Sure, why not? If Joffrey can become a better person through time loops, maybe Cersei can too.
D
Deleted member 88
Guest
I think it would be an interesting story, though I'm not a tenth of the writer Baurus is. And it would likely take much much longer to get Cersei to where Joffrey is at.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Idea: Giants & Mammoths due to an agreement with a previous King Stark got to migrate to The Gift centuries before Aegon’s Conquest
The story involves the Giants facing the threat of constant extinction due to many “poachers” wanting to hunt them down for mammoth meat and giant skulls as trophies
The story involves the Giants facing the threat of constant extinction due to many “poachers” wanting to hunt them down for mammoth meat and giant skulls as trophies
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
@Lord Invictus
Say, what do you think would the reactions of Tywin Lannister, Varys, Petyr Baelish, Olenna Tyrell, Roose Bolton and other “players of the Great Game” would be if they were confronted with actual White Walkers/Others and Wights?
From a relatively safe distance to show them, yes it’s real, and yes it looks at everyone with hard to discern thoughts and emotions which might include mild amusement
I honestly think Roose Bolton would be one of those guys who would WANT to become a White Walker
Say, what do you think would the reactions of Tywin Lannister, Varys, Petyr Baelish, Olenna Tyrell, Roose Bolton and other “players of the Great Game” would be if they were confronted with actual White Walkers/Others and Wights?
From a relatively safe distance to show them, yes it’s real, and yes it looks at everyone with hard to discern thoughts and emotions which might include mild amusement
I honestly think Roose Bolton would be one of those guys who would WANT to become a White Walker
Why would they? I could honestly see them being treated pretty damn well by the Starks, who now have...in order; a race of super strong, super hardy guys who are capable of loyalty to humans when shown kindness and would probably happily be used as a labor and combat force in exchange for food, protection and shelter? And a grauntee that they could range unmolested.
And a source of meat in the winter? I could see them trying to breed mammoths to elephants to make a sub species that could be made into a sort of giganto cattle.
Baelish just up and leaves, Varys big brains in an attempt to unify everyone as he hates magic and isn't an idiot. I could see both Tywin and Olenna doing everything in their considerable power to try and unite everyone behind the Starks..So as to ensure all the fighting is contained in the North and doesn't effect their lands for as long as possible. Hoping to...when the dust settles, establish themselves as great unifiers and the power behind the heroes.
Roose would not wish to be a slave to a weird ice fairy...He'd probably feed his army to them and just bail Baelish style.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
I think Giants would have the problem of it being hard to armor them and well, they’re still beings of flesh and blood
I remember a fic wherein Greatjon Umber was told they were around as proof of the Others existing, he actually saw and scouted the giants and mammoths and decided “Yeah they’re real but they’re in no way supernatural. In fact I want to make a feast out of a mammoth”
So they’d have to be special shock troops more than anything
I thought while related, mammoths were almost a different species from elephants
Baelish would lose a lot of access to his investments and have to start anew, though not sure about what connections he has in Essos
What about Varys’ plot involving Fake!Aegon?
I think Tywin and Olenna can at the very least increase the supplies for a long drawn siege
Tywin would provide lots of smiths and metalworks whilst Olenna would send in extra food.
I think Roose would hear of Craster and think deals could be made, I mean they might be the most fascinating things he’s ever encountered
They're bipedal elephants with the ability to speak, Pentos, Volantis and Tyrosh have been armoring war elephants for centuries by that point if not longer. You don't really need a lot of armor for their mammoths either, in both cases its covering the essentials and allowing their immense durability and mass to do the rest.
Imagine, also a mammoth brigade charging into Reach horse or infantry to relieve Stannis? This also means you have a viable set of plows, tractors and bulldozers you can use to dig that canal across the North everyone faps about in fanfiction. All of this hinges on the Starks being able to earn the respect of the giants and convince them that a nice, safe place to settle down is better. Of course...
And you know..buying a bunch of elephants to try and crossbreed with.
That is an entirely unrealistic reaction to motherfucking bigfoot mounted on a god damn mastodon..Yeah the great John might react like that, because he's a god damn lunatic but any Southern soldier that sees that will shit a brick. I'd wager the same would be true for most of Umbar's men as well.
Hell I'd argue it'd even disorient Essosi forces until they realize that the hulking simpleton on the mammoths back is easier to manage than a bunch of archers on a crows nest, or a half way decent human smart mahoot. And even then I'd wager they'd approach them far more cautiously..
Ya gotta understand...War elephants weren't scary because people thought they were monsters. They were scary for the same reason the killdozer utterly demoralized law enforcement in that town or why tanks scare the shit out of people even in current year.
