United States Confederate Statues, symbols, and memorials debate thread

bintananth

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2021
Reaction score
2,378
Christians (particularly Catholics) tend to not think of other Christians with differing doctrinal beliefs and/or interpretations of scripture as Christians. It's why there's so many denominations out there.
We all worship the same God, just in different ways. I've said that to an Imam and a Rabbi.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Reaction score
24,250
We all worship the same God, just in different ways. I've said that to an Imam and a Rabbi.
The RCC is closer to a sovereign nation with embassies and consulates in nearly every town, it's own foreign and domestic policies, and it's own banks (full of all sorts on sketchily obtained loot and funds).

Thus, the Papacy's situation and edicts always need to be regard closer to gov propaganda and narrative building, than religious edicts.

No denomination or faith has a monopoly on the connection to the divine; the divine is more than any human concept or idea can truly encompass or comprehend.
 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Reaction score
6,448
Location
ch'Rihan
Christians (particularly Catholics) tend to not think of other Christians with differing doctrinal beliefs and/or interpretations of scripture as Christians. It's why there's so many denominations out there.
It might seem that way, but it's actually not.

Most denominational differences come from points of belief that are pretty deep in the weeds... or in regards to how Church government is run. However, aside from some fanatical types, there is actually a fairly broad consensus on who can use the name "Christian" and what beliefs that title entails that is broadly agreed upon by the Catholics, Orthodox, and majority of Protestant Churches.

Basically, if the person holds to the Apostolic and Nicean Creeds, they are broadly considered Christians. There's a few different translations of these creeds from the Latin (their original language), so I'm just picking an arbitrary ones:

Apostolic Creed said:
I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven,
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of the saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.
Nicean Creed said:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God. begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father; through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary and became truly human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
They do cover some of the same things, but largely the theology of these Creeds boils down to:
  • God created the World.
  • Virgin Conception and Birth of Jesus Christ.
  • Christ was incarnated as a human male and was present in the flesh on the Earth.
  • Christ suffered and died by crucifixion under the Romans by Pilate.
  • Christ was buried and rose again on the third day before ascending into heaven.
  • Christ will return to sit in judgement of the living and the dead and reign eternally.
  • Trinitarian understanding of God.
  • Belief in the rites of Baptism and the forgiveness of Sin.
I'm sure I'm leaving out some details, but these core beliefs are what is shared by those whom call themselves Christians and have served as a strong definition of what the core beliefs of Christians are for nigh on two thousand of years.

Does this mean there are groups whom aren't considered "Christians" by Christians whom outsiders might see as being "Christians"? Yes. Mormons most immediately come to mind, but there are others, for instance Seventh Day Adventists are not Christians according to this understanding (they deny the Trinity), and arguably main of what are known as the "Mainstream Christian Churches" in the US that no longer truly believe in the actual historical incarnation of Christ and literal resurrections are not Christian either.
 

bintananth

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2021
Reaction score
2,378
We're going way off topic here ...

When it comes to removing Confederate Statues the ones of James Longstreet are the ones the African Americans I know who know about what he did after the Civil War don't want removed.
 

Pocky Balboa

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Reaction score
602
Seventh Day Adventists are not Christians according to this understanding (they deny the Trinity)
*goes to official SDA site*
*looks at 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-Day Adventists on the site*
*#2*
Official Beliefs of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church said:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons.
*while typing this, in the background parents currently listening to video of some dude arguing SDA church is on the wrong path because they're Trinitarians and that Bible and Ellen White argued for Arianism*

???
 

bintananth

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2021
Reaction score
2,378
*goes to official SDA site*
*looks at 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-Day Adventists on the site*
*#2*

*while typing this, in the background parents currently listening to video of some dude arguing SDA church is on the wrong path because they're Trinitarians and that Bible and Ellen White argued for Arianism*

???
Sadly this joke is more real than one might expect:

 

S'task

Renegade Philosopher
Administrator
Staff Member
Founder
Joined
Aug 9, 2019
Reaction score
6,448
Location
ch'Rihan
*goes to official SDA site*
*looks at 28 Fundamental Beliefs of Seventh-Day Adventists on the site*
*#2*

*while typing this, in the background parents currently listening to video of some dude arguing SDA church is on the wrong path because they're Trinitarians and that Bible and Ellen White argued for Arianism*

???
Sorry, got the Seventh Day Adventists and the Jehovah's Witnesses confused for some reason. That was who I was thinking of.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Reaction score
16,785
Christians (particularly Catholics) tend to not think of other Christians with differing doctrinal beliefs and/or interpretations of scripture as Christians. It's why there's so many denominations out there.
Not so. While there are denominations whose formal hierarchy are not considered Christian anymore because they've thrown out the Bible and embraced leftism (The Episcopal church openly has practicing homosexual cardinals), the members of basically every significant church holds members of other churches as Christians too.

The Catholics as a partial exception are likely to say that Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, etc, are 'tragically led partially astray' or something like that, but it's more an attitude of 'we wish they'd end this tragic schism' than a 'they're filthy heathens.'

Every other denomination I've visited or been part of has, at most, thought 'you have some funny customs,' and sometimes had 'our preferred customs are different enough that we need to be separate church communities,' but still holding each other as Christians.

There are some tiny radical fringe groups that think that everyone else is so wrong they're going to hell, and of course the Mormons whose belief system is not remotely Christian, but want to claim kinship in spite of that. Jehovah's Witness are also a splinter, but to my knowledge they don't actually consider themselves Christians anyways.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Joined
Aug 12, 2019
Reaction score
24,250
Not so. While there are denominations whose formal hierarchy are not considered Christian anymore because they've thrown out the Bible and embraced leftism (The Episcopal church openly has practicing homosexual cardinals), the members of basically every significant church holds members of other churches as Christians too.

The Catholics as a partial exception are likely to say that Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists, etc, are 'tragically led partially astray' or something like that, but it's more an attitude of 'we wish they'd end this tragic schism' than a 'they're filthy heathens.'

Every other denomination I've visited or been part of has, at most, thought 'you have some funny customs,' and sometimes had 'our preferred customs are different enough that we need to be separate church communities,' but still holding each other as Christians.

There are some tiny radical fringe groups that think that everyone else is so wrong they're going to hell, and of course the Mormons whose belief system is not remotely Christian, but want to claim kinship in spite of that. Jehovah's Witness are also a splinter, but to my knowledge they don't actually consider themselves Christians anyways.
Mormon's are a Abrahamaic religion, who are similar to Muslim's in how they derive their faith from some shared sources and stories. However they have their own 'prophet' like Muslims, and the whole polygamy thing

It's just they are also an uniquely American faith, and were molded by their own Exodus story of leaving the Midwest to live in...Utah, after violent persecution/oppression, separate from most other settlement attempts, and try to create a religious nation. That land is both amazing, and terrifying, for people to traverse on foot, and the political/cultural history of that nation is part of America social history, as much as it is an Abrahamaic religion.

Edit: Also, the Great Salt Lake is a decent analog for the Dead Sea, as well.
 

bintananth

Well-known member
Joined
May 6, 2021
Reaction score
2,378
and the whole polygamy thing
That's pretty much what got them persecuted. Most present day Mormons aren't ok with that.

There are exceptions like the FLDS. The less said about how inappropriate they are, the better. I'm not sure if I can repeat any of the distasteful things a pair of Mormon guys doing their required missionary work I met at a park and pleasantly discussed the Bible with one afternoon had to say about those twatwaffles without violating Rule 3.
 
Top Bottom