As much as I like the idea...he wouldn't last long.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
More than likely in each area of Westeros. Dorne, The Reach, The North, The Vale... the list goes on. Perhaps close enough to each lord's hovel, but not in an easily invadable position.
The North? I could see that being their "honoring the pact of Ice and Fire." Bit. But where? I guess Moat Callin which would be a benefit to the North while also chipping away at their power a bit as in theory a Northern Targaryen House would be loyal to the crown and not Winterfel.
In practice though..
Roberts rebellion would be a bit different if it happened at all.
VictortheMonarch
Victor the Crusader
Yeah, but I assume that the North would not like to give it's most powerful tool away to the Targaryen's, even if they do let it rot 24/7. I would say perhaps Stony Shore? House Fisher has been extinct well before the Targaryen conquest. Either that or Sea Dragon Point?
No I agree with you, it would cause a massive shitstorm but say if it's done during the reign of Jehearys the first the King can just go "lolcope" and offer a royal marriage with a Stark girl to one of his kids and then set them up in moat callin under the "I got Dragons."
The thing is, I honestly see the Targ offshoots settled there ending up more loyal to the Starks than the Iron Throne...Pre Eddard the Starks had a way of attracting fanatical loyalty.
Either or yeah it would work and it would allow the North to gain yet another city and potential lucrative port...Maybe even get some Valyrian descended immigrants from Volantis with their rice as a sort of bribe to the Starks. "We give you something to feed you in Winter and help develop your wasteland and people it."
Would they recognize House Baratheon as an official cadet branch of House Targaryan? One with a sort of princely status? Or just shove a bunch of Targs there?
Depends. The first question is whether or not they get dragons, the second is what cadet branches.
The Vale, Iron Isles, and Step Stones are the places you really want loyal Targaryen houses (if they have Dragons).
With Dragons, the Eyrie becomes utterly impossible to lose and provides the perfect spot to keep the Riverlands loyal and act to block the North from getting any ideas. It also provides a second, more secure, connection to Braavos. And a secure path to bring the Northern armies down into the Crownlands.
The Iron Isles (probably ruled by a Targ-Stark descendant House) keep the Westerlands loyal and secure the west of the continent secure.
The Step Stones sharply curtail Dornes power and would effectively make the Narrow Sea into the private waters of the Iron Throne. Dragons there, along with a naval force, let you control effectively all relevant sea trade.
I would assume that they would, if this was the brainchild of say Jehearys or either Viserys one could assume they would get Dragons as those monarchs seemed smart enough to realize the value of strategically placing Dragon nests in certain locations.
Children of Jeaharys, say there's less infant mortalities and less accidents and so he's able to establish two or three. Maybe he sends a daughter to the Starks.
Those families continue, say Aegon the unworthy instead of legitimizing his bastards as targs legitimizes them as founders of their own houses.
The question would be up to whoever does anything with the idea and it would have to be done right and be well thought out.
I was thinking about that, especially bringing the Step Stones into Westerosi control would do a lot to curtail the power of the free cities and also in theory strengthen ties with Braavos, or bring both powers into competition.
Which would go a long way to strengthening the realm and stabilizing shit. Especially if the Targs manage to foster better relations with the Starks..having an aloof ally who genuinely doesn't give a damn about your internal politics that you can wield as a "Behave or get your guts strung out on one of those tree gods." type cudgel ontop of Dragons is always nice..plus the potential for growth in the North.
an alliance between Lannisport and these Sea wolves/Sea Dragons to serve as their trade fleet would also increase the wealth of said region and possibly open them up to being influenced by the Lannisters.
The question is could they maintain that chokehold after the Dragons die out? Assuming they die out at all...
The Dragons died out because the Targaryen's forgot that the basis for their power was Fire and Blood.
Rhaenyra failing to burn Old Town to ash as the opening move of the Dance is the stupidest thing the dynasty ever did. Right up there with Aegon 1 allying with the Faith over the First Men and Aerys deciding to burn a Lord Paramount and his Heir to death.