An elephant is a bulldozer with legs and a mammoth is basically The Big Bud with a cattle guard.
This is ASOIF where Ape men from whale island can fuck Andals and produce retard babies...Crossing an elephant with something far closer in kin would likely be doable...its yield might be really, really stupid.
But the point of that subbreed ain't smarts...its dinner..so.
Peter Baelish always gets compared to real life political figures from history, when the reality is that the dudes a glorified pimp with a quick wit and a good eye for the bigger picture.
Historically he has a lot more in common with this guy
The main difference being...Lucky was willing to throw hands when push came to shove. Baelish was willing to...go away.
"We wait until everyone exhausts themselves overcoming this evil, we render as much aid as we can discretely but prince Aegon should only show up at the darkest of moments"
They would do a great deal more than that..Likely send huge chunks of their armies up there while holding men like Devan and Kevan Lannister and Randyl Tarley back so the three can train and provision and prepare even more troops.
The smartest thing to do is to keep the ice fairies the fuck out of the South with all its population centers after all.
Prolly send assloads of wildfire up there too.
Roose is not the type of guy to get hard at the prospect of Snow Oberon.
That'd be Qyburn.
Roose would either do what he can to delay the inevitable and piss off to reestablish House Bolton elsewhere....or stay and fight for as long as he can, without compromising himself too much.
Ramsay is stupid enough to go bargain with the monsters though, thinking they'd respect his "talents".
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CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
My bad, thing is, I think that armour has to cover EVERYTHING, like you have to be covered in steel or metal everywhere. Though I admit aside from weight, there are flexibility issues and chances of being cooked alive by the sun in your own armour.
I have to bet the original Umbers were less Part-Giant and more Giant-Hunters, the Giant with chains on it showed them capturing Giants to be used as slave labor and trophies
A pimp who had the luck of having connections with a mentally disturbed woman and got to build from there. If it weren't for Lysa at all, I can bet the guy'd take a LONG time to even become a successful merchant, let alone a pimp.
Then "Prince Aegon" dies rather inconveniently along the way or turns out to lack that much skill and charisma to do much.
Might even get eaten by a dragon he tries taming
I can see politics becoming a problem there, they'd still expect rewards, hell some Lords or second/third/fourth/fifth sons and bastards may have their eyes on the Night Watch's castles and claim that the Watch is worthless as an institution and they should be given ownership of all those castles
Same for the Gift(New & Old)
Not to mention the usual logistics, gonna need lots of whores and alcohol, even if they do know they have to face Ice Demons
How would their armies adjust tactics though? I think they'd know the whole "Wights can/will keep moving even with their legs blown off and have unlimited stamina as well and can gang up on people with large numbers" and that's just those which were once human
I'm now thinking of Roose having a White Walker as a Guest and having to do whatever he can to keep in-character
Until he's given.....Ice Cream and Roose actually likes it before being informed it comes from a giant ice spider and then he pukes
Yup, I can see Ramsay becoming just another random Wight, a little fatter than the usual ones yes, but cannon fodder that'll be set aflame
Elephants are retardo tough, there's a good if sad video on youtube that gives you an idea just how tough. This poor bastard is walking about the bush with gangrene because he stepped on a mine or something and it blew half his foot off. The infection was so pronounced you could tell it had been weeks. A dude shows up with what looks like a Holland and Holld and the elephant seems him, senses he doesn't mean harm and just sorta lines up to let the guy put him out of his misery.
Or Elephants (Because they're actually smart as hell) Will routinely walk up to park rangers with bullet wounds in their heads and shoulders and ask for medical attention, with it being clear the poor fuckers have been walking around with a GSW for days/weeks.
Shit, newborn babies who get lost or abandoned in Asia or Africa are routinely rescued with their little tiny feet eight shades of fucked up or with third degree burns because assholes throw molotov cocktails at them to get them scared of their farms (This is retarded, keep bees..any no elephant or Rino or Hyena clan for that matter will go anywhere near your land. the Noise bees make is absolute torture for their ears. Plus honey is pretty profitable in Africa as its used for a shitload of different things besides food). And are tough enough that once you get a bottle in the little bastards, a few shots of penicillin and someone to play with they generally recover in a matter of days to weeks (Elephants can literally go into organ failure from depression or anxiety. PTSD would kill Stark War mammoths more than the enemy
).They don't need a lot of armor, their bodies are stupid tough. Mammoths have all of that, times two, plus fur.
It might even be dangerous to armor them beyond the bare minimum because they might overheat.
Naw what Giants and their mammoths likely need is enough space to safely settle, eat and fuck and probably a bit of stimulation. Pretty sure the Umbars would end up having the best relationship with them outside of the Starks because the Umbars seem crazy enough to actually go out and party with the giants.
