Banning all things and people Russian

[ATP]

Latvians came up with punishment for supporting Russia

The Latvian authorities have decided that everyone who expresses support for the Russian special operation in Ukraine will be deprived of citizenship. Such a bill was adopted in the second reading by the Saeima (local parliament) on 21 April. The deputies voted for amendments to the law on...

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Remember, no Russian.

No kgbstan invasion.
Becouse putin use long dead russian nation as pretext to invade other countries.You have russian speaking minority? wait for kgbstan tanks.
Better get rid of themm when kgbstan tanks are on Uraine,becouse later it would be,well...too late.

 

[Arch Dornan]

No kgbstan invasion.
Becouse putin use long dead russian nation as pretext to invade other countries.You have russian speaking minority? wait for kgbstan tanks.
Better get rid of themm when kgbstan tanks are on Uraine,becouse later it would be,well...too late.

It can. It really does suck for the minority but if the host is feeling like it they'll do it at the time when sentiment allows them to do it.

 

[ATP]

It can. It really does suck for the minority but if the host is feeling like it they'll do it at the time when sentiment allows them to do it.

It do not matter what host think.Important thing is,what kgbstan think.
And they think,that they could use russian-speaking minority as pretext to invade.
And Latvia would get rid only of those who support Putin,not all russian speaking citizens.

 

[Arch Dornan]

It do not matter what host think.Important thing is,what kgbstan think.
And they think,that they could use russian-speaking minority as pretext to invade.
And Latvia would get rid only of those who support Putin,not all russian speaking citizens.

With the fuck Russia energy going on I won't be surprised if it went all the way.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The best way to keep somebody like Putin in line is to make him dependant on our trade, and not publicly pushing into a corner.

This doesn't work. It's never worked. Authoritarians are good at making sacrifices (of other people of course) to take the hit and keep going, while more democratic governments are beholden to people who refuse to make those sacrifices and thus become dependent. Trade dependency only works on governments that care primarily about their own people.

The US tried the "Dependent on trade" trick on China. Now Disney, the NBA, Nike, and many more bend the knee to China's demands for censorship. Nobody in China bends the knee to the US, "Dependence on trade" didn't make China quit threatening Taiwan, stop them using Uigher slaves, or protect democracy in Hong Kong. Heck it hasn't even slowed down China's patent theft, the "Trade" helped and continues to help China close the technology gap.

Sanctions seem to be doing jack to get Russia out of Ukraine but in the reverse, Europe sure does look keen to buy them some Russian oil with Rubles.

 

[LordsFire]

It is not a 'cultural genocide' to send Russian speakers, who have family ties to Russia already, back to Russia. Kids born in said nations can stay, I guess, but you best bet the security services will watch them like hawks because of Putin's antics and if they step out of line goodbye citizenship.

There's a number of problems here.

First, taking a dictator's excuse away only helps for as long as it takes him to come up with a new excuse. Usually, that'll be at most the length of one staff meeting. So your idea of kicking out Russian-descended people is a bad idea, because it won't work.

Second, you're ignoring both the rights and the agency of those people. You're certainly going to destroy any loyalty they may have had to your nation, and setting them against you.

Third, you're giving the dictator a new excuse to invade. As you are demonstrably trampling on human rights merely because of a person's ancestry, he can simply use that as a cassus belli to invade and give back the citizens you exiled the land/homes/property you took from them.

Fourth, there's a much simpler, better way to deal with this. Go door-to-door with your expatriot-descended citizens, and ask them a simple question. 'Do you think that your ancestry means that Russia should control this territory?' If they answer no, then you've got your PR counter to the dictator's excuse. If they say 'yes,' then you've identified a traitor; if there are enough people giving this answer, then you start looking into legal proceedings targeted specifically at those who've made it clear they're loyal to a foreign nation, to expel them and strip them of their citizenship, because by their own admission they are loyal first to a hostile power.


The idea that you've proposed here shows how you still, at a fundamental level, think like a leftist. You want to do things based on group identities, you're ignoring personal responsibility or lack thereof, and you want broad, sweeping policies that will cause harm without even solving the problem they're supposed to deal with.

And more than else, this shows how you still think like a leftist, because if you actually thought the issue through for five minutes before deciding what your stance was, you'd have come up with a better solution, that wasn't based on overly-simplistic thinking.

