right thing by revealing it.

He didn't do any harm, it was the actions of the NSA. You are blaming a man for the actions of others, because he had the moral courage to reveal it. If anything then, the NSA are the traitors who are acting against the welfare of the American people- which they actually are.

He didn't betray anyone, except for the actual traitors. His loyalty is to the American people and the Constitution, not to the entrenched establishment. You know the very people plotting against the American people and against the Constitution, which is actual treason.

edit: To explain better my position. By plotting against the American people, I mean things like: using the IRA (worst IRA and I say this as a pro-Britain type) abusing its power to attack conservative organizations, events like Waco where the feds go in and murder everyone Anakin style, they spy on the people, falsely lock up patriots and then abuse them horribly, send the sons and daughters of your nation to die in pointless forever wars in the Middle East, shoot their dogs for lulz, they also aid and abet people burning your cities down and more.
 
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Emperor Tippy

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So, he should have let them get away with things they shouldn't be doing or otherwise he is a traitor. Got it.
Again, I take no real issue with his outing the fact that the NSA was spying on US citizens in contravention of US law.

So spying on an actual ally and partner is something you should do. No, I am pretty sure spying on your allies is a bad idea, because it can be found out and is a breach of trust. The NSA was doing wrong, and he did the right thing by revealing it.
No, spying on world leaders is explicitly the mission of the NSA. There are four nations that the US has agreed specifically not to spy on without their permission; UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Everyone else the NSA is supposed to spy on. That includes Germany.

He didn't do any harm, it was the actions of the NSA. You are blaming a man for the actions of others, because he had the moral courage to reveal it. If anything then, the NSA are the traitors who are acting against the welfare of the American people- which they actually are.
Spying on Germany didn't harm the US. Getting caught spying on Germany because a traitor published the information to the world did material harm to US diplomatic efforts. The one responsible is the traitor who published the information.

And bluntly speaking, it didn't take Snowden moral courage to out that fact. What would have taken moral courage was to publicly stand before the US justice system after outing the fact that the NSA was spying on US citizens and faced a jury of his peers. Instead he decided to flee to China and Russia and by his life with US state secrets.

He didn't betray anyone, except for the actual traitors. His loyalty is to the American people and the Constitution, not to the entrenched establishment. You know the very people plotting against the American people and against the Constitution, which is actual treason.

edit: To explain better my position. By plotting against the American people, I mean things like: using the IRA (worst IRA and I say this as a pro-Britain type) abusing its power to attack conservative organizations, events like Waco where the feds go in and murder everyone Anakin style, they spy on the people, falsely lock up patriots and then abuse them horribly, send the sons and daughters of your nation to die in pointless forever wars in the Middle East, shoot their dogs for lulz, they also aid and abet people burning your cities down and more.
Snowden betrayed every oath he ever took. His actions caused the death of US intelligence assets, materially reduced the US's ability to spy on its enemies, materially improved the intelligence capabilities of US enemies, materially harmed US diplomatic efforts, materially harmed US intelligence operations, and were flatly illegal under the laws of any nation you care to name in all of history.

The NSA is expressly chartered by Congress to spy on every bit of electronic data outside of the US. Spying on the German Chancellor, for example, is not just within their remit but literally what the agency was created to do. Snowden knew this going in, swore the oaths, and then decided to publish this information to the world.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Again, I take no real issue with his outing the fact that the NSA was spying on US citizens in contravention of US law.


No, spying on world leaders is explicitly the mission of the NSA. There are four nations that the US has agreed specifically not to spy on without their permission; UK, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Everyone else the NSA is supposed to spy on. That includes Germany.


Spying on Germany didn't harm the US. Getting caught spying on Germany because a traitor published the information to the world did material harm to US diplomatic efforts. The one responsible is the traitor who published the information.

And bluntly speaking, it didn't take Snowden moral courage to out that fact. What would have taken moral courage was to publicly stand before the US justice system after outing the fact that the NSA was spying on US citizens and faced a jury of his peers. Instead he decided to flee to China and Russia and by his life with US state secrets.


Snowden betrayed every oath he ever took. His actions caused the death of US intelligence assets, materially reduced the US's ability to spy on its enemies, materially improved the intelligence capabilities of US enemies, materially harmed US diplomatic efforts, materially harmed US intelligence operations, and were flatly illegal under the laws of any nation you care to name in all of history.

The NSA is expressly chartered by Congress to spy on every bit of electronic data outside of the US. Spying on the German Chancellor, for example, is not just within their remit but literally what the agency was created to do. Snowden knew this going in, swore the oaths, and then decided to publish this information to the world.
The US justice system would have put Snowden in the grave or Gitmo, not in a public trial with an open court, and you damn well know it.
 

Emperor Tippy

Merchant of Death
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The US justice system would have put Snowden in the grave or Gitmo, not in a public trial with an open court, and you damn well know it.
Nope, not a chance in hell. He was too public and the political situation at the time meant that Obama trying to do that would have destroyed the Democrats politically.

Snowden had, and has, a constitutional right to a public jury trial. More importantly, you time the release of the info with interviews getting put up on the air and basically every media source where he flatly denies that he has any interest in committing suicide and basically calling out the government on attempting to black bag him.

