Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

Just for fun, I'm going to pick this apart piece by piece.
They were doing the exact same thing they did in grozny and in syria. A slow, steady grind of artillery, followed up by infantry assaults to clear the rubble. Its the exact technique.

As for what i am doing? I am opposing the very Empire that wants to throw people in prison for saying that men cant get pregnant.
Supporting Russia is not an effective way of doing this. Making common cause with a clearly monstrous regime does little except make the people you're allying against seem more reasonable. Much like how the communists in the USSR seemed reasonable to the West during WWII, in spite of being terrible monsters themselves.

You're actually helping your cultural enemy here, by tying yourself to your military enemy.

I dont care much about Putin or the Russia and have little interest in Russian culture. As an anglo-canadian i actually sympathise with the desire of the Ukrainians to forge an identity apart from Russia. Believe me, i understand what its like to be right next to a goliath with whom you share intimate political, cultural and linguistic ties that considers you to be its backyard.

What i want to see is the defeat of the Rainbow Empire, because its defeat is a precondition of my liberation and your liberation as well. The Rainbow Empire wants to turn the entire planet into one big gay disco of rootless consumerbots dominated by an omnipresent crowd sourced panopticon and throw everyone who dissents into a prison.

If the Empire wins this war, its power grows and things get far worse for us. If it loses, it grows weaker and more discredited. So i stand with Russia.
You show your lack of understanding of the modern political left, much less how to defeat it.

The existence of this war at all is a defeat for them. It shows that no, we have not reached 'The End of History,' that you still need to use force to stop evil men, and that pretending they'll stop if you just be nice and appease them is a fantasy.

The political left needs to be defeated culturally and philosophically. Ukraine getting crushed and raped by Russia would help this... how exactly?

As for Russia?

They went into this completely unprepared. They did not prepare for a large long campaign, instead they gambled on a quick blitz and lost.
Yes, they did go in unprepared.

Unlike the USA, Russia didnt spend most of the years since ww2 in constant warfare. They were inexperienced and it showed. Then they spent 6 months trying to figure out what to do, and in september finally decided to go for the gusto and began to properly mobilise. All the time since then has been Russia pressing the reset button, mobilising and applying its lessons learned.
As Zachowon already pointed out, yes the Russians have been in frequent warfare since WW2. In fact, you cite one of their recent conflicts earlier in this post.

Are you deliberately lying, or are you actually so far into double-think you didn't even realize it?


Russia was never 'losing'. What you saw as Ukrainian victory was just the up and down on a graph. But the trend line bends towards russian victory. Russia is pursuing a military and economic strategy. Ukraine is pursuing a media strategy in the hopes of foreign intervention or some miracle.
Russia is absolutely losing. They have made no substantial territorial gains since the first few months of the war, and by the accounts of Russians, they've been running low on material, they're forced to dig deeper and deeper into stocks of ever-more-obsolete hardware, and they're getting their mobiks slaughtered in job lots rather than training them to useful levels and deploying them judiciously.

And the Ukrainians need to play a media strategy to some degree. The constant influx of war material from the West is an absolutely critical part of their war effort.

How would america have fared in this? It depends on them neutralising Ukraines air defenses. w/o its unlimited air power it would struggle too. The USA does not have the artillery power that Russia has. They would be much better on the tactical level, the legacy of the GWOT, but on the operational level? I think they would have struggled a great deal if the Ukrainians were being backed to same level by an outside power.
America would have completely wiped out the enemy's air force in the first few hours, and the entirety of their air defense network in the first few days. The USA does not keep as large a reserve of artillery, because that's not part of its doctrine. Aerospace supremacy, then the use of air support is.

After the enemy's air defenses were completely surpresed, and without western-provided Stinger missiles to make light infantry capable of attacking Close Air Support, the ability to immediately target and pulverize any hardened enemy lodgement would be fully utilize.

Additionally, since the US's armored and mechanized infantry forces are actually bloody well competent, and aren't corrupt to the level of selling half the fuel for the offensive, Kyiv actually would have fallen in the first few days.

On top of that, since the USA doesn't have a history of trying to genocide the Ukrainian people, and has a well-known public track record of spending obscene quantities of money to rebuild nations it 'liberates,' the Ukrainians would have an attitude of 'die on our feet fighting them, or starve to death slowly after they conquer us,' so resistance would be nowhere near as ferocious, and they'd have a lot more motivation to surrender.
Far too many Americans suffer from desertstormitis. The American victories over Iraq were just the modern version of Victorian era Redcoats with gatling guns mowing down native tribesmen. Nothing more.