 

[Bacle]

There's a number of problems here.

First, taking a dictator's excuse away only helps for as long as it takes him to come up with a new excuse. Usually, that'll be at most the length of one staff meeting. So your idea of kicking out Russian-descended people is a bad idea, because it won't work.

Second, you're ignoring both the rights and the agency of those people. You're certainly going to destroy any loyalty they may have had to your nation, and setting them against you.

Third, you're giving the dictator a new excuse to invade. As you are demonstrably trampling on human rights merely because of a person's ancestry, he can simply use that as a cassus belli to invade and give back the citizens you exiled the land/homes/property you took from them.

Fourth, there's a much simpler, better way to deal with this. Go door-to-door with your expatriot-descended citizens, and ask them a simple question. 'Do you think that your ancestry means that Russia should control this territory?' If they answer no, then you've got your PR counter to the dictator's excuse. If they say 'yes,' then you've identified a traitor; if there are enough people giving this answer, then you start looking into legal proceedings targeted specifically at those who've made it clear they're loyal to a foreign nation, to expel them and strip them of their citizenship, because by their own admission they are loyal first to a hostile power.


The idea that you've proposed here shows how you still, at a fundamental level, think like a leftist. You want to do things based on group identities, you're ignoring personal responsibility or lack thereof, and you want broad, sweeping policies that will cause harm without even solving the problem they're supposed to deal with.

And more than else, this shows how you still think like a leftist, because if you actually thought the issue through for five minutes before deciding what your stance was, you'd have come up with a better solution, that wasn't based on overly-simplistic thinking.

1) Perhaps, but it also is a known excuse and after what has happened in Ukraine, one we can say Russia has acted on. Russia 'allies' are far fewer this time, and fewer will be interested in humoring Russia's excuse in the future.

2) Unless they are among those who fled Russia to escape Putin after the Wall fell, , it's safe to say ethnic Russians/Russia speakers likely have little to no loyalty to the nations they find themselves in. Those who were imported by the USSR to those nations should be sent back to Russia, those who fled Russia after the Wall fell can likely be double-checked and left alone.

3) Fail to see how that is meaningfully different from the rhetoric Putin and Russia already engage in regarding the Baltics and Poland. Russia/Putin considers the Baltics 'fake' nations like he does Ukraine to be, so the very existence of the Baltic nations is 'oppressive' to those 'Russian speaking minorities' in the existing Russian mindset, particularly after the Baltics joined NATO. Also, ties back to #1.

4) And even this much would likely rile Putin, while it's very possible people would simply lie when asked. If they can to a nation due to fleeing Russia, they are less to fear, but if they were a USSR import, they are far more likely to be loyal to Russia than to the nation they reside in now.

5) Registered Independent, not a conservative; not sure how many times I need to repeat that. I am putting forth ideas in how to deal with potential problems if/when Russia tries to strike beyond Ukraine using the excuse of 'minority ethnic Russians/Russian speakers being oppressed. If you deport the people Putin wants to use as an excuse, while the Russians are still bogged down in Ukraine, it makes it harder for Putin to move on the Baltics using that excuse later. If the only Russian speakers in those nations are ones who fled Russia/Putin, and the ones the USSR imported are deported, it helps nullify the excuse Putin may want to use.

This idea isn't meant to be 'nice' or fit 'conservative values', it's meant to fucking deal with shit Russia has been shown to do, instead of finding ways to lose gracefully and let our enemies dictate the battlefield, which is all the 'Right' seems to be able to accomplish.

 

[Simonbob]

This idea isn't meant to be 'nice' or fit 'conservative values', it's meant to fucking deal with shit Russia has been shown to do,

If you want to deal with Russia, to make sure they can't do this, ever? Nuke them till Russia glows in the dark. Otherwise, humans gonna human.


The rest of us are going to keep thinking. Even me, now I've been dragged in.



(I mean, why is this a bigger deal than all the other wars our there, anyway? Fucking Media.)

 

[Terthna]

1) Perhaps, but it also is a known excuse and after what has happened in Ukraine, one we can say Russia has acted on. Russia 'allies' are far fewer this time, and fewer will be interested in humoring Russia's excuse in the future.