Oh, and moving the family to King's Landing.
Ultimately, the Targaryens tried to be Kings instead of being Emperors and tried to be Andals instead of remaining Valyrians. They failed to replace the established societal infrastructure, failed to co-opt it, and failed to establish competing infrastructure. Without any of that, once they lost their trump card (dragons) they were fucked.
Failure to break the Faith, failure to break the Maesters, failure to break the Lords Paramount; all were pure stupidity.
Rhaenyra failing to burn Old Town to ash as the opening move of the Dance is the stupidest thing the dynasty ever did. Right up there with Aegon 1 allying with the Faith over the First Men and Aerys deciding to burn a Lord Paramount and his Heir to death.
Oh, and moving the family to King's Landing.
Ultimately, the Targaryens tried to be Kings instead of being Emperors and tried to be Andals instead of remaining Valyrians. They failed to replace the established societal infrastructure, failed to co-opt it, and failed to establish competing infrastructure. Without any of that, once they lost their trump card (dragons) they were fucked.
Failure to break the Faith, failure to break the Maesters, failure to break the Lords Paramount; all were pure stupidity.
Hmm, I want to see a fic where Jon or Ser Davos points out that Jon Snow was crowned King in the North as Jon Snow and that as a bastard he is not part of House Stark when Daenerys says her line about the Starks swearing fealty.
So little things that people seem to miss, like how massively huge Westeros is. The distance from Kings Landing to Oldtown? About the same as from Paris to Ukraine; or DC to Kansas City.
Transit times, outside of magical HBO teleporting armies, should be measured in months. Especially for moving entire armies.
And news? Even if a Raven flies two hundred miles a day (quite generous in all honesty), you are looking at several days to a few weeks for a message to make the trip.
And moving armies? First you need to get the message to the various lords to raise the troops (days probably), then they need to actually round up and arm the troops in question along with whatever supplies they need (days to weeks, depending), then they need to march to wherever the gathering point is. For reference, ten miles a day is a good speed for infantry to cover when they are in any kind of numbers (several hundred to low thousands) and have something approaching decent roads; so this is more days to weeks (or even months) of marching to get everyone gathered. Then the whole army needs to move to wherever and do its thing.
And all of this ignores most of the logistics involved. If the army has to forage, you are cutting the movement rate in at least half. If you are bringing supplies then you need to first gather those supplies, and thousands of people go through metric tons of food. This is also food that you are moving pre-refrigeration or electricity. For reference, whole masses of live chickens would be brought along in mobile coops. Even if you assume (somewhat reasonably given the years long Winters) that Westeros has some method of making high calorie, highly dense, long shelf life foodstuffs you are still looking at literally tons of supplies that need to be brought along with all of their attached wagons.
Robb calling the banners and making it to the Riverlands? They don't even get the message until probably two weeks after Ned is killed, and it's probably another two weeks before all of the Lords could even begin moving their own permanent men-at-arms (much less rounding up and moving peasant levies). Then you are looking at probably at least two months before those forces are concentrated at the Moat, and probably another two months (or longer) before they are into the Riverlands. All told? You are realistically looking at six to twelve months before the Northern force is into the Riverlands and something approaching able to give battle.
Calvary forces can move substantially faster, but they are still slow compared to modern sensibilities.
Honestly? Dragons really are about the only way you can make a serious go at unifying all of Westeros. They do allow you to move army destroying power several hundred miles in a day, and they are enough of a threat on their own to keep most of the lords honest. So the Targaryens needed an army somewhere? They flew in on a dragon and ordered the local lords to pony up a relatively small force and then used their dragon for most of the actual smashing, using the local force to handle the cleanup/occupation/accepting of surrenders/etc.
Without dragons, it is basically the Lords paying lip service to the throne because its ability to force compliance is slim to outright non-existent.
Changing that situation means massive infrastructure works. You need semaphore towers to increase communications speed (a semaphore system can manage six hundred or more miles in a day), you need rivers developed to move goods and armies, you need a substantial and good road network, you need networks of pre-emplaced forts and supply depots. You also need professional military forces that can smash larger forces of peasant levies when massively outnumbered, and everything that goes with a proper, professional, military and logistics core.