And just FYI, I am no edgy teen. My roots in this place go back to the era when spacebattles was still about fan movies of spacebattles. ;)

And here you show your ignorance of what Desert Storm was like.

The Iraqi miltiary in 1991 was enormous, and equipped with reasonably-solid Cold War military technology. Not much of the latest Cold-War era hardware, but given that the USSR hadn't actually even dissolved yet, even 70's gear was a lot more recent than you might think.

In six weeks, the coalition forces destroyed over 3300 Iraqi tanks, over 2100 APCs, 2200 artillery pieces, and 110 combat aircraft.

To be clear, in six weeks more military hardware was destroyed than Russia or Ukraine has lost in sixteen months of conflict.

Everyone forgets that in 2006 Israel fought, and could not decisively defeat a much weaker opponent that was heavily dug in and made liberal use of anti-tank rockets. War has changed. And we are seeing now how war has changed.
I'm not really sure what is going on with your mind here. First off, Israel got more or less what it wanted out of that conflict, even though it ended after barely a month.

Second, 80%+ of this war is not 'war has changed,' it is instead 'nations too poor to fight like modern militaries instead fight like cold war militaries.' Drone utilization is the only major change, pretty much everything else has been a rolling series of laughs at how badly Russia has failed at acting like a competent, modern military.

For those of us who actually make a serious study of war, there was a lot of hope that the conflict in Ukraine would give us some idea how modern military conflict could be expected to play out. Unfortunately, it was very quickly proven that this was not going to be the case, and the reason it wasn't going to happen, was because of the utter mind-boggling incompetence of the Russian Armed Forces.

Airpower has been at the forefront of every military conflict NATO powers have been primary movers in, from Korea onward. Mobility, response times, raw firepower, the sheer utility of air-power is enormous, and it has been critical everywhere from Vietnam to the Falklands to the Middle East.

Russia failed to take advantage of that.

Failed miserably.

Bloody hundred-dollar civilian-grade drones have been a more significant contributor to the war than Russia's billion-dollar air force. They failed to wipe out the Ukrainian air force, they've failed to fully suppress Ukraine's air defenses, and they have next to no ability to give Close Air Support. They've been having their helicopters stay at stand-off distances, and 'lob' unguided weapons at targets, which is even less accurate than conventional tube artillery.

The Russian military is a laughingstock among people who used to consider them a credible counter-balance to NATO.

They managed to go from 'getting their asses kicked' to 'fighting a stalemate with marginal progress in one city' by resorting to World War I attrition and artillery saturation attacks. Now to be fair, they're decent at artillery saturation, but the reason for that is because it has one of the lowest competence thresholds to accomplish its basic objective. It's also not actually very effective if the enemy is willing to bunker down in their trenches and fox holes

The only reason Russia hasn't been completely kicked out of Ukraine, is because for everything else, they are 3-4 times the size, and they do have massive stockpiles of war material left over from the Cold War.

But they've been steadily burning through those stockpiles; intel is patchy on how much longer they'll last, but they aren't going to last forever.


Now, all of this said, I know you aren't going to listen to me. I know you're going to just stay in the world of your own fantasy, where Bakhmut wasn't a horrible catastrophe and waste of time for Russia, where Ukraine has been attrited to bits and isn't in the process of winding up a big offensive operation, but like I said, this is mostly just for my own amusement.

Also, so that you can't claim nobody tried to tell you, tried to reach you in spite of you being so clearly out of touch with reality.
 
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And here you show your ignorance of what Desert Storm was like.

The Iraqi miltiary in 1991 was enormous, and equipped with reasonably-solid Cold War military technology. Not much of the latest Cold-War era hardware, but given that the USSR hadn't actually even dissolved yet, even 70's gear was a lot more recent than you might think.

In six weeks, the coalition forces destroyed over 3300 Iraqi tanks, over 2100 APCs, 2200 artillery pieces, and 110 combat aircraft.

To be clear, in six weeks more military hardware was destroyed than Russia or Ukraine has lost in sixteen months of conflict.
Eh, both of you are mistaken in a lot of things, but I will just address this one...

Yes, Iraqi military in 1991. was enormous. It was also completely useless. Saddam was concerned with staying in power - he was a military dictator, after all - and so he basically gutted his army so that it wouldn't challenge him (same thing Putin did, in fact). His only real power was the Republican Guard - but that was geared against its own people, equipped by and trained by the Soviets. And this is before you even get into general Arab incompetence with all matters pertaining to conventional military - selling fuel, selling ranks, making up ghost soldiers and pocketing their pay... everything bad everybody says about Russian army? Arabs had all of that, cranked up to eleven and then one rotation around again, plus a whole list of issues unique to them. Just read this for a decent if short overview.

