Banning all things and people Russian

[bintananth]

IIRC in the USA there were actual internment camps for Germans and a massive anti-german Campaign during WWI btw.

Massive anti-German campaign, yes. Widespread internment, no.

During WWI Germans were required to register and subject to "papers please". Only the suspicious ones and troublemakers got locked up (less than 1% of the total).

 

[Agent23]

Massive anti-German campaign, yes. Widespread internment, no.

During WWI Germans were required to register and subject to "papers please". Only the suspicious ones and troublemakers got locked up (less than 1% of the total).

Well, the German population was quite large as well.
I'd wager much bigger and more geographically spread than say, the Japanese, it would have been impossible to intern them for that alone, and not only that, but also because they would be harder to distinguish, as opposed to the Japanese.
Not that the internment of Japanese was in any way non-discriminatory or non-retarded, mind you, but it was hardly the first time such shit was pulled during war.

Pretty sure Ukrainian will probably have to be Slav-preferred pronoun for dealing with the west.

EDIT: Also, fun fact.Admiral Chester Nimitz, was actually von Nimitz, and he was a 3rd or 2nd generation German, with some of his aunts IIRC literally not understanding English at all.
His grandfather or Great Grandfather was an impoverished nobleman and a merchant marine officer for one of the German countries that later made up Germany IIRC, he fell in love with a commoner and they eloped to the USA.
Fun tidbit for fellow history buffs.

 

[LordsFire]

It might be a bit of spite and fighting 'dirty', but that is only because that level of emotion and geopolitical motivations seem to be the level Russia operates on and understands, unfortunately. Trying to be the bigger man doesn't work so well with Russia, as we've plainly seen.

The problem with your idea that I was explaining isn't that it's 'spiteful' or 'dirty.'

The problem with it is that it would accomplish nothing, and cause you a whole host of problems in exchange for that.

Dirty tactics that are effective would be things like a successful assassination attempt against Putin, sabotaging Russian military infrastructure, demolishing rail lines and roads in Russia that lead to your border, when there isn't an active war on (yet). That might actually accomplish something.

Alienating and exiling a significant fraction of your population because a foreign dictator their share ancestry with is using them as an excuse does not actually help. That dictator can come up with a replacement excuse in seconds if those people suddenly magically were no longer able to be used as a political lever.

And I know you don't claim to be a conservative. My point about leftist thinking, is that you're failing to understand the situation and apparently incapable of understanding why your proposed plan would make things worse and not accomplish anything productive at all, because you still think like a leftist.

 

[Bacle]

The problem with your idea that I was explaining isn't that it's 'spiteful' or 'dirty.'

The problem with it is that it would accomplish nothing, and cause you a whole host of problems in exchange for that.

Dirty tactics that are effective would be things like a successful assassination attempt against Putin, sabotaging Russian military infrastructure, demolishing rail lines and roads in Russia that lead to your border, when there isn't an active war on (yet). That might actually accomplish something.

Alienating and exiling a significant fraction of your population because a foreign dictator their share ancestry with is using them as an excuse does not actually help. That dictator can come up with a replacement excuse in seconds if those people suddenly magically were no longer able to be used as a political lever.

And I know you don't claim to be a conservative. My point about leftist thinking, is that you're failing to understand the situation and apparently incapable of understanding why your proposed plan would make things worse and not accomplish anything productive at all, because you still think like a leftist.

Actually it would accomplish something, if you kept people who fled from Russia while deporting those the USSR imported to those nations.

The nations would keep Russian's that oppose Putin, who are rather valuable, and remove potential fifth column in those Russians who do support Putin.

This removes a lot of potential issues, without preemptively destroying infrastructure or leaving Putin potential agents in NATO areas.

Now if someone successfully offed Putin, that'd be fine too, but that is not something we can bank on. Rebuilding the Iron Curtain, except this time from our side towards Russia and with Eastern Europe on our side, is not an irrational option at this juncture.

 

[LordsFire]

Actually it would accomplish something, if you kept people who fled from Russia while deporting those the USSR imported to those nations.

The nations would keep Russian's that oppose Putin, who are rather valuable, and remove potential fifth column in those Russians who do support Putin.

This removes a lot of potential issues, without preemptively destroying infrastructure or leaving Putin potential agents in NATO areas.