The reason why war elephants were so rare outside of certain Empires was due to how expensive they were to maintain...And how fucking messy an elephants psychology is. They routinely get Rambo style PTSD attacks from less reputable circus acts, the impression I get is the bond between Rider and war elephant must have been absolute. Because they're incredibly intelligent, dynamic and hold grudges like you wouldn't believe.
Interestingly enough, there's also evidence they pass down things to their children the way Crows and humans do. As there's an entire breed of discarded war elephants. Either in china or Malaysia where their "division" was abandoned two thousand years ago. But even now they show an enormous amount of trust and friendliness with tourists and the rangers. To the point where they'll come out of the brush to hang out with their favorite wardens for lunch.
If giant's mammoths are anything like that...a side breed for labor and maybe logistics if they can crossbreed with imported elephants would be a huge boon to the North.
You're probably right. The truck is getting them to not be shitheads to their Giants and mammoths this time around...
I feel compelled to defend Luciano here too...the guy was genuinely so ridiculous, he's the only real life historical figure the FBI calls a "Master Criminal". Fuckers had no real world comparison to him, so they just up and called him a supervillain.
He also commanded the absolute loyalty of fuckers like Albert Anastasia, a man so sadistic and sociopathic he made Roose Bolton look like a reasonable noble. Supposedly the shit he did was so god awful even the FBI profilers who go after the worse humanity has to offer have nightmares and depression and anxiety issues after reading the transcripts of the shit he did.
He had a guy like Dutch Schultz who was famous for melting snitches in industrial acid while they were still alive, using STD riddled tampons to smear into the open wounds of his enemies and a dozen other awful shit that's up with the worst Gregor Clegane did...utterly terrified of him.
But yeah...Baelish is basically a diet Soda version of Lucky and there's no way he'd stick around..He'd hide in the South..making as much money as he can off the carnage..keep himself in KL all the while funneling immense amounts of embezzled and earned wealth into Essos..so he can get the fuck outta Dodge the moment he has enough breahtingh room.
Maybe, or the Targaryen and Blackfyre lines are unified by Deanarys and Aegon?
Exterminating The ice Fairies...may mean everything it meant in the show.
Westeros now has..a Canada to go explore, tame and settle. one where..immense quantities of precious metal have gone untouched...for tens of millennia.
It'll be the Alaskan gold rush...But with swords instead of colt's
Fire smoke zombie, Dragon Glass melt ice fairy?
Neato...BRING OUT THE WILDFIRE! A lot of the problems, the fairies exploited which lead to the victiories that ruined humanity ten thousand years ago..Ain't present now.
It's still going to be absolutely awful..but, people are way more organized. Possess means of delivering inordinate amounts of fire to the front and have Dragons.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
@The Immortal Watch Dog
Sounds like a recipe for some weirdly cute interactions. Like some Smallfolk go to meet/see the Giants and their Mammoths who are spooked by all the people themselves. Only for some people to approach and be allowed to touch, things seem dangerous at first before more interaction ensues.
Ten minutes later the Local Lord is taxing the new Ride-A-Mammoth service by 20% and demanding 20% of all Mammoth milk and cheese that everyone else is buying
I remember this fic on SB, where it’s noted that Giants were almost below Stone Age and barely had a culture, but apparently had a sort of possible word-of-mouth and song record keeping system passed for thousands of years. Even with the immense distance and thousands of years of seperation, the Giants that served under the Starks recognized House Tarly and went “Huntsman! No escape, beware the blade”, possibly having had a distant grudge involving House Tarly wiping out a large number of Giants in The Reach and using Heartsbane
The Umbers might just be enthusiastic enough to go actually meet them
Real life definitely outmatches “realistic” characters in terms of horror and absurdity
I don’t think lots of Southerners would be eager to live in a place that’s really cold. Also, I think that’s more or less the end of the Wildlings/Free Folk as a culture, unless they live like the Mountain Clans of the Vale and have to constantly move around “our now stolen land” and raid the Kneelers in places that was once owned by the Thenns and other areas
Ned Stark will have his work cut out for him afterwards, due to such an increase in migrants and “game players” arguing over land and resources, even if they are just nearby.
Though what would it take for prospectors to think Beyond-The-Wall has any good resources of note?
Fewer will want to go look at the Lands of Always Winter due to probably being even colder
Sounds like a recipe for some weirdly cute interactions. Like some Smallfolk go to meet/see the Giants and their Mammoths who are spooked by all the people themselves. Only for some people to approach and be allowed to touch, things seem dangerous at first before more interaction ensues.