Army isn't hardware, army is personnel. And Iraqi personnel was worthless. Destroying its hardware was frankly about as impressive as destroying targets at White Sands. As it was, the biggest - in fact, the only - real challenge the Coalition forces faced was getting to Iraq in the first place. Once they got there, it was already case closed, only thing that remained was making it official. In fact, handwave logistics away, and Croatian army of the time would have been perfectly capable of defeating the Iraqi army.
 
Eh, both of you are mistaken in a lot of things, but I will just address this one...

Yes, Iraqi military in 1991. was enormous. It was also completely useless. Saddam was concerned with staying in power - he was a military dictator, after all - and so he basically gutted his army so that it wouldn't challenge him (same thing Putin did, in fact). His only real power was the Republican Guard - but that was geared against its own people, equipped by and trained by the Soviets. And this is before you even get into general Arab incompetence with all matters pertaining to conventional military - selling fuel, selling ranks, making up ghost soldiers and pocketing their pay... everything bad everybody says about Russian army? Arabs had all of that, cranked up to eleven and then one rotation around again, plus a whole list of issues unique to them. Just read this for a decent if short overview.

Army isn't hardware, army is personnel. And Iraqi personnel was worthless. Destroying its hardware was frankly about as impressive as destroying targets at White Sands. As it was, the biggest - in fact, the only - real challenge the Coalition forces faced was getting to Iraq in the first place. Once they got there, it was already case closed, only thing that remained was making it official. In fact, handwave logistics away, and Croatian army of the time would have been perfectly capable of defeating the Iraqi army.
Their incompetence does not negate the fact that the coalition forces were overwhelmingly competent.

Even if that wasn't the case, my point still stands that Animalnoodles comparing it to people with muskets fighting unarmed people without them was not appropriate.
 
I mean, we devastated every force we have ever fought with.
The NVA didn't stand a chance, thr Iraqis, the Chinese were only able to make gains because we were running low on ammo in Korea
 
Their incompetence does not negate the fact that the coalition forces were overwhelmingly competent.

Even if that wasn't the case, my point still stands that Animalnoodles comparing it to people with muskets fighting unarmed people without them was not appropriate.
True, but @AnimalNoodles wasn't exactly wrong in that victory over Iraq isn't indicative of how a war against a more competent opponent would have gone.

In fact, a defending force is incredibly difficult to overcome if it is competent, even in cases of significant material imbalance. And this is if attacker is competent himself. If not, then it becomes downright impossible.

Thing is, warfare between two roughly equal enemies are rare for precisely this reason. Generally, war only happens when one side expects to win quickly... meaning a balanced war is always a result of miscalculation. Which can then create a false impression of how likely a war is to be an overmatch when such overwhelming advantage is not necessarily present.

EDIT:
I mean, we devastated every force we have ever fought with.
The NVA didn't stand a chance, thr Iraqis, the Chinese were only able to make gains because we were running low on ammo in Korea
OK, first, "ever fought with" does not start with World War 2. If you really include that "ever" then Canadians (with some British help) stalemated US in the war of 1812.

Korean war was a stalemate.

US eventually lost in Vietnam.

War is a very complex matter, meaning that just because you have firepower advantage doesn't mean that you are certain to win. Both US and Russian leadership tends to forget that.
 
True, but @AnimalNoodles wasn't exactly wrong in that victory over Iraq isn't indicative of how a war against a more competent opponent would have gone.

In fact, a defending force is incredibly difficult to overcome if it is competent, even in cases of significant material imbalance. And this is if attacker is competent himself. If not, then it becomes downright impossible.

Thing is, warfare between two roughly equal enemies are rare for precisely this reason. Generally, war only happens when one side expects to win quickly... meaning a balanced war is always a result of miscalculation. Which can then create a false impression of how likely a war is to be an overmatch when such overwhelming advantage is not necessarily present.

EDIT:

OK, first, "ever fought with" does not start with World War 2. If you really include that "ever" then Canadians (with some British help) stalemated US in the war of 1812.

Korean war was a stalemate.

US eventually lost in Vietnam.

War is a very complex matter, meaning that just because you have firepower advantage doesn't mean that you are certain to win. Both US and Russian leadership tends to forget that.
Militarily.
Don't mess up that with everywhere aspect.
We have beaten, militarily since we became a power, every nation we faced.
The military winning battles did not win us some of the wars, but they showed that if we wanted to we could have.