Now if someone successfully offed Putin, that'd be fine too, but that is not something we can bank on. Rebuilding the Iron Curtain, except this time from our side towards Russia and with Eastern Europe on our side, is not an irrational option at this juncture.

You just assert these things, that it is a bygone conclusion that all of these Russian-descended people are foreign agents just waiting to happen.

You ignore the costs and difficulties involved in removing them, you ignore the political and cultural damage you do to yourself, you ignore all these things.


This is why I say you're thinking like a leftist. You have an idea, and no understanding whatsoever what the consequences of your idea would and would not actually be, but you're going to push for it anyways.

 

[Bacle]

You just assert these things, that it is a bygone conclusion that all of these Russian-descended people are foreign agents just waiting to happen.

You ignore the costs and difficulties involved in removing them, you ignore the political and cultural damage you do to yourself, you ignore all these things.


This is why I say you're thinking like a leftist. You have an idea, and no understanding whatsoever what the consequences of your idea would and would not actually be, but you're going to push for it anyways.

And you keep ignoring what I say about keeping Russians who fled Russia, and only sending back those the USSR imported or who are still loyal to Putin, because you want to attempt to ride a moral high horse over me.

The costs of this are less than the costs of a fifth column if/when Putin makes good on his rhetoric about taking the Baltics.

You also keep ignoring how what the USSR did with those importations was a direct attempt to destroy the pre-USSR cultures of the Baltics, and one that is still ongoing due to how Putin and Russia view the Baltics.

 

[LordsFire]

And you keep ignoring what I say about keeping Russians who fled Russia, and only sending back those the USSR imported or who are still loyal to Putin, because you want to attempt to ride a moral high horse over me.

The costs of this are less than the costs of a fifth column if/when Putin makes good on his rhetoric about taking the Baltics.

You also keep ignoring how what the USSR did with those importations was a direct attempt to destroy the pre-USSR cultures of the Baltics, and one that is still ongoing due to how Putin and Russia view the Baltics.

No, I'm not. I'm simply not assuming that because someone was relocated under the USSR, or their parents were, or their grandparents, or their great grandparents, that they're a member of a fifth column waiting to happen.

You are.

 

[Bacle]

No, I'm not. I'm simply not assuming that because someone was relocated under the USSR, or their parents were, or their grandparents, or their great grandparents, that they're a member of a fifth column waiting to happen.

You are.

Did I say to remove the kids, or grandkids automatically; no.

I said remove the people who had been imported by the USSR, or who are loyal to Putin.

You keep ignoring what I say to keep trying to ride your moral high horse over me like I'm a grandma in Trudeau's Canada.

 

[Simonbob]

like I'm a grandma in Trudeau's Canada.

...... Kinky.

 

[King Arts]

Did I say to remove the kids, or grandkids automatically; no.

I said remove the people who had been imported by the USSR, or who are loyal to Putin.

You keep ignoring what I say to keep trying to ride your moral high horse over me like I'm a grandma in Trudeau's Canada.

Earlier you said that it's diffrent than ethnic cleansing Americans in America to help Native Americans because those people were moved in 2 centuries ago. You want to know when the Soviet Union started it's shit before 1920. What year is it now, 2022. More than one century. More than one generation of Russian people have lived on those lands. Now I wouldn't necesarily be opposed to ethnic cleansing after all I do think the Serbs were the good guys. But you should at least be honest and not slimy and twist away from what you are advocating because you don't want to look like a fascist.

 

[Bacle]

Earlier you said that it's diffrent than ethnic cleansing Americans in America to help Native Americans because those people were moved in 2 centuries ago. You want to know when the Soviet Union started it's shit before 1920. What year is it now, 2022. More than one century. More than one generation of Russian people have lived on those lands. Now I wouldn't necesarily be opposed to ethnic cleansing after all I do think the Serbs were the good guys. But you should at least be honest and not slimy and twist away from what you are advocating because you don't want to look like a fascist.

No, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was in the US war with Mexico; it had nothing to do with Native American issues and everything to do with control over Texas/the Rio Grande.

Also, I said that people who were imported to those areas and those still loyal to Putin should be send back to Russia; they were still doing the import scheme right up to the end. If someone of Russian ethnicity fled Russia after the Wall fell, they probably aren't going to want to help Putin during an invasion; someone who was placed in those nations in the 70's or 80's could still be loyal to the USSR/Russia/Putin. If Russian speaker support Putin, they don't need to be in NATO nations; the only Russian's we need around are the ones who fled Russia/Putin, or who's parent's did.