Ten minutes later the Local Lord is taxing the new Ride-A-Mammoth service by 20% and demanding 20% of all Mammoth milk and cheese that everyone else is buying
I remember this fic on SB, where it’s noted that Giants were almost below Stone Age and barely had a culture, but apparently had a sort of possible word-of-mouth and song record keeping system passed for thousands of years. Even with the immense distance and thousands of years of seperation, the Giants that served under the Starks recognized House Tarly and went “Huntsman! No escape, beware the blade”, possibly having had a distant grudge involving House Tarly wiping out a large number of Giants in The Reach and using Heartsbane
The Umbers might just be enthusiastic enough to go actually meet them
Real life definitely outmatches “realistic” characters in terms of horror and absurdity
I don’t think lots of Southerners would be eager to live in a place that’s really cold. Also, I think that’s more or less the end of the Wildlings/Free Folk as a culture, unless they live like the Mountain Clans of the Vale and have to constantly move around “our now stolen land” and raid the Kneelers in places that was once owned by the Thenns and other areas
Ned Stark will have his work cut out for him afterwards, due to such an increase in migrants and “game players” arguing over land and resources, even if they are just nearby.
Though what would it take for prospectors to think Beyond-The-Wall has any good resources of note?
Fewer will want to go look at the Lands of Always Winter due to probably being even colder
To the bastard King Joffrey Waters, First of his name, son of a harlot queen, grandson of Tywin child killer. puppet of the golden whore of the rock and simpleton pawn of her malignant father. When we went to bed last night, we went to our rest assured that we possessed twenty seven granddaughters, this morning to our everlasting horror and grief we woke to find that we had only twenty six. We heard that your subjects Walder Frey, Lord of mongrels, usurer and cheat and the effete, skinner of peasants and raper orchestrated an ambush at the wedding of Robb Stark and Talissa Meagyr.
The low cunning of Andal Ape men no doubt deluded you into believing that this was a strategically brilliant maneuver. We will not waste time attempting to educate the dead bodies of backwards savages into why massacring your own subjects in defiance of your queer impressions of the wrathful Valar is a fool's venture save to remind you that we know Walder the rat, the usurer to be incapable of such....intelligence...may Eru, the artificer of our exile to your miserable hemisphere forgive me for the use of such word to describe Andal vermin. Simply spoken; we know it was Tywin the castrated lion, the killer of babes and the wielder of dogs. We know it was by your order that our granddaughter perished.
Talissa Meagyr does not exist, she is a figment, a name taken by our youngest granddaughter that we bid wander the wider world to learn of the lesser races she would one day inherit some small measure of Dominion over. why she foolishly impersonated a Volanteen fornicator or fell in love with a Northern cur is a mystery only Eru, artificer of our exile to your miserable hemisphere knows. Our dearest Brethiel was misguided, foolish and whimsical but she was still our granddaughter and the death of one of the line of Elros by the hand of a monkey is an affront we cannot tolerate. That you further compounded this by murdering our first great-grandchild only ensures your fate.
Do not deny of the charges we have levied against you Tywin of the caves, Lion who skulks. Our knowledge is keen, our eyes see far, our might and understanding of the deeper mysteries of Endor is beyond your ken.
We know what you did
Let us then be clear.
House Lannister is dead.
House Frey is dead.
House Bolton is dead.
The Riverlands will forfeit the lives of half the population for this insult. Noble and smallfolk alike shall come under the knife. We, shall spare the north the righteous and enlightened justice we would bestow upon the Riverlands because our granddaughter decided to make congress with its chief savage. In deference to her..adoration... But the Westerlands?
It is forfeit entirely.
All who dwell there shall be dead by the end of Winter. There will be no one permitted to endure, we will put to sword every son and daughter your worthless province. You, who believe gold grants you power, who believe himself acquainted with savagery will behold the annihilation of every house descended from your diseased line. Your son will be burned alive in our sorcerous fires as tribute to the King he slew. Your daughter will be raped by the Ape legions of Sothroyos, I shall turned my armored baboons upon her flesh and they shall do with her what they please, all twenty thousand of their ilk and your granddaughter shall have her eyes plucked and she shall be fed to our hounds of war while still alive and your grandsons will be gelded, impaled and special sorcery shall be utilized to ensure they die not in hours, days nor weeks but the whole of Kings landing shall hear their cries for months before they pass into shadow. We will disinter the body of your lady wife and give her cadaver to the most depraved of our skirmishers and only then will we permit your death Tywin of the Rock. Only your deformed son shall be allowed to live, we will make him ruler of the echo of the West, charge him with rebuilding and repeopling our new province.