Korea was a stalemate after we were mowing down Chinese 100 to 1 against americans.
We were defeating the Vietnamese easily. I mean fuckin he'll the tet offensive was stpped even though it was a surprise.
 
Militarily.
Don't mess up that with everywhere aspect.
We have beaten, militarily since we became a power, every nation we faced.
The military winning battles did not win us some of the wars, but they showed that if we wanted to we could have.

Korea was a stalemate after we were mowing down Chinese 100 to 1 against americans.
We were defeating the Vietnamese easily. I mean fuckin he'll the tet offensive was stopped even though it was a surprise.
Sort of true. I mean, you did win your War of Independence despite ongoing world-wide factors (such as the Empire being, well, fucking stupid and not realizing that the American theatre wasn't like fighting in Europe, the drastic reduction of troops after defeating French colonial interests in North America, et cetera), but 1812 disagrees.

You didn't "defeat" Britain/Canada militarily there -- I mean, you burnt down Canada's capital, so with vastly inferior numbers of troops, the US was counter-invaded; the numerically superior American army actually scattered in panic or took casualties, the then-fledgling American Navy was sunk/locked in harbours, and the Imperial-Canadians burned the original White House to the ground while leaving the rest of the city relatively intact (which was, amusingly, a propaganda blow to show how savage Americans were).

The end of the War was pretty much a return to the status quo, but militarily? The at-that-time US was pretty much humiliated, despite the high they had from winning the War of Independence. It also ended any American ambitions to try to pull the imperialism card to the north.

But that's pretty much ancient history now.

The main issue is that the US military approach almost everything with a "sledgehammer to ant" approach e.g. overwhelming firepower. While this wins direct military conflicts, that doesn't always win wars, which is what matters. A sledgehammer is not always the best tool for the job.

The success rate for the US winning wars is, eh, spotty.
 
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Sort of true. I mean, you did win your War of Independence despite ongoing world-wide factors (such as the Empire being, well, fucking stupid and not realizing that the American theatre wasn't like fighting in Europe, the drastic reduction of troops after defeating French colonial interests in North America, et cetera), but 1812 disagrees.

You didn't "defeat" Britain/Canada militarily there -- I mean, you burnt down Canada's capital, so with vastly inferior numbers of troops, the US was counter-invaded; the numerically superior American army actually scattered in panic or took casualties, the then-fledgling American Navy was sunk/locked in harbours, and the Imperial-Canadians burned the original White House to the ground while leaving the rest of the city relatively intact (which was, amusingly, a propaganda blow to show how savage Americans were).

The end of the War was pretty much a return to the status quo, but militarily? The at-that-time US was pretty much humiliated, despite the high they had from winning the War of Independence. It also ended any American ambitions to try to pull the imperialism card to the north.

But that's pretty much ancient history now.

The main issue is that the US military approach almost everything with a "sledgehammer to ant" approach e.g. overwhelming firepower. While this wins direct military conflicts, that doesn't always win wars, which is what matters. A sledgehammer is not always the best tool for the job.

The success rate for the US winning wars is, eh, spotty.
Militarily.
And after becoming a power I was referring to ww2.
You also failed to take New Orleans and we gained that and a whole bunch of land from the French.
So I take that as a win.
Yall gained nothing out of it but the fact you burned the white house down.

The military winning the battles is what I was referencing. Compared to everyone else, we have a pretty clean track record since we became rhe sole hegemon after ww2.
Yeah, no; that's goddamn stupid.

You can win battle after battle but history has shown us time again and again that doesn't always win the wars those battles are part of.
I am not confounding the two.
Fucking hell.

I am making it clear that the US military wins the battles.
Our civilian government loses the wars.

But no one ever fucking listened to me and just suck's off the fact that we "lost" two wars, when the military is not the reason we lost.
 
Militarily.
Don't mess up that with everywhere aspect.
We have beaten, militarily since we became a power, every nation we faced.
The military winning battles did not win us some of the wars, but they showed that if we wanted to we could have.

Korea was a stalemate after we were mowing down Chinese 100 to 1 against americans.
We were defeating the Vietnamese easily. I mean fuckin he'll the tet offensive was stpped even though it was a surprise.
No you haven't.

US lost the War of 1812.
Korean war was a stalemate despite it being basically entirety of the UN against China and USSR (first NV pushed SV to the sea, then UN pushed NV to Chinese border, then China pushed UN to the tip of peninsula, then UN pushed China back to today's border).
Vietnamese War was a loss, simply because it was not just a military-only affair. But even militarily, it was not easy going for the US.