2) Unless they are among those who fled Russia to escape Putin after the Wall fell, , it's safe to say ethnic Russians/Russia speakers likely have little to no loyalty to the nations they find themselves in. Those who were imported by the USSR to those nations should be sent back to Russia, those who fled Russia after the Wall fell can likely be double-checked and left alone.

3) Fail to see how that is meaningfully different from the rhetoric Putin and Russia already engage in regarding the Baltics and Poland. Russia/Putin considers the Baltics 'fake' nations like he does Ukraine to be, so the very existence of the Baltic nations is 'oppressive' to those 'Russian speaking minorities' in the existing Russian mindset, particularly after the Baltics joined NATO. Also, ties back to #1.

4) And even this much would likely rile Putin, while it's very possible people would simply lie when asked. If they can to a nation due to fleeing Russia, they are less to fear, but if they were a USSR import, they are far more likely to be loyal to Russia than to the nation they reside in now.

5) Registered Independent, not a conservative; not sure how many times I need to repeat that. I am putting forth ideas in how to deal with potential problems if/when Russia tries to strike beyond Ukraine using the excuse of 'minority ethnic Russians/Russian speakers being oppressed. If you deport the people Putin wants to use as an excuse, while the Russians are still bogged down in Ukraine, it makes it harder for Putin to move on the Baltics using that excuse later. If the only Russian speakers in those nations are ones who fled Russia/Putin, and the ones the USSR imported are deported, it helps nullify the excuse Putin may want to use.

This idea isn't meant to be 'nice' or fit 'conservative values', it's meant to fucking deal with shit Russia has been shown to do, instead of finding ways to lose gracefully and let our enemies dictate the battlefield, which is all the 'Right' seems to be able to accomplish.

The point LordsFire was trying to convey to you, which has clearly flown over your head, is that your "idea" doesn't deal with Russia at all; it's pure spite dressed up as a final solution to a conflict that almost nobody (barring the people actually getting blown up) wants to stop.

 

[Bacle]

The point LordsFire was trying to convey to you, which has clearly flown over your head, is that your "idea" doesn't deal with Russia at all; it's pure spite dressed up as a final solution to a conflict that almost nobody (barring the people actually getting blown up) involved wants to stop.

It's not a final solution for dealing with Russia, and I never claimed it was.

It might be a bit of spite and fighting 'dirty', but that is only because that level of emotion and geopolitical motivations seem to be the level Russia operates on and understands, unfortunately. Trying to be the bigger man doesn't work so well with Russia, as we've plainly seen.

The reality is there are no 'nice' methods to handle this situation. Options range from "distasteful to modern sensibilities but can be bloodlessly done if the people in charge are not bloodthirststers" to "No Russian, but this time literally and on NATO soil instead of Russian soil" when it comes to the people the USSR/Russia imported to those nations during the Cold War.

Depending on what Russia intends to do with regards to the rhetoric around taking the Baltics/punching a corridor to Kaliningrad, these people could literally be sabatuers-in-place at a key juncture. Frankly if a Russian didn't flee Russia to get away from Putin, and was moved into a nation by the USSR's cultural genocide scheme, they probably aren't going to fight against Russia if they decide to make a move on the host nations.

Sanctions are hurting, Russia is bleeding manpower it cannot replace without a fullscale mobilization and wartime declaration, it's demographics mean less manpower going forward even the best scenario for them, and the "Russian minority" excuse isn't flying with China and most other nations anymore. Russia however is still seeming to wish to take the Baltics and punch a corridor to both Kaliningrad and Transnistria.

This fight is far from over, and we need to start expecting it to move beyond Ukraine and Russia, based on the rhetoric that's been flying, and the munitions that have been landing inside Russia's borders. I didn't want to think this might be the start of WW3, but it very much seems like it will be, unless Russia pulls back sometime soon. With that in mind, it feels preemptively starting to figure out how to handle issues with Russian minorities in NATO territory that were placed there when it was formerly part of the USSR.

Russian's that fled Russia to escape Putin's shit are probably safe and frankly rather valuable, and shouldn't be expelled, I want to be clear. However one's moved to those nations by the USSR and who remained there while loyal to Russia need to be viewed as long term illegal immigrants.

