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United States Confederate Statues, symbols, and memorials debate thread

Abhishekm

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I'm not. A lot of Americans aren't.
A lot more ARE. Which is honestly why this always becomes an argument. Because when one side is for keeping a quasi secularised traditional holiday and another opposes it on grounds that the history behind it is from a religion that the majority are still a part of but that group quasi opposes things arent exactly clean.

Like even the Constitutional argument goes back to "The Writers of the Constitution were dumb for having Christmas as a holiday and were violation the Constitution!" Which they wrote and is kinda iffy about it legally anyway but thats our reading of it and we are sticking with it because it supports our opinion.

Like I have minimal stake in this either way. Either a mostly wholesome and traditional day of celebration stays on a countries list of official holidays. Or there are 2 less free vacation days over paid bums get a year.

But that tear down a traditional holiday because it doesn't stick with my beliefs thing kinda rubs me wrong.
 
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Abhishekm

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So replace the federal holiday system with a legislated minimum number of paid vacation days per year to be used as the worker pleases?
Would be cleaner. People who ACTUALLY celebrate chirstmas can. And degenerates coasting off the brand can vacation in Hawaii another day of the year.
 

Bacle

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I'm not. A lot of Americans aren't.


I'm pretty indifferent about it, but I'd argue it's pretty well grandfathered in. I suppose others might push for just changing the name to some kind of more universal "winter holiday" but that would be pretty lame. Hell, I still stubbornly insist on using BC and AD for dates just because BCE and CE are lame. And there's nothing wrong with recognizing Christianity's contributions to our society, which includes the current dating system.
Yep, the Christian calenders is the most accurate dating system by far.

Personally I feel keep Christmas, but also add in Federal holidays for every major faith in the US, not just Christians. Getting Yom Kippur, Eid, Kwanza, and Sikh holidays off is a win-win as I see it.

As for the statues, @Zachowon I've decided Lee can go back up when the tide turns, but only because he turns out to have been a relative of Sir Christopher Lee and that's an accomplishment all on its own.
 

Captain X

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Christmas didn't start out as Christian ya know...
Yes, as a Roman-aboo I am aware of the Roman holiday it is based on, as well as the Scandinavian traditions that were thrown in there.

Our nation was still founded in Christian principles.
I'm not a Christian either.
It is better that we have a nation that at least recognizes a God exists then a godless commie one.
Because Commies don't beilive in freedom if religion.
:rolleyes: So you claim to want your country to recognize a deity you yourself do not. That sure makes sense (not).
 

Captain X

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A lot more ARE. Which is honestly why this always becomes an argument. Because when one side is for keeping a quasi secularised traditional holiday and another opposes it on grounds that the history behind it is from a religion that the majority are still a part of but that group quasi opposes things arent exactly clean.

Like even the Constitutional argument goes back to "The Writers of the Constitution were dumb for having Christmas as a holiday and were violation the Constitution!" Which they wrote and is kinda iffy about it legally anyway but thats our reading of it and we are sticking with it because it supports our opinion.

Like I have minimal stake in this either way. Either a mostly wholesome and traditional day of celebration stays on a countries list of official holidays. Or there are 2 less free vacation days over paid bums get a year.

But that tear down a traditional holiday because it doesn't stick with my beliefs kinda rubs me wrong.
This isn't about Christmas, this is about having a religious statement on our currency and people getting their panties in a wad because people like myself want to get rid of it.
 

Morphic Tide

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Oh, another thing to note is that weekends are religiously founded days off. The Christian majority held one day as not fit for work, Jewish bankers held an adjacent day was the one, so business just was not done on those two days.
 

Abhishekm

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This isn't about Christmas, this is about having a religious statement on our currency and people getting their panties in a wad because people like myself want to get rid of it.
And yet it devolved to "Lets Abolish Christmas" in less than 50 posts. Seriously you westerners really make the case for the slippery slope deniers a hard one.
 