Transit times, outside of magical HBO teleporting armies, should be measured in months. Especially for moving entire armies.
And news? Even if a Raven flies two hundred miles a day (quite generous in all honesty), you are looking at several days to a few weeks for a message to make the trip.
And moving armies? First you need to get the message to the various lords to raise the troops (days probably), then they need to actually round up and arm the troops in question along with whatever supplies they need (days to weeks, depending), then they need to march to wherever the gathering point is. For reference, ten miles a day is a good speed for infantry to cover when they are in any kind of numbers (several hundred to low thousands) and have something approaching decent roads; so this is more days to weeks (or even months) of marching to get everyone gathered. Then the whole army needs to move to wherever and do its thing.
And all of this ignores most of the logistics involved. If the army has to forage, you are cutting the movement rate in at least half. If you are bringing supplies then you need to first gather those supplies, and thousands of people go through metric tons of food. This is also food that you are moving pre-refrigeration or electricity. For reference, whole masses of live chickens would be brought along in mobile coops. Even if you assume (somewhat reasonably given the years long Winters) that Westeros has some method of making high calorie, highly dense, long shelf life foodstuffs you are still looking at literally tons of supplies that need to be brought along with all of their attached wagons.
Robb calling the banners and making it to the Riverlands? They don't even get the message until probably two weeks after Ned is killed, and it's probably another two weeks before all of the Lords could even begin moving their own permanent men-at-arms (much less rounding up and moving peasant levies). Then you are looking at probably at least two months before those forces are concentrated at the Moat, and probably another two months (or longer) before they are into the Riverlands. All told? You are realistically looking at six to twelve months before the Northern force is into the Riverlands and something approaching able to give battle.
Calvary forces can move substantially faster, but they are still slow compared to modern sensibilities.
Honestly? Dragons really are about the only way you can make a serious go at unifying all of Westeros. They do allow you to move army destroying power several hundred miles in a day, and they are enough of a threat on their own to keep most of the lords honest. So the Targaryens needed an army somewhere? They flew in on a dragon and ordered the local lords to pony up a relatively small force and then used their dragon for most of the actual smashing, using the local force to handle the cleanup/occupation/accepting of surrenders/etc.
Without dragons, it is basically the Lords paying lip service to the throne because its ability to force compliance is slim to outright non-existent.
Changing that situation means massive infrastructure works. You need semaphore towers to increase communications speed (a semaphore system can manage six hundred or more miles in a day), you need rivers developed to move goods and armies, you need a substantial and good road network, you need networks of pre-emplaced forts and supply depots. You also need professional military forces that can smash larger forces of peasant levies when massively outnumbered, and everything that goes with a proper, professional, military and logistics core.
Doomsought
Well-known member
Also one of the main forms of attrition in medieval armies was desertion. Peasant leavies will just fuck off as soon as you look the other way. While they want to go back home, most of them don't know where home is anymore and many end up becoming bandits because all they have to their name is weapons and spite.
Buba
A total creep
Yup. Armies move at 25km a day.
Cavalry armies - unless these are Mongols - which means spare horses for everybody and NO carts - also move at 25km a day. It is the wagon train which dictates speed. Cavalry raids move faster, though.
Travel speeds in canon ASOIAF are la-la coocoo-cloud-land. With nobody ever using river barges or ships - which are the fastest means of transport of larger groups of people or goods in bulk.
I will now go and cool down before I rant my head off ...