We will do this, in mockery of the cave tabbies who fancy themselves lions.
Know this, a dark power grows in your north and Eru, artificer of our exile has bid us bring it down. A last remnant of an ancient war your wretched kind has forgotten. We shall fulfil our duty to our divine jailor. We will pass over the wall an ocean of silver and black and bring ruin and doom upon the powers of snow and frost. We shall do this, but first we shall come.
We shall come for you, we shall come for the seven kingdoms that should have been provinces, we will come through the Westerlands, a host the likes of which you cannot fathom shall be mustered. All the powers of our domain and all the might of the blood of Numenor. We will bring to heel the remnants of Aegon the warlord's legacy, appoint his bastard grandson and his aunt lover upon the Throne as our vassals. We will graciously permit their Dragons to breed and breed wildly for it has long been since one of my kind hunted a Dragon for sport and we wish to have a sizable and robust population to ensure countless sons and daughters of Elros may know the rare privilege.
You are damned, you are dead.
Your people shall be erased.
Your line and all its branches reduced to one malformed drunkard.
Your world is ended.
We are coming.
We shall avenge our granddaughter.
We shall destroy the night and lay claim to Westeros.
Our celestial mandate shall not be denied.
Signed, Ar Pharazon II , the radiant sovereign, son of Ar Imrazil the burner of the shadow. Master of the Valryians, Dothraki, Yiti'i, Ghiscari, the eighty tribes of Sothroyos, Liberator of the slaves of the swamps of Braavos, the beast men of Ibb and the goat men of Qohor and the Axe lovers of Norvos. Emperor of Essos and Sothroyos, King of the exiled, son of Elros....Son of Beren and Luthien, scourge of the Ainu, the pressed servant of Eru the wrathful.
Lord of all the Earth.
Came to me while I was writing a chapter for Through the Looking Glass....Not sure if I'll ever do anything with it...but since this thread's been dead since November...I figured why not try and revive it.
The low cunning of Andal Ape men no doubt deluded you into believing that this was a strategically brilliant maneuver. We will not waste time attempting to educate the dead bodies of backwards savages into why massacring your own subjects in defiance of your queer impressions of the wrathful Valar is a fool's venture save to remind you that we know Walder the rat, the usurer to be incapable of such....intelligence...may Eru, the artificer of our exile to your miserable hemisphere forgive me for the use of such word to describe Andal vermin. Simply spoken; we know it was Tywin the castrated lion, the killer of babes and the wielder of dogs. We know it was by your order that our granddaughter perished.
Talissa Meagyr does not exist, she is a figment, a name taken by our youngest granddaughter that we bid wander the wider world to learn of the lesser races she would one day inherit some small measure of Dominion over. why she foolishly impersonated a Volanteen fornicator or fell in love with a Northern cur is a mystery only Eru, artificer of our exile to your miserable hemisphere knows. Our dearest Brethiel was misguided, foolish and whimsical but she was still our granddaughter and the death of one of the line of Elros by the hand of a monkey is an affront we cannot tolerate. That you further compounded this by murdering our first great-grandchild only ensures your fate.
Do not deny of the charges we have levied against you Tywin of the caves, Lion who skulks. Our knowledge is keen, our eyes see far, our might and understanding of the deeper mysteries of Endor is beyond your ken.
We know what you did
Let us then be clear.
House Lannister is dead.
House Frey is dead.
House Bolton is dead.
The Riverlands will forfeit the lives of half the population for this insult. Noble and smallfolk alike shall come under the knife. We, shall spare the north the righteous and enlightened justice we would bestow upon the Riverlands because our granddaughter decided to make congress with its chief savage. In deference to her..adoration... But the Westerlands?
It is forfeit entirely.
All who dwell there shall be dead by the end of Winter. There will be no one permitted to endure, we will put to sword every son and daughter your worthless province. You, who believe gold grants you power, who believe himself acquainted with savagery will behold the annihilation of every house descended from your diseased line. Your son will be burned alive in our sorcerous fires as tribute to the King he slew. Your daughter will be raped by the Ape legions of Sothroyos, I shall turned my armored baboons upon her flesh and they shall do with her what they please, all twenty thousand of their ilk and your granddaughter shall have her eyes plucked and she shall be fed to our hounds of war while still alive and your grandsons will be gelded, impaled and special sorcery shall be utilized to ensure they die not in hours, days nor weeks but the whole of Kings landing shall hear their cries for months before they pass into shadow. We will disinter the body of your lady wife and give her cadaver to the most depraved of our skirmishers and only then will we permit your death Tywin of the Rock. Only your deformed son shall be allowed to live, we will make him ruler of the echo of the West, charge him with rebuilding and repeopling our new province.