Zachowon

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Yep, the Christian calenders is the most accurate dating system by far.

Personally I feel keep Christmas, but also add in Federal holidays for every major faith in the US, not just Christians. Getting Yom Kippur, Eid, Kwanza, and Sikh holidays off is a win-win as I see it.

As for the statues, @Zachowon I've decided Lee can go back up when the tide turns, but only because he turns out to have been a relative of Sir Christopher Lee and that's an accomplishment all on its own.
Is Kwanza something celebrated outside of western nations?

And dont take any statues down.
It leads to what is happening now
Yes, as a Roman-aboo I am aware of the Roman holiday it is based on, as well as the Scandinavian traditions that were thrown in there.


:rolleyes: So you claim to want your country to recognize a deity you yourself do not. That sure makes sense (not).
Does it mention a particular God?
It just says God.
This isn't about Christmas, this is about having a religious statement on our currency and people getting their panties in a wad because people like myself want to get rid of it.
Why get rid of it?
When, as S'task showed, the US has a VERY strong Christian base in i our seal.


It seems none of you understand that any if these changes would lead to a slippery slope of more first "In God we trust" then it is "Get rid of the people on them as they were slave owners" to having LGBTQ+ people on them.
 

Abhishekm

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I'd be of the opinion that any religious person should be for getting rid of the "In God we Trust" just because modern currency is a moral degenercy by the standards of every relevant religion I know.

But then the very next argument always seems to be lets get rid of that over 200 year old national tradition of having a official holiday on that one day thats important to the religion of the people who founded the country and is still the faith of the majority because fuck them! Secularism fuck yeah!

Oooh or lets add a dozen new mandatory and paid holidays from a bunch of faiths the collectively make up a single digit percentage of the countries population, has no secular tradition of celebration on them and would just be adding 2 more weeks of free vacation.

Like bitch why not just have Fridays off too. So you can include the Muslims day of prayer along with the Jewish and Christian ones. Or are you forgetting why its Saturday and Sunday that are the days off?

Ooh don't forget days off on full moon days because the Hindus have prayer then. Oh! Can't forget the eclipse days! Those are significant to Pagans!
 
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Bacle

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Is Kwanza something celebrated outside of western nations?
I've seen celebrations around it in CO's schools since I was young, and it tends to get rolled into the general holiday atmosphere.

Lots of Ethiopians and Kenyan immigrants here who celebrate Kwanza, and the Rasta's tend to share in it as well.
Does it mention a particular God?
It just says God.

Why get rid of it?
When, as S'task showed, the US has a VERY strong Christian base in i our seal.


It seems none of you understand that any if these changes would lead to a slippery slope of more first "In God we trust" then it is "Get rid of the people on them as they were slave owners" to having LGBTQ+ people on them.
'In God We Trust' was literally put on our money as an anti-Commie meme during the Cold War; it's hardly some long standing tradition.

I get the complaints of people who want it off our money, because we are a secular nation for a reason.

The Founders understood interdenominational fights between Christian sects could be very bloody, just look at Europe, and knew keeping any specific religion from getting governmemt favor was key to creating a lasting Republic.

Also, I do not see Sikhs, Jews, Wiccans, Muslims, or anyone besides Christians, demanding religious monuments be allowed on gov property or acting like the government not giving your religion favored status is 'oppression'.
 

Abhishekm

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Be honest with yourselves. Either abolish weekends too or add Friday as well as every full moon and every eclipse to your list of days to bum around.

Or quit whining about either abolishing Christmas or adding a dozen more federal days off for other religious holidays.
 

Zachowon

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I've seen celebrations around it in CO's schools since I was young, and it tends to get rolled into the general holiday atmosphere.

Lots of Ethiopians and Kenyan immigrants here who celebrate Kwanza, and the Rasta's tend to share in it as well.
'In God We Trust' was literally put on our money as an anti-Commie meme during the Cold War; it's hardly some long standing tradition.