And no, you cannot "win just because you want to". You seem to believe that to win a war, it is enough to defeat enemy army. That is simply wrong.

EDIT:
And yes, US actually lost battles in the Vietnam War:

EDIT:
We're not going to start arguing about the War of 1812, are we???

Why not?
 
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No you haven't.

US lost the War of 1812.
Korean war was a stalemate despite it being basically entirety of the UN against China and USSR (first NV pushed SV to the sea, then UN pushed NV to Chinese border, then China pushed UN to the tip of peninsula, then UN pushed China back to today's border).
Vietnamese War was a loss, simply because it was not just a military-only affair. But even militarily, it was not easy going for the US.

And no, you cannot "win just because you want to". You seem to believe that to win a war, it is enough to defeat enemy army. That is simply wrong.
We didn't lose the war of 1812.
It was a stalemate.
It benefitted us on the long term to allow us to be the super power we are today.
Korea was a stalemate only in the sense we didn't have enough ammo to kill the hordes of Chinese.
The withdrawal from the Choisin resvure was because we ran out of ammo. We won the air war there, we won the battles when we didn't have suicide charges of enemies.
We still held them back and the Borth Koreans have not even thought about fighting us again.

We won every battle in Nam, we won every battle in Iraq and A-stan.

Let's not talk about how well every other country in the world who invaded A-stan faired, or the fact that the US military has been the leading power and trainer of war winning countries.

Nope just focus ok the politicians that lose the wars
 
We didn't lose the war of 1812.
It was a stalemate.
It benefitted us on the long term to allow us to be the super power we are today.
Korea was a stalemate only in the sense we didn't have enough ammo to kill the hordes of Chinese.
The withdrawal from the Choisin resvure was because we ran out of ammo. We won the air war there, we won the battles when we didn't have suicide charges of enemies.
We still held them back and the Borth Koreans have not even thought about fighting us again.

We won every battle in Nam, we won every battle in Iraq and A-stan.

Let's not talk about how well every other country in the world who invaded A-stan faired, or the fact that the US military has been the leading power and trainer of war winning countries.

Nope just focus ok the politicians that lose the wars

Wars are won or lost by achieving strategic objectives. Canadians achieved theirs, US did not achieve their own. Ergo, US loss.

Korea was a stalemate in every single sense, doesn't matter why. Also, "Chinese human waves" is just a propaganda myth. Chinese tactics had far more in common with infiltration tactics than anything else. They didn't just throw waves of troops against US positions - they weren't stupid, they knew well that would not have worked. And considering that Chinese army of the time was predominantly an infantry army - hell, North Korean army was far more mechanized than the Chinese - their success is actually rather more impressive than anything UN achieved.

North Koreans never thought about invading South again because Chinese aren't interested in a major war... why would they be? US are among China's largest trading partners today. And today, North Korea wouldn't be able to win a war against Vatican City...

No, US lost dozens upon dozens of battles in Vietnam. They also lost battles in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 
We didn't lose the war of 1812.
It was a stalemate.
It benefitted us on the long term to allow us to be the super power we are today.
Korea was a stalemate only in the sense we didn't have enough ammo to kill the hordes of Chinese.
The withdrawal from the Choisin resvure was because we ran out of ammo. We won the air war there, we won the battles when we didn't have suicide charges of enemies.
We still held them back and the Borth Koreans have not even thought about fighting us again.

We won every battle in Nam, we won every battle in Iraq and A-stan.

Let's not talk about how well every other country in the world who invaded A-stan faired, or the fact that the US military has been the leading power and trainer of war winning countries.

Nope just focus ok the politicians that lose the wars
Why not? After all, you lose the wars because of them, even winning every single (not) battle.
What is really important is winning the war, not the battles. You fail to understand that.
 
No you haven't.

US lost the War of 1812.
Korean war was a stalemate despite it being basically entirety of the UN against China and USSR (first NV pushed SV to the sea, then UN pushed NV to Chinese border, then China pushed UN to the tip of peninsula, then UN pushed China back to today's border).
Vietnamese War was a loss, simply because it was not just a military-only affair. But even militarily, it was not easy going for the US.

And no, you cannot "win just because you want to". You seem to believe that to win a war, it is enough to defeat enemy army. That is simply wrong.

EDIT:
And yes, US actually lost battles in the Vietnam War:

Just for the record, you're quoting Carlton Meyer....this fellow?




Same guy who rails about conspiracy theories and "The evil American warmongers", and claims with the recent conflict in Ukraine "The tank is dead"....yeah, they've been saying that or trying to say that since the 1930s.


Not saying it completely invalidates your argument, but...
 

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