We will do this, in mockery of the cave tabbies who fancy themselves lions.
Know this, a dark power grows in your north and Eru, artificer of our exile has bid us bring it down. A last remnant of an ancient war your wretched kind has forgotten. We shall fulfil our duty to our divine jailor. We will pass over the wall an ocean of silver and black and bring ruin and doom upon the powers of snow and frost. We shall do this, but first we shall come.
We shall come for you, we shall come for the seven kingdoms that should have been provinces, we will come through the Westerlands, a host the likes of which you cannot fathom shall be mustered. All the powers of our domain and all the might of the blood of Numenor. We will bring to heel the remnants of Aegon the warlord's legacy, appoint his bastard grandson and his aunt lover upon the Throne as our vassals. We will graciously permit their Dragons to breed and breed wildly for it has long been since one of my kind hunted a Dragon for sport and we wish to have a sizable and robust population to ensure countless sons and daughters of Elros may know the rare privilege.
You are damned, you are dead.
Your people shall be erased.
Your line and all its branches reduced to one malformed drunkard.
Your world is ended.
We are coming.
We shall avenge our granddaughter.
We shall destroy the night and lay claim to Westeros.
Our celestial mandate shall not be denied.
Signed, Ar Pharazon II , the radiant sovereign, son of Ar Imrazil the burner of the shadow. Master of the Valryians, Dothraki, Yiti'i, Ghiscari, the eighty tribes of Sothroyos, Liberator of the slaves of the swamps of Braavos, the beast men of Ibb and the goat men of Qohor and the Axe lovers of Norvos. Emperor of Essos and Sothroyos, King of the exiled, son of Elros....Son of Beren and Luthien, scourge of the Ainu, the pressed servant of Eru the wrathful.
Lord of all the Earth.
Came to me while I was writing a chapter for Through the Looking Glass....Not sure if I'll ever do anything with it...but since this thread's been dead since November...I figured why not try and revive it.
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Buba
A total creep
Isn't something like this claimed for Australian Aboriginals, that their oral lore has references to places flooded by rising seas ten or twelve thousand years ago?
Karmic Acumen
Well-known member
All pagan cultures had this before the heathen killers, rune destroyers and book burners of the various churches. The Eddas are just a fragment of what Norse oral culture had and speak of a "giant of ice" whose death ended the primordial chaos and whose corpse became the world (i.e. Yimir was the ice age-causing comet/meteor), the Celts had a very complex oral tradition even before the Tuatha de Dannan propaganda.
Hell, the Finns actually managed to recollect their entire Creation Epic (The Kalevala) which speaks of the great flood, the "Water Mother, Ether's daughter" coming down from heaven and floating adrift at sea and twisting and turning until something eerily reminiscent of volcanic activity created dry land (there was a magical duck involved). The Kalevela also teaches agriculture, Finnish traditions (herbalism, clothing, common sense wisdom like not shoving your young maiden daughter onto an old man even if he's your literal god, etc.). Hells, this oral tradition is why we know people once thought all iron came from space (meteoric iron was pure enough to forge and make steel with even during the bronze age, thus all the legends about legendary smiths making 'magic' swords, probably).
Also, Romania's solomonari and Solomonanta (Scholomance) apparently predate literally everything (including Rome, Zalmoxis and the slavs) and describe tall, red-haired men that controlled the weather and unleashed storms on people who refused hospitality to their beggar disguise. That's Thor, Perun and Odin all in one. (Apparently, Solomonanta was where they were taught, a mountaintop retreat near the modern location of Sibiu by a mysterious being that only taught seven students at once, one of whom stayed behind forever).
So yeah. Giants having a long-standing oral tradition in ASOIAF isn't unlikely. It's certainly more likely than them being depicted sympathetically, seeing as they were the enemy in (almost?) every oral tradition ever.
I'm only surprised Martin didn't give the Wildlings a proper oral tradition too. I mean sure, they have stories and songs, but those are obviously recent or made up, as opposed to the long epics of ancestral wisdom that cultures without the written word had to develop in order to achieve the cultural cohesion they showed before the history-destroying mass persecution of the various incarnations of a certain centralized desert religion. The North should have had them too actually. And any other continuous first men tribes/demesnes.
Then again, Martin seems to have some very peculiar blind spots for someone who deliberately writes the same recurring story: he literally said the Old Tongue was a thing (for twice the bonus, he made it distinct from runes), but none of the Wildlings are literate (save maybe the Thenns, and even then they only seem to have some rune stuff and nobody seems to carry anything resembling a book anywhere).