 

[Agent23]

The point LordsFire was trying to convey to you, which has clearly flown over your head, is that your "idea" doesn't deal with Russia at all; it's pure spite dressed up as a final solution to a conflict that almost nobody (barring the people actually getting blown up) wants to stop.

If you want to deal with Russia, to make sure they can't do this, ever? Nuke them till Russia glows in the dark. Otherwise, humans gonna human.


The rest of us are going to keep thinking. Even me, now I've been dragged in.



(I mean, why is this a bigger deal than all the other wars our there, anyway? Fucking Media.)

West nukes Russia, Dead Hand gets triggered, West gets nuked right back and the reetards glow in the dark for real, until the cancer and radiation sickness kick in and they die.

 

[Simonbob]

Russian's that fled Russia to escape Putin's shit are probably safe and frankly rather valuable, and shouldn't be expelled, I want to be clear. However one's moved to those nations by the USSR and who remained there while loyal to Russia need to be viewed as long term illegal immigrants.

I can see what you're saying. I think it's not that simple.

As best I can tell, most of them have been there for generations, and haven't caused much issue. Russia also didn't do much, for most of those years. There's quite a few Baltic States who have those ethnic Russians with no real conflict.



Ukraine is a bit different. There was a low level civil war between the ethnic Russians and ethnic Ukrainians for years, before Putin stuck his troops in.



Looking at the timing and background, it's just not that simple.

 

[Cherico]

West nukes Russia, Dead Hand gets triggered, West gets nuked right back and the reetards glow in the dark for real, until the cancer and radiation sickness kick in and they die.

Russia realistically cant afford to maintain the kind of nuclear weapons stocks they had during the cold war. Quite a few of them are probally duds, then you have the fact that america has been working on anti missle tech for 40 years now, and with this war that shit is going to be activated both here and in europe.

Russia not only has enemies in Nato, they also have Japan, boarder issues with China, and other enemies in the middle east. And they claim to have 6,800 nuclear weapons. So you have duds, you have the stuff that will be intercepted.

So if Russia sends out the nukes their going to try to hit every one around them, which means those nukes are spread around and since they know america has some defenses in place their going to have to use muliple missles for various cities.

Smart money is that the damage is spread around and is sever but Russia is destroyed in the exchange. Its not the end of civilization but a fuck load of innocent people die and Russia becomes Carthrage 2 electric boogaloo.

 

[hyperspacewizard]

Okay does anyone here think the camps the Japanese Americans where place in during ww2 was a massive miscarriage of Justice? Because if you've every thought that was immoral and unjust you cant be for removing a group for their ethnicity that's such a overreaction that it would create the hate your trying to remove.

Also Putin would just come up with another excuse except now he would have people with legit grievances backing him. Heck the deportation itself could be an excuse for military action. Where would the business, land and homes those peoples had in their original country go? They would be taken the outrage that would cause would be massive. You cant punish a whole group for what a crazy leader uses as a excuse.

 

[Agent23]

Russia realistically cant afford to maintain the kind of nuclear weapons stocks they had during the cold war. Quite a few of them are probally duds, then you have the fact that america has been working on anti missle tech for 40 years now, and with this war that shit is going to be activated both here and in europe.

Russia not only has enemies in Nato, they also have Japan, boarder issues with China, and other enemies in the middle east. And they claim to have 6,800 nuclear weapons. So you have duds, you have the stuff that will be intercepted.

So if Russia sends out the nukes their going to try to hit every one around them, which means those nukes are spread around and since they know america has some defenses in place their going to have to use muliple missles for various cities.

Smart money is that the damage is spread around and is sever but Russia is destroyed in the exchange. Its not the end of civilization but a fuck load of innocent people die and Russia becomes Carthrage 2 electric boogaloo.

Uh, huh, yeah, sure.
Wait for the Sarmat with its 750 kilotons spread over 10-15 warheads or a bunch of avangard glide vehicles to come in from the south and enjoy the mushroom clouds as you start glowing in the night.