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Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
"Peasant levies" is largely a myth. I wrote about it here:
Army of John Hunyadi and Matthias Corvinus
Become a Patron! Recruitment and organization John Hunyadi Both Hunyadis utilized army which was a combination of mercenaries and feudal banderia (banners – Exercitus Banderialis). Occassionally th…
fantasycore.home.blog
Social Background of the Army Organization
Any army is a reflection of society which creates it. Thus it is society, more than anything else, which will determine how army is shaped. This is evident throughout history: many attempts at repl…
fantasycore.home.blog
Proof that Westerosi armies are professionals
Note on terminology: by “professional” here I mean “people whose job is fighting”. It does not mean that it is necessarily their only job or that they are under arms 365/y, …
fantasycore.home.blog
TheRomanSlayer
Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
Not sure if there is a thread dedicated to fanfic recs and ideas for GoT/ASOIAF, but if there is, please close this thread.
Anyways, I do have several plot bunnies running around for various Game of Thrones centric fanfic, but the problem is, I haven't read the books yet, or even watched the whole series so far. So, here's my first ideas:
- For Want of a Bow, For Need of Fealty: What if Ned Stark personally went to Dragonstone to deliver the message containing his discovery of Robert's 'children' to Stannis instead of using a raven, making it vulnerable to interception by the Lannisters? Although the only minor change is that Stannis goes to King's Landing while Renly approaches Ned with a plan to take control of Joffrey by stopping Cersei. Another possible change is that Ned sends a written instruction that Stannis will deliver to Robb in case of his death that the North should bend the knee to the true king, thereby dissuading the likes of the GreatJon Umber from proclaiming Robb as the King in the North. The other point of divergence is that Stannis confiscates Joffrey's revolutionary crossbow while he caught him firing a bolt, killing a dog in the process. It may not change much, but the design of Joffrey's crossbow somehow intrigues the Dragonstone garrison to the point where Stannis orders its mass production.
- In the Company of Bastards and Castaways: Jon Snow runs away from Winterfell after an argument with Catelyn over an incident. Ramsay Snow is banished from the Dreadfort after Roose foils his attempt to kill Domeric. The result is that an unlikely kind of friendship is formed between the two bastard castaways, and somehow they end up either becoming sellswords when they grow up, or they are taken in by the Wildlings. However, Jon's friendship with Ramsay unleashes a rather Machiavellian side that Jon never knew he had.
Anyways, I do have several plot bunnies running around for various Game of Thrones centric fanfic, but the problem is, I haven't read the books yet, or even watched the whole series so far. So, here's my first ideas:
- For Want of a Bow, For Need of Fealty: What if Ned Stark personally went to Dragonstone to deliver the message containing his discovery of Robert's 'children' to Stannis instead of using a raven, making it vulnerable to interception by the Lannisters? Although the only minor change is that Stannis goes to King's Landing while Renly approaches Ned with a plan to take control of Joffrey by stopping Cersei. Another possible change is that Ned sends a written instruction that Stannis will deliver to Robb in case of his death that the North should bend the knee to the true king, thereby dissuading the likes of the GreatJon Umber from proclaiming Robb as the King in the North. The other point of divergence is that Stannis confiscates Joffrey's revolutionary crossbow while he caught him firing a bolt, killing a dog in the process. It may not change much, but the design of Joffrey's crossbow somehow intrigues the Dragonstone garrison to the point where Stannis orders its mass production.
- In the Company of Bastards and Castaways: Jon Snow runs away from Winterfell after an argument with Catelyn over an incident. Ramsay Snow is banished from the Dreadfort after Roose foils his attempt to kill Domeric. The result is that an unlikely kind of friendship is formed between the two bastard castaways, and somehow they end up either becoming sellswords when they grow up, or they are taken in by the Wildlings. However, Jon's friendship with Ramsay unleashes a rather Machiavellian side that Jon never knew he had.
Buba
A total creep
Jon offers hand of Best Sis Arya in marriage to Best Bro Ramsey. The two "click" and become known as Da Red Fangs of da Norff.
TheRomanSlayer
Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
Th
At least Ramsay gets the real Arya and not the disguised one.
TheRomanSlayer
Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
- The Storm Princess Reborn: What if Robert and Cersei had a trueborn child? Though this question often leads to fanfics where the trueborn child is a son in most cases, this time it is a trueborn daughter. If Robert and Cersei had a trueborn daughter, the succession would be in an even more complicated manner, since the trueborn daughter would have to fight Joffrey for the right to sit on the Iron Throne. In this case, Robert might arrange a marriage between his trueborn daughter and Robb Stark.