Buba
A total creep
Wow!
Mystery of Korpiklaani album cover explained!
Telling a duck from a swan is too much to expect from a folkmetal band, I take it
Karmic Acumen
Well-known member
Wow!
Mystery of Korpiklaani album cover explained!
Telling a duck from a swan is too much to expect from a folkmetal band, I take it
So a fic idea.
An insert into the younger brother of Aegon the Conqueror, born in place of Rhaenys. SI takes the daughter of Torrhen Stark as his wife and the Vale as his province (killing off the Arryns).
This is done for a great many reasons, but the biggest one is to ensure a war with the Faith. The SI is fully aware that while the Faith and its adherents could be forced to kneel for a time, they would ever be a restive populace and would clash with the crown.
The Old Gods, on the other hand, have no organized infrastructure to create a competing power base around. That is combines the First Men with the Dragonlords is also of no little note. It also wins the Dragons the loyalty of the First Men.
As for the Vale, well it makes a very secure base for one who has dragons. It also lets the throne secure the entire east coast of the continent behind defensible rivers, at least if one puts in the effort to connect the Green Fork to the Gods Eye. With the Crownlands under the control of the Iron Throne directly, the Vale under a Targaryen cadet branch, and the North tied close to the Throne they have a secure power base from which to rule.
Of course, there is also burning Old Town to the ground and eliminating the High Towers before they can get any ideas.
The SI is of the opinion that if one is going to build an Empire out of Fire and Blood, then one should actually ensure that the old (and competing) power bases are properly burned out. No Maesters left to play their own games and poison the crowns primary base of support (fire breathing lizards), no Faith left to undermine the crown and condemn its practices, and no High Towers left to fuck over everything; because fuck High Towers.
The less peaceful Conquest results in no moves being made against Dorne at the time, and Aegon only being married to the one sister results in a less ... fractious ... succession.
The closer relationship between the Crown and the North, along with the more restive Andals, has the Crown encouraging a Northern fleet to be developed and based on the western coast. With every intention of, once the Ironborn prove themselves stupid enough to return to the old ways/break their oaths/pirate the kingdoms shipping, putting the locals to the torch and installing a new lord. The SI's plan is to have a son or daughter of the crown marry a son or daughter of the Starks and, once they are of age, engineer that rebellion if needed so that the throne has the excuse it needs to unleash the dragons. Put the local nobility to the torch, install the couple as the new Lord and Lady of the Iron Islands, and move in a large population from the rest of the kingdoms (along with wiping out all of the Drowned Gods priests).
Dragonstone is turned into the private reserve of the Dragonlords, no one else is allowed, and all houses with dragons (i.e. the Crown, the Vale, the Iron Islands) are required to foster their children on Dragonstone to receive their education. The true purpose being to ensure that they remain loyal first to one another and prevent other entities from being able to mold and manipulate those who can/will control Dragons.
An insert into the younger brother of Aegon the Conqueror, born in place of Rhaenys. SI takes the daughter of Torrhen Stark as his wife and the Vale as his province (killing off the Arryns).
This is done for a great many reasons, but the biggest one is to ensure a war with the Faith. The SI is fully aware that while the Faith and its adherents could be forced to kneel for a time, they would ever be a restive populace and would clash with the crown.
The Old Gods, on the other hand, have no organized infrastructure to create a competing power base around. That is combines the First Men with the Dragonlords is also of no little note. It also wins the Dragons the loyalty of the First Men.
As for the Vale, well it makes a very secure base for one who has dragons. It also lets the throne secure the entire east coast of the continent behind defensible rivers, at least if one puts in the effort to connect the Green Fork to the Gods Eye. With the Crownlands under the control of the Iron Throne directly, the Vale under a Targaryen cadet branch, and the North tied close to the Throne they have a secure power base from which to rule.
Of course, there is also burning Old Town to the ground and eliminating the High Towers before they can get any ideas.
The SI is of the opinion that if one is going to build an Empire out of Fire and Blood, then one should actually ensure that the old (and competing) power bases are properly burned out. No Maesters left to play their own games and poison the crowns primary base of support (fire breathing lizards), no Faith left to undermine the crown and condemn its practices, and no High Towers left to fuck over everything; because fuck High Towers.
The less peaceful Conquest results in no moves being made against Dorne at the time, and Aegon only being married to the one sister results in a less ... fractious ... succession.