Russia has significantly reduced the number of warheads deployed on its ballistic missiles to meet the New START limit of no more than 1,550 deployed strategic warheads. Russia achieved the required reduction by the February 5, 2018 deadline, when it declared 1,444 strategic warheads attributed to 527 launchers (Russian Federation Foreign Affairs Ministry 2018). The most recent data, declared on September 1, 2020, listed Russia with 1,447 deployed warheads attributed to 510 strategic launchers (US State Department, Bureau of Arms Control, Verification and Compliance 2020a). These numbers differ from the estimates presented in this Nuclear Notebook because the New START counting rules artificially attribute one warhead to each deployed bomber, even though Russian bombers do not carry nuclear weapons under normal circumstances, and because this Nuclear Notebook counts weapons stored at bomber bases that can quickly be loaded onto the aircraft.


Russia (like the United States) could potentially upload several hundreds of extra warheads onto their launchers, but is prevented from doing so by the New START treaty limit, which has been extended for an additional five years to 2026. The treaty provides for important transparency of Russian (and U.S.) strategic nuclear forces: As of December 2020, the United States and Russia have completed a combined 328 on-site inspections and exchanged 21,293 notifications (US State Department, Bureau of Arms Control, Verification and Compliance 2020b). Due to the ongoing Covid-19 pandemic, there have been no on-site Type One or Type Two inspections since April 1st, 2020.

Let us be generous that half are taken out of the game way either failure or ABMs.

That still leaves hundreds of cities turned to glass and tens of millions dead.

The morons that would advocate for a nuclear war because they think that Russia will not retaliate are mentally retarded.

 

[bintananth]

Okay does anyone here think the camps the Japanese Americans where place in during ww2 was a massive miscarriage of Justice?

*raises hand*

People of German and Italian ancestry were also placed in camps. With them, internment was on a case-by-case basis and selective.

Japanese internment was "too close to the West Coast and off to a camp you go". That 2/3 of them were US citizens just makes it worse.

Not one of our bright spots.

 

[Abhorsen]

Let us be generous that half are taken out of the game way either failure or ABMs.

That still leaves hundreds of cities turned to glass and tens of millions dead.

The morons that would advocate for a nuclear war because they think that Russia will not retaliate are mentally retarded.

Even if the US doesn't get nuked in retaliation, it hasn't won anything worth winning. Yay, we killed millions of innocents! Now they're free of Putin's tyranny!

This is plainly horrific. If you want this, you are a bad person, plain and simple.

 

[Agent23]

*raises hand*

People of German and Italian ancestry were also placed in camps. With them, internment was on a case-by-case basis and selective.

Japanese internment was "too close to the West Coast and off to a camp you go". That 2/3 of them were US citizens just makes it worse.

Not one of our bright spots.

IIRC in the USA there were actual internment camps for Germans and a massive anti-german Campaign during WWI btw.

Even if the US doesn't get nuked in retaliation, it hasn't won anything worth winning. Yay, we killed millions of innocents! Now they're free of Putin's tyranny!

This is plainly horrific. If you want this, you are a bad person, plain and simple.

There was actually a pretty funny short story by Dimitrii Gluhovski(Of Metro 203X fame) about the aftermath of nuclear war on some far-of Siberian village.

The villagers are initially surprised that there is no more TV and that the mail hasn't arrived for some weeks but shrug it off and continue with their usual existence.
Then one day it turns out that a war started over Taiwan, that triggered a Russian response because of US cruise missiles headed off to Beijing, with Russia's strategic command assuming the launch was going for them.

First the people were terrified but then they look around and say to themselves "How are we going to live? Same way we have lived always."
With some even thinking that not having to pay the leasing fees on their automobiles is a great thing.

 

[Arch Dornan]

IIRC in the USA there were actual internment camps for Germans and a massive anti-german Campaign during WWI btw.

Yup. It was a time for fuck Germany the German immigrants had to change their surnames to be more American and there was a picture of someone tarred and feathered for allegedly not supporting war bonds.

 

[Agent23]

Yup. It was a time for fuck Germany the German immigrants had to change their surnames to be more American and there was a picture of someone tarred and feathered for allegedly not supporting war bonds.

Ugh.
As to the name changes, I thought that that was just part of the whole Naturalization/Melting pot policy?
Kissinger for example changed his name from Hans to Henry IIRC.

Also, prior to the world wars Germans had a pretty large, pretty socially autonomous society in America, complete with their own schools that taught pupils in German IIRC.