Derek Chauvin Trial: summer 2020 electric boogaloo

[StormEagle]

A picture that’s apparently being used by the defense. Sourced from the Kiwis though so...eh?

If this picture is real, that sure looks like he had his knee on Floyd’s upper back.

Which I think would rule out the possibility of a blood choke, correct?

 

[Rocinante]

A picture that’s apparently being used by the defense. Sourced from the Kiwis though so...eh?

If this picture is real, that sure looks like he had his knee on Floyd’s upper back.

Which I think would rule out the possibility of a blood choke, correct?

That's cutting off the carotid artery.

 

[Abhorsen]

A picture that’s apparently being used by the defense. Sourced from the Kiwis though so...eh?

If this picture is real, that sure looks like he had his knee on Floyd’s upper back.

Which I think would rule out the possibility of a blood choke, correct?

There's other pictures of the knee on the neck though. It was done for 9 minutes.

One of the difficulties will be showing that the death was caused by the cop, beyond a reasonable doubt. That's a high bar. If someone thinks "It's reasonable, though very unlikely, that the knee didn't help cause the death" then Chauvin is home free.

 

[Zachowon]

I had a training buddy apply this to me. At the right angle with the pressure in the right spots, it's ABSOLUTELY a blood choke. Even if it's not meant to be when being trained.

The pressure between the knee and floor puts enough pressure on for me to start seeing stars after it's held for a bit.

You do know I have actually had to learn something similar right and it definitely is not a blood choke. Especially the position he is in is something they taught us to restrain inmates

So they aren't charging him with a air choke (much more dangerous), but with a blood choke, which allows air to flow and people to talk, but cuts off blood (and thus oxygen) from the brain.

And the official autopsy found that he was dead because of the overdose plus police action:


If the pressure on the neck contributed to the death (IANAL, so idk how much it needs to contribute. Maybe it needs to be "absent this, he would have lived", or maybe its "his actions directly contributed to the death." I don't know.), then a conviction for depraved heart murder (he didn't seem to care if Floyd lived or died) is pretty easy, which is 3rd degree murder in Minnesota.


It definitely was a blood choke. Also, why look at the training manual, when you can look at the picture of the actual knee on the actual neck?


We have really good pictures and video of it.

Also, it's possible that the cops were trained to use a blood choke (I haven't seen the training documents), which makes sense, they are usually safe, if not applied for 9 minutes like a crazy person.

It was not a blood choke.
It is not a choke at fuxking all

That's cutting off the carotid artery.

And I learned somethingsimialir to restrain and it wasn't a blood choke

 

[Rocinante]

You do know I have actually had to learn something similar right and it definitely is not a blood choke. Especially the position he is in is something they taught us to restrain inmates

It was not a blood choke.
It is not a choke at fuxking all

And I learned somethingsimialir to restrain and it wasn't a blood choke

If he was further back on the neck it wouldn't be a blood choke, and would be a decent way to control.

That's in too deep. It 100% looks like a blood choke to me.

It was when I tried it.

Again, that doesn't mean he intentionally held a blood choke. But yes, it certainly looks like one to me.

 

[LordsFire]

If he was further back on the neck it wouldn't be a blood choke, and would be a decent way to control.

That's in too deep. It 100% looks like a blood choke to me.

It was when I tried it.

Again, that doesn't mean he intentionally held a blood choke. But yes, it certainly looks like one to me.

If it was a blood choke, Floyd would have been unconscious in seconds. Not minutes.

Now, that's not the same thing as saying that the last 2-3 minutes he should have gotten off of him, but that's a different argument.

 

[Zachowon]

If it was a blood choke, Floyd would have been unconscious in seconds. Not minutes.

Now, that's not the same thing as saying that the last 2-3 minutes he should have gotten off of him, but that's a different argument.

He definitely was on too long, but not 9 minutes to long

 

[Rocinante]

If it was a blood choke, Floyd would have been unconscious in seconds. Not minutes.

Now, that's not the same thing as saying that the last 2-3 minutes he should have gotten off of him, but that's a different argument.

A perfectly executed blood choke takes seconds.

A looser choke, or one that isn't applied perfectly to both sides (such as maybe if one had a knee on one side but cement on the other, instead of something that would block the artery better) will take much longer than the 4-12 seconds you'll see knock someone out in a properly executed choke.

I've held on for several minutes while slowly blacking out a little more at a time. I've also been in chokes that would have put me out in like 6 seconds if I don't tap out.

There is a lot of variance of pressures that make a big difference.

 

[LordsFire]

A perfectly executed blood choke takes seconds.

A looser choke, or one that isn't applied perfectly to both sides (such as maybe if one had a knee on one side but cement on the other, instead of something that would block the artery better) will take much longer than the 4-12 seconds you'll see knock someone out in a properly executed choke.

I've held on for several minutes while slowly blacking out a little more at a time. I've also been in chokes that would have put me out in like 6 seconds if I don't tap out.

There is a lot of variance of pressures that make a big difference.

He was able to turn his head back and forth.