The closer relationship between the Crown and the North, along with the more restive Andals, has the Crown encouraging a Northern fleet to be developed and based on the western coast. With every intention of, once the Ironborn prove themselves stupid enough to return to the old ways/break their oaths/pirate the kingdoms shipping, putting the locals to the torch and installing a new lord. The SI's plan is to have a son or daughter of the crown marry a son or daughter of the Starks and, once they are of age, engineer that rebellion if needed so that the throne has the excuse it needs to unleash the dragons. Put the local nobility to the torch, install the couple as the new Lord and Lady of the Iron Islands, and move in a large population from the rest of the kingdoms (along with wiping out all of the Drowned Gods priests).
Dragonstone is turned into the private reserve of the Dragonlords, no one else is allowed, and all houses with dragons (i.e. the Crown, the Vale, the Iron Islands) are required to foster their children on Dragonstone to receive their education. The true purpose being to ensure that they remain loyal first to one another and prevent other entities from being able to mold and manipulate those who can/will control Dragons.
LindyAF
Well-known member
IMO you ought to flesh out a bit more of what said SI is up against. The Vale was the hotbed of the Faith of the Seven, the place where IIRC the andals first landed in Westeros. Burning out everyone rival power base is going to leave the Targs with fewer rivals once they do it... but while they’re still in the process, the people in those power bases aren’t going to sit around and play at status quo.
The Vale actually had a fairly substantial minority of First Men in it.
And yeah, it will basically be a civil war but dragons and a willingness to use them along with both Valyrian and First Men forces (courtesy of the North) provide a relatively secure power base to build from.
I mean step one is to fire ALL the Arryn servants and replace them with staff from Dragonstone.
Step two is to make an example of the first noble to step out of line, as in dragons torching castles and/or cities.
The true base of Targ power is that they have dragons. Field an army of any size and 1) they will be able to see it from the air and 2) they will be able to burn it. You also can't withstand a siege if the attacker has dragons. So long as a Targ is willing to torch a castle or city, the castle or city is utterly indefensible. And once you do it once, all you need to do from then on is send in the bards to tell the rank and file and small folk of the holding that they can either send out the lords family or they can burn alongside him.
Then you have the advantage of the Vale. Specifically, the Eyrie is essentially impossible to attack unless you have dragons.
The Faith is an issue because of how many small folk follow it. Fortunately, that can be broken. Small folk lack the ability to organize and coordinate at scale, or the resources to be a serious threat on their own. If the nobles support a small folk rebellion then those nobles are easy targets, or at least their holdings are.
The Faith is a threat because it can provide that coordination, but even that can be broken relatively easily. Torch Old Town and you get most of the leadership and stored wealth. Assassinate Septons who become too prominent or refuse to toe the line.
Once you have the organization of the Faith broken, then you start on the hearts and minds of the small folk. For starters, "The Old Gods demand no tithes from you.". It's not like it will be super easy or anything but you also have to remember it's a medieval society.
The small folk aren't literate, the vast majority of them will never go more than twenty miles from their birth village, their biggest concerns are the weather and the crops. You also have to remember the wars to come.
You impress the Andal men of the smallfolk into your forces and leave the First Men behind, and you ensure that your Andal levies are always thrown into the thickest of the fighting while also being last for all of the supplies of note. Then you grant land in Andal heavy villages to returning First Men in/around the areas you impressed the Andal men from. The Andal wives and daughters are lacking husbands and fathers to protect and provide for them; the natural result is that they will end up involved with those First Men you imported.
You replace the local noble in the areas where the Faith is the strongest (either convict them of a crime or frame them) with a lord opposed to the Faith.
When winter comes, you prioritize the towns and villages where the Faith is the weakest for supplies.
Give it two or three generations (and remember that small folk live shorter lives, so two or three generations isn't that long a period of time) and you can quite thoroughly break the Faith and replace it.
The real mistake(s) that the Targaryens made were 1) Aegon deciding to let the Most Devout kneel, 2) Maegor deciding not to actually purge the Faith, and 3) Rhaenyra's first act when her brother was proclaimed King not being to take her dragons to Old Town and burn the entire city to the ground before sending out a proclamation to every city and town that she was Queen, the Lords had accepted her as the Heir and sworn fealty when her father still lived, and she was not going to be forgiving of those who broke oath; anyone who proclaimed for her brother would have their holdings incinerated.
The basis of the Targaryens power, what won and kept them on the throne, was Fire and Blood. Since none of them were smart enough to build up a loyal power base outside that fact, the dragons and the willingness to use them remained the basis of their claim. The Targaryens fell when they proved unwilling to make good the threat. "Kneel or Burn." is what Aegon built the throne on, and he proved at Harrenhal that he was perfectly willing to go with Burn. Later Targs forgot that fact and in the end it cost them.
Part of me is tempted to continue this, but fuck if I know how to make it anything other than a fix fic/stomp fic..and I kind of hate both.