Also, lets not pretend Russia's cultural genocide scheme and the people who were part of it deserve protection, simply because they were successful at it for so long. It's not ethnic cleansing to send people back to the land they originated from, or where they are loyal too.

 

[King Arts]

No, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was in the US war with Mexico; it had nothing to do with Native American issues and everything to do with control over Texas/the Rio Grande.

Also, I said that people who were imported to those areas and those still loyal to Putin should be send back to Russia; they were still doing the import scheme right up to the end. If someone of Russian ethnicity fled Russia after the Wall fell, they probably aren't going to want to help Putin during an invasion; someone who was placed in those nations in the 70's or 80's could still be loyal to the USSR/Russia/Putin. If Russian speaker support Putin, they don't need to be in NATO nations; the only Russian's we need around are the ones who fled Russia/Putin, or who's parent's did.

Also, lets not pretend Russia's cultural genocide scheme and the people who were part of it deserve protection, simply because they were successful at it for so long. It's not ethnic cleansing to send people back to the land they originated from, or where they are loyal too.

Lol yes it is. That is what the main difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide is. Ethnic cleansing is removing a population from a region. The reason why does not matter.

 

[Captain X]

Comparisons to what was done to Native Americans are disingenuous at best. The thing about Natives is that they are Native to these lands, and were moved so that others could have said lands. These Russians are not native to these other nations, and were moved there to undermine the populations and cultures of those lands. If anything, it's more comparable to say the Soviets have done to these other countries what was done to Natives as far as conquering them and disrupting their cultures and languages. The difference is that these countries have been given something of a second chance in reasserting themselves in their homelands, but there is still this threat represented by these people who are ethnically foreigners, which is underlined by what has happened in Ukraine. This isn't a bug, it's a feature. Is it a bit complicating that we are talking about people who are decedents of these foreigners? Yes, but only to an extent. If they wish to remain in these nations, among their people, then they should embrace these cultures and become a part of them. If they wish to remain Russian, then they should move back to Russia, and I can't find much fault in countries who wish to insist on this if these people both wish to remain Russian and remain where they are rather than moving voluntarily. This isn't Jackson moving tribes to steal their land, more like the other way around, if tribes had been able to remove white settlers who had moved onto their land.

 

[King Arts]

Comparisons to what was done to Native Americans are disingenuous at best. The thing about Natives is that they are Native to these lands, and were moved so that others could have said lands. These Russians are not native to these other nations, and were moved there to undermine the populations and cultures of those lands. If anything, it's more comparable to say the Soviets have done to these other countries what was done to Natives as far as conquering them and disrupting their cultures and languages. The difference is that these countries have been given something of a second chance in reasserting themselves in their homelands, but there is still this threat represented by these people who are ethnically foreigners, which is underlined by what has happened in Ukraine. This isn't a bug, it's a feature. Is it a bit complicating that we are talking about people who are decedents of these foreigners? Yes, but only to an extent. If they wish to remain in these nations, among their people, then they should embrace these cultures and become a part of them. If they wish to remain Russian, then they should move back to Russia, and I can't find much fault in countries who wish to insist on this if these people both wish to remain Russian and remain where they are rather than moving voluntarily. This isn't Jackson moving tribes to steal their land, more like the other way around, if tribes had been able to remove white settlers who had moved onto their land.

Umm that was what we said. That moving the Russians that live there now, would be like if in the future some groups were able to force out American's from everywhere except the 13 original colonies. Tell me do you support modern decolonization efforts to kick whitey out?

 

[Bacle]

Lol yes it is. That is what the main difference between ethnic cleansing and genocide is. Ethnic cleansing is removing a population from a region. The reason why does not matter.

And you still seem to think that what Russia did and kept doing up till the USSR fell, deliberately moving Russian's into these nations to destroy the local culture, somehow isn't an attempt at the same, just on a different timescale?

And as I said, people who fled Russia after the Wall fell, or ethnic Russian's who are not loyal/supportive of Putin, are not who need to be sent back to Russia.