Beyond that, the ergonomics of the breastbone, the chin, and the neck... I am extremely dubious that it is possible for a choke-hold to be applied by pushing someone down against a flat surface in the first place. Certainly not when he can move his head that much.

 

[ShieldWife]

I’m no doctor or biologist, but it doesn’t seem like a knee on the back of the neck can get the carotid arteries:

And I’m no hand to hand expert either, but a knee on the back of the neck doesn’t like like any kind of blood choke either:

 

[Rocinante]

He was able to turn his head back and forth.

Beyond that, the ergonomics of the breastbone, the chin, and the neck... I am extremely dubious that it is possible for a choke-hold to be applied by pushing someone down against a flat surface in the first place. Certainly not when he can move his head that much.

Like I said, tried it. If you're on your side there is too much of a gap and it doesn't work, if you're on your belly like floyd was, the pressure between the knee and the floor is enough.

Worth pointing out that it didn't work on the skinny guy I tried it on. He said he felt nothing and could have laid like that indefinitely. For bigger guys, Absolutely.

 

[Rocinante]

I’m no doctor or biologist, but it doesn’t seem like a knee on the back of the neck can get the carotid arteries:

And I’m no hand to hand expert either, but a knee on the back of the neck doesn’t like like any kind of blood choke either:

The knee wasn't on the back of his neck, it was toward the middle/front.

Earlier in this thread I even pointed out that this would have probably been fine if his knee was further back.

 

[LordsFire]

Like I said, tried it. If you're on your side there is too much of a gap and it doesn't work, if you're on your belly like floyd was, the pressure between the knee and the floor is enough.

Worth pointing out that it didn't work on the skinny guy I tried it on. He said he felt nothing and could have laid like that indefinitely. For bigger guys, Absolutely.

So, I'm supposed to buy this when even your own attempt at doing this didn't work?

Let's try something anyways.

I'm a bigger guy. 6'2", ~265 pounds. I just laid myself flat down on the ground, and checked different angles and postures. Even if I was pinned in place hard enough that I couldn't move, you'd have one of three results:

1. If my face is in the dirt, it's not happening, period.
2. If my neck is straight and my chin is in the dirt, you'd literally have to break my neck first.
3. If my head was turned to the side, my breathing would be blocked long before you could apply a blood choke.

And none of these are relevant, because Floyd could move his head around, which means that nowhere near enough pressure was being applied. He was also ranting on for the majority of the time he was down.

Your position seems to be getting weaker the longer you argue for it.

 

[Rocinante]

So, I'm supposed to buy this when even your own attempt at doing this didn't work?

Let's try something anyways.

I'm a bigger guy. 6'2", ~265 pounds. I just laid myself flat down on the ground, and checked different angles and postures. Even if I was pinned in place hard enough that I couldn't move, you'd have one of three results:

1. If my face is in the dirt, it's not happening, period.
2. If my neck is straight and my chin is in the dirt, you'd literally have to break my neck first.
3. If my head was turned to the side, my breathing would be blocked long before you could apply a blood choke.

And none of these are relevant, because Floyd could move his head around, which means that nowhere near enough pressure was being applied. He was also ranting on for the majority of the time he was down.

Your position seems to be getting weaker the longer you argue for it.

Dude, you can move your head in a blood choke. That's why you're taught techniques to hold their head in place, and moving your head the right way (tucking your chin to protect the neck) is how you defend/escape them.

But most untrained people actually move the wrong way and let the choke sink in deeper.

 

[Terthna]

If this argument over whether or not that was a "blood choke" is any indication, I'm not sure the jury is going to be able to come to a consensus in this trial.

 

[Rocinante]

If this argument over whether or not that was a "blood choke" is any indication, I'm not sure the jury is going to be able to come to a consensus in this trial.

On that point, comrade, we can certainly agree.

 

[Battlegrinder]

There were several minutes where he had stopped responding entirely and you had people there saying "he's not responding you need to check his vitals" and Chauvin chose to instead remain there with his knee in the unresponsive man's neck.

I'm pretty sure that "listen to the advice of rando passerbys" is, for good reason, not part of the police training for restraining suspects. Nor is "only restrain them until they stop resisting at that very moment" or "criminals never claim to have medical problems or other issues falsely, if they claim to be having trouble you must believe them".

 

[King Arts]

I do not believe the people here are honestly defending Chauvin even his name is close to Chauvinism. Derek chauvin is a member of the modern racist version of the Klan the police who uphold white supremacy of Amerikkka and oppress blacks. Chauvin is the equivalent of a slave owner whipping and beating innocent black men like George Floyd a true saint for racial justice.

 

[Cherico]

I still don't think this was murder, man slaughter perhaps but not murder.

 

[King Arts]

I still don't think this was murder, man slaughter perhaps but not murder.

How can you not see that this is a modern day lynching! Don't you know that Chauvin and Floyd worked at the same job? Chauvin probably killed Floyd because Floyd refused to be his slave and call him Massa, and do the equivalent of modern day cotton picking for Chauvin's benefit.