I get the complaints of people who want it off our money, because we are a secular nation for a reason.

The Founders understood interdenominational fights between Christian sects could be very bloody, just look at Europe, and knew keeping any specific religion from getting governmemt favor was key to creating a lasting Republic.

Also, I do not see Sikhs, Jews, Wiccans, Muslims, or anyone besides Christians, demanding religious monuments be allowed on gov property or acting like the government not giving your religion favored status is 'oppression'.
I have never seen it, and the Nigerian guy I want to college with was Christian and very religious.
I never seen Kwanza celebrated. Was just asking sincerely.

Almost like Christians are the majority of the country still.
All the ones you mentioned don't even make up double digits combined.

And majority if religious monuments on government property are more then for purely religious reasons you know.
Often have some sort of historical meaning to the area.
 

Abhishekm

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Also, I do not see Sikhs, Jews, Wiccans, Muslims, or anyone besides Christians, demanding religious monuments be allowed on gov property or acting like the government not giving your religion favored status is 'oppression'.
Now thats a bit of a lie or just ignorance. Wiccans definetly have that lobbying for favors thing going on with the neo-pagan wannabes. Hindus just bring our little "monuments" with us to our jobs and work places being the proper pagans that we are. Jewish people and Muslims aren't supposed to have monuments in the first place.
 
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Zachowon

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Now thats a bit of a lie or just ignorance. Wiccans definetly have that lobbying for favors thing going on the neo-pagan wannabes. Hindus just bring our little "monuments" with us to our jobs or work places with us being the proper pagans that we are. Jewish people and Muslims aren't supposed to have monuments in the first place.
This is also true.
Most Wiccans that are true to Wicca have everything they need at home, an Altar and the like, and need no giant monuments or anything.
Unless they are like me and want to built classic statues of the Roman gods just for the hell of it, most religions arnt large enough or have a need for them
 

Abhishekm

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Getting back to the 'In God We Trust' thing. It was started as a well meaning deist liberal sentiment against a atheist authoritarian opponent yes. Thats a positive in keeping the tradition as far as I am concerned.

On the other the morality of the government and general public has changed to the point where that message is no longer the same. And I honestly think people who understand the original message behind it would probably want it removed so it stops taking Gods name in vain.

On the other other hand I being the unrelated person and general proponent of kekery would either prefer it kept out of spite. Or as a compromise to the people who care about the message it embodies and now degrades petition to have it changed to "This is Your God" for a second round of meme warfare.
 
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Abhishekm

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Well to add to my last post on money.

I would suggest those things if physical currency for all the nature of its "worth" being assumed already wasnt being steadily lobbied to be replaced with a fully digital version already. So why not just take the fencesitter position and say why not just wait 20 years until the dollar is digital anyway?

Its kinda unlikely USCoin is gonna have anything like a filigree NFT attached to it let alone one with a real statement.
 

Captain X

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Does it mention a particular God?
It just says God.
How wonderfully intellectually dishonest. God is capitalized for a reason, which is that is the name of a deity - the Christian deity. Even other religions which claim to worship the same deity have different names for him.

Why get rid of it?
When, as S'task showed, the US has a VERY strong Christian base in i our seal.
And yet it was only added in the 1950s for what amounts to propaganda purposes.

It seems none of you understand that any if these changes would lead to a slippery slope of more first "In God we trust" then it is "Get rid of the people on them as they were slave owners" to having LGBTQ+ people on them.
I am not going to abandon what I think is right just because it happens to overlap with what the commies want or claim to believe.
 

Zachowon

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How wonderfully intellectually dishonest. God is capitalized for a reason, which is that is the name of a deity - the Christian deity. Even other religions which claim to worship the same deity have different names for him.


And yet it was only added in the 1950s for what amounts to propaganda purposes.


I am not going to abandon what I think is right just because it happens to overlap with what the commies want or claim to believe.
Do I have to point out how everything people like bacle have said about Confederate statues WENT exactly how we said it would?
 
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