Comparisons to what was done to Native Americans are disingenuous at best. The thing about Natives is that they are Native to these lands, and were moved so that others could have said lands. These Russians are not native to these other nations, and were moved there to undermine the populations and cultures of those lands. If anything, it's more comparable to say the Soviets have done to these other countries what was done to Natives as far as conquering them and disrupting their cultures and languages. The difference is that these countries have been given something of a second chance in reasserting themselves in their homelands, but there is still this threat represented by these people who are ethnically foreigners, which is underlined by what has happened in Ukraine. This isn't a bug, it's a feature. Is it a bit complicating that we are talking about people who are decedents of these foreigners? Yes, but only to an extent. If they wish to remain in these nations, among their people, then they should embrace these cultures and become a part of them. If they wish to remain Russian, then they should move back to Russia, and I can't find much fault in countries who wish to insist on this if these people both wish to remain Russian and remain where they are rather than moving voluntarily. This isn't Jackson moving tribes to steal their land, more like the other way around, if tribes had been able to remove white settlers who had moved onto their land.

Very well put.

It would be eastern Europe freeing themselves of the legacy the USSR tried to saddle them with.

 

[hyperspacewizard]

Trying to correct past wrongs and potential future problems with present evils is how you create problems not solve them. It’s turtles all the way down especially when it comes to this kind of thing. How do you separate the good Russians from the bad you can’t like in a white room what your saying sounds like it kind of makes sense but trying to actually do so in reality it would fail cause huge evils and problems

 

[Simonbob]

It's not ethnic cleansing to send people back to the land they originated from, or where they are loyal too.

So....

We should send all Islamics home to where they came from? And the Chinese?

Based Bacle! I approve!

 

[LordsFire]

Did I say to remove the kids, or grandkids automatically; no.

I said remove the people who had been imported by the USSR, or who are loyal to Putin.

You keep ignoring what I say to keep trying to ride your moral high horse over me like I'm a grandma in Trudeau's Canada.

Really?

Eh, it should be handled as a long overdue illegal immigrantion matter.

Deporting Russia's 'Russian speaking minority' scheme' groups/plants from the nations the USSR oppressed is something that seems to be a no-brainer for European nations along Russia's borders.

This language says 'Russian speaking minority,' not 'the specific people who were imported, but not their Russian-speaking descendants.'

You did later say 'Kids born in said nations can stay, I guess' but I had interpreted that to mean 'people who are currently children,' and assumed that if you meant to include 'adults descendants of people who were born in the country,' you wouldn't have tacked 'kids' on.

Partly because the nation hasn't been under Soviet control for 40 years, so if you mean adults who were born in the Ukraine, that means pretty much all of them.

...Looking it up, almost all the major Soviet relocations of Russians into Ukraine seem to have happened in like, the 1930's, to repopulate after the Holodomor killed off millions of Ukrainians. Which would mean that functionally all of the Russian-speaking Ukrainians are going to have been born in Ukraine.

At which point, you're kicking out a handful of recent immigrants, and a few near-centenarians. How exactly is this going to remove the 'Ethnic Russians must rejoin Russia!' excuse for invasion?

 

[Bacle]

Really?


This language says 'Russian speaking minority,' not 'the specific people who were imported, but not their Russian-speaking descendants.'

You did later say 'Kids born in said nations can stay, I guess' but I had interpreted that to mean 'people who are currently children,' and assumed that if you meant to include 'adults descendants of people who were born in the country,' you wouldn't have tacked 'kids' on.

Partly because the nation hasn't been under Soviet control for 40 years, so if you mean adults who were born in the Ukraine, that means pretty much all of them.

...Looking it up, almost all the major Soviet relocations of Russians into Ukraine seem to have happened in like, the 1930's, to repopulate after the Holodomor killed off millions of Ukrainians. Which would mean that functionally all of the Russian-speaking Ukrainians are going to have been born in Ukraine.

At which point, you're kicking out a handful of recent immigrants, and a few near-centenarians. How exactly is this going to remove the 'Ethnic Russians must rejoin Russia!' excuse for invasion?

I was talking about the Baltics, Poland, and perhaps the Balkans (though they have internal issues that are separate from what the USSR did), not Ukraine, even if the same happened there.

 

[LordsFire]

I was talking about the Baltics, Poland, and perhaps the Balkans (though they have internal issues that are separate from what the USSR did), not Ukraine, even if the same happened there.

And when did the USSR do their people-shuffling into those nations, hm?