It was too public, far easier to arrest him and then give him an open, public, trial using only the information that he has published. Snowden would have likely won in court on outing the NSA spying on US citizens. It wouldn't change anything, I mean the NSA is going to keep doing that regardless of what the courts, laws, or public thinks about it, but a jury wouldn't have convicted on that.

What would have seen him crucified is everything else that he leaked. Because all the rest? It was not just legal and congressionally authorized but explicitly and expressly what the NSA was supposed to be doing.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Nope, not a chance in hell. He was too public and the political situation at the time meant that Obama trying to do that would have destroyed the Democrats politically.

Snowden had, and has, a constitutional right to a public jury trial. More importantly, you time the release of the info with interviews getting put up on the air and basically every media source where he flatly denies that he has any interest in committing suicide and basically calling out the government on attempting to black bag him.

It was too public, far easier to arrest him and then give him an open, public, trial using only the information that he has published. Snowden would have likely won in court on outing the NSA spying on US citizens. It wouldn't change anything, I mean the NSA is going to keep doing that regardless of what the courts, laws, or public thinks about it, but a jury wouldn't have convicted on that.

What would have seen him crucified is everything else that he leaked. Because all the rest? It was not just legal and congressionally authorized but explicitly and expressly what the NSA was supposed to be doing.
My god, do you actually believe that?!

That's genuinely hilarious.

Snowden would have disappeared or been Epstein'd before any court case could really get underway if he stayed in the US, the media would have kept mum about it because thier bosses would have told them too, and nothing would have changed.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
NSA, CIA, and other inteligence services are the dogs of the american people. This is not an insult they are expected to be the defenders of the american people and their interests, and they are allowed and even expected to do shady shit in their mission statement of protecting the ameircan people.

Where you stand on the snowden issue is ultimantly based on a singular question.

Do the spooks serve the american people or do they serve themselves? And have they gone rabid?

If the intel comunity serves the american people then what snowden did was strait up treason.

If they serve themselves instead of the american people then some of what he did was good and some of it was bad, a mixed bag where the intel comunity needs to be put into check and and snowden needs to anser for his fuck ups even if well intentioned.

If the intel community has gone rabid, then their a bigger danger to the american people then enemy governments. If that's the case then what he did was an unmidigated good and what is required to fix things will be incredibly ugly.

I pray its not number 3.
 

Emperor Tippy

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My god, do you actually believe that?!

That's genuinely hilarious.

Snowden would have disappeared or been Epstein'd before any court case could really get underway if he stayed in the US, the media would have kept mum about it because thier bosses would have told them too, and nothing would have changed.

If the government had gotten wind of what he was planning before it went public? Absolutely, at best (from his perspective) he would have been arrested for espionage, convicted, and thrown in jail for decades without it getting more than a blip in a few newspapers. More likely he would have been grabbed, sweated for any deadman switches or the like, and then (depending on the degree of sweating that had been required) either been tried & convicted or have a "boating accident".

Once he went public though, the entire equation changes. The information is already out there and, more importantly, the eyes of the public are on him. You don't disappear photogenic US citizens inside the US after they publicly out you for spying on US citizens; the damage when that inevitably leaks far outweighs the damage from it being known that the NSA is spying on people.

Arrest him, charge him with violating the relevant laws, and then either convict or acquit him. It's the least damaging option.

In truth, politically speaking, Snowden did the US a huge boon by fleeing to China and then Russia. He let the US government avoid the spectacle of a trial, he wasn't around to be called as a witness by Congressional committees, he wasn't easily available to the US media networks and convention circuit. And, most importantly of all, he made it so very easy for him to be called a traitor and betrayer.

Out only the NSA's actual crimes (spying on US citizens inside the US) and then stay in the US for a trial and he would have been basically bulletproof.

Instead he outed a whole host of legitimate US intelligence operations, fled to China and then Russia, and bought safety with both US state secrets and intelligence tools. If Snowden ever ends up in US custody, he will still get a public trial but he will also get life in prison out of it. Just to make things legally clean, they probably wouldn't even charge him with leaking that the NSA spied on US citizens.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
If the intel community has gone rabid, then their a bigger danger to the american people then enemy governments. If that's the case then what he did was an unmidigated good and what is required to fix things will be incredibly ugly.

Conservatives have a bad habit of saying something obviously true but and then adding something to the effect of "wow, that'd be really bad though so I'm going to hope it's not that."

Arrest him, charge him with violating the relevant laws, and then either convict or acquit him. It's the least damaging option.

In truth, politically speaking, Snowden did the US a huge boon by fleeing to China and then Russia. He let the US government avoid the spectacle of a trial, he wasn't around to be called as a witness by Congressional committees, he wasn't easily available to the US media networks and convention circuit. And, most importantly of all, he made it so very easy for him to be called a traitor and betrayer.

We saw what happened with a fairly similar situation with Bradley Manning. It was not any more effective. Granted, Manning is a tranny and so not as photogenic and that's going to play into it, but something I think you're forgetting here is that the Obama administration did not have any real opposition at the time on Snowden. The GOP politician and talking head position was pretty much "I can't believe the Obama administration is saying that he should return to the US to face trial, if it were up to me he'd be drawn and quartered without trial and then stuck in Guantanamo bay!"
 

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