"My father was cuckolded twice in his life and in both instances it led to a war that crippled our nation while uncle Stannis, his fire witch and that cute bastard wolf beside me here are babbling about monsters made of ice and my cousin across the narrow sea has three Dragons..."
She leaned backwards, seated upon the Iron Throne, lounging between two jutting blades that seemed to refuse to so much as fray her dress, which of course came with a corset of segmented armor from Braavos. Few in the room could be said to deny that she more than her brother looked as though she belonged on that accursed chair.
A brother, who had fallen down the same flight of stairs her mother had. -Let it not be said that I possessed solely my father's fury, but my grandfather's cunning and my progenitor Aegon's vision-. Beside her, Jon Snow and his "brother" Rob named for her father stood like silent statues, her war wolves.
"Dragon or Lion I do not intend to end up dead because I enraged the wrong animal unlike my poor father and I do not intend to cow to my grandfather, who dares set a pretender up in my place though I love little Tommen and am no kinslayer " A theatrical flourish of her right hand later and the court went silent.
Eyes narrowed.
"Let it hence forth be known that Tywin Lannister is attainted, in his place I elevate the Lannisters of Lannisport to the dominion of the Rock, let them choose amongst themselves who rules the city by the sea and who the Rock. Let it be known, the Tywin Lannister is a blood traitor, a heretic, a defiler, a criminal cad who sent his poppy addled roughs to rape and murder my cousins who were but babes and butchered their mother. Let it be known that Tywin formerly of the Rock, Tywin the nameless seeks to wield my halfwitted half brother, Tommen waters; a Bastard born of incest by my mad mother and deviant uncle as a marionet in a mummers farce he intends to perpetrate on the Kingdom. Let it be known that all nobles within the Westerlands who cast their swords aside and bow in supplication to Lord Randyl Tarley the commander of my hosts in the Western campaign will be raised up as brother's and sisters, pardoned of all transgressions and granted land and titles. But those who resist? Shall know that mine is the fury, fire flows through my blood and I pay my debts in full. They will learn this as their children are slaughtered, their parents annihilated...their kin even twice removed ripped root and stem and given to the hangmen, as their lands are seized and auctioned or otherwise gifted as recompense to those who remained loyal or now change sides and fight and by the forfeiture of at least one champion of their family in battle pay a debt of loyalty to me in blood. They will learn this as every noble house that continues to aid and abet this grotesque fraud is eradicated from the very face of our world." She never raised her voice, she never needed to.
It cracked like thunder through the throne room and when she rose she purposefully cut her hand upon a blade of the Throne. This would be a blood oath, in the old style.
"So speaks Argella Baratheon, first of her name, Sovereign of the Firstmen, the Andals, the Rhoynar and the Valyrians of the narrow sea. Lady of the Seven Kingdoms, mistress of the East, West, North and South. Of House Baratheon, Lannister and Targaryen.
Queen of the seven Kingdoms and rider of the Storm."
It's late, I'm working on my own fic..But this came to me..Basically, "The seed is strong" indeed...in her case, all the seeds are strong.
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TheRomanSlayer
Unipolarity is for Subhuman Trogdolytes
So no Joffrey in this case at all? I can definitely see Ariel being wedded to Robb Stark, because her father would want this kind of match. I’d like to read a full fix about this. On the other hand, would Argella, daughter of Robert and Cersei, have a cordial relationship with Renly?
It depends if written the way I've written her above? A combination of Jeaharys, Tywin and Robert? I would assume she would make moves to outmaneuver the Tyrells while using the loyalty of the Starks and the Riverlands and the presumes threat of the Vale to keep him from declaring himself King.
And there would be a Joffrey, he would just have a really unfortunate accident, followed by her mother. Given who this one takes after.
I could definitely see Robert wanting Robb and his eldest daughter to wed though.