Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Abhorsen]

Did they? Those who said it was a national interest were bullshitting everyone else, if they even bothered with that, because at least on the mainstream D leaning side, it looked as i said:

U.S. withdrawal puts freedoms for Afghan women in peril

The Taliban is poised to extend its reach across the country, reversing the gains of women in Afghanistan.

www.cbsnews.com

This was the lie sold to the people. The reason it continued was simply more money for MIC. It's why R's were in favor of it as well.

That is by definition an extremist, black or white position. Both these options should be ideally expelled from the foreign policy debate with extreme prejudice, they truly are worth each other. Grifters on one side, idiots on the other. If there is no middle ground, the bloody job of patriotic citizens is to become that.

There never will be a middle ground, that's what you fail to see. The government will never be good, it will either be mostly irrelevant or relevant and controlled by a special interest. This applies to foreign policy as much as domestic policy. The illusion that there is a middle ground, that this time government will work for the good of the people, is the lie sold to you. A lie you are buying.

 

[Bacle]

This was the lie sold to the people. The reason it continued was simply more money for MIC. It's why R's were in favor of it as well.

R's liked having Bagram and it's runway an hour from the Russian and CCP interiors.

There never will be a middle ground, that's what you fail to see. The government will never be good, it will either be mostly irrelevant or relevant and controlled by a special interest. This applies to foreign policy as much as domestic policy. The illusion that there is a middle ground, that this time government will work for the good of the people, is the lie sold to you. A lie you are buying.

Yes, yes, the Mises Caucus bullshit is strong with you, we know.

And frankly, helping Ukraine is helping the American people, because if Russia is not stopped there they will attempt something against NATO, and then Article 5 fun times mean what Russia is doing very much become a problem of the US populace regardless of politics.

Deal with the reality of imperfect governance is the best you will ever get, because humans are flawed creatures, and no amount of NAP worship will change that.

The idea of a functional society without government is a farce that no one but AnCaps believe.

 

[Zachowon]

This is helping our economy.
Do you know how many orders of our equipment people are wanting?
Look at fucking what Taiwan wants now

 

[Abhorsen]

This is helping our economy.
Do you know how many orders of our equipment people are wanting?
Look at fucking what Taiwan wants now

Thanks for being honest about American Foreign policy! We rob US citizens to pay the MIC to supply wars.

 

[Marduk]

This was the lie sold to the people. The reason it continued was simply more money for MIC. It's why R's were in favor of it as well.

And i for one didn't buy it. Some were for it because they bought the lie, some before they bought into the stocks, some were against it because they knew what happened, others because they hold ridiculous ideals and are always against western power's operations in the world on principle.

There never will be a middle ground, that's what you fail to see. The government will never be good, it will either be mostly irrelevant or relevant and controlled by a special interest. This applies to foreign policy as much as domestic policy. The illusion that there is a middle ground, that this time government will work for the good of the people, is the lie sold to you. A lie you are buying.

Unlike socialistic intrusions of government in domestic policy that are completely optional, foreign policy is a necessary job of even a minimal government.
I do not expect high minded ideals in it, only some degree of cold rationality. "Peaceful people's" ideals do not have a place in that for they never stood even close to rationality.

Thanks for being honest about American Foreign policy! We rob US citizens to pay the MIC to supply wars.

Wars happened and were supplied before USA existed, and so they will after it ceases to exist.
But that's not a reason to let very existence of one lobby paralyze your foreign policy.

 

[Tiamat]

Not to derail but we really need an urban dictionary of sorts for all these silly names like MIC, ancap, etc that keep getting thrown around on this forum. Anyone from the “real world” peeking in here absolutely has no idea what the hell you’re all talking about.

 

[Abhorsen]

Unlike socialistic intrusions of government in domestic policy that are completely optional, foreign policy is a necessary job of even a minimal government.
I do not expect high minded ideals in it, only some degree of cold rationality. "Peaceful people's" ideals do not have a place in that for they never stood even close to rationality.

There will never be cold rationality. That's what I'm saying. There will either be a dictator, looking out for himself, an isolationist viewpoint that ignores the outside other than trade, or a profiteering outlook looking to benefit the oligarchs who are in the Military Industrial Complex. Those are your options. Now choose.

And i for one didn't buy it. Some were for it because they bought the lie, some before they bought into the stocks, some were against it because they knew what happened, others because they hold ridiculous ideals and are always against western power's operations in the world on principle.

Thanks for admitting no one was for it because it was in America's best interest though. Now note that's the case for nearly every war, and we are getting somewhere.

Not to derail but we really need an urban dictionary of sorts for all these silly names like MIC, ancap, etc that keep getting thrown around on this forum. Anyone from the “real world” peeking in here absolutely has no idea what the hell you’re all talking about.

MIC is Military Industrial Complex, and AnCap is Anarcho Capitalist.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

If Ukraine doesn't want peace, that's Ukraine's business. I don't see why the US should back one side or another here.

I was in a similar frame of mind until I heard the common Russian call to eradicate any Ukrainian that resisted to the smallest child.

 

[Marduk]

There will never be cold rationality. That's what I'm saying. There will either be a dictator, looking out for himself, an isolationist viewpoint that ignores the outside other than trade, or a profiteering outlook looking to benefit the oligarchs who are in the Military Industrial Complex. Those are your options. Now choose.

The Cold War shows otherwise. Considering where the mythical MIC and the "peaceful people" stood then, i would rather choose MIC.

Thanks for admitting no one was for it because it was in America's best interest though. Now note that's the case for nearly every war, and we are getting somewhere.

It's ridiculous. It's like saying that some used car salesmen are cheats that will give you a terrible deal, so you should never buy used cars, period.
This war, well, obviously has some much better arguments for it than the continued stay in AF or other sandbox adventures.
Being mirrorverse MIC lobby is not a sane solution to this problem, just a different flavor of shitty solution.

 

[Bacle]

I was in a similar frame of mind until I heard the common Russian call to eradicate any Ukrainian that resisted to the smallest child.

Little things like open calls for complete genocide of ethnic ground, down to the last citizen, from state media and officials doesn't matter to @Abhorsen, even when they are willing to admit they exist.

This is also why I no longer compare AnCaps to Ferengi; even Ferengi understand that warfare and military spending are not something that can ever go away, or should ever go away. Plus, you cannot sell to people you genocide/allow to be genocided.

 

[Abhorsen]

The Cold War shows otherwise. Considering where the mythical MIC and the "peaceful people" stood then, i would rather choose MIC.

No, it was an aligning of the MIC with National interests, that's all.

It's ridiculous. It's like saying that some used car salesmen are cheats that will give you a terrible deal, so you should never buy used cars, period.
This war, well, obviously has some much better arguments for it than the continued stay in AF or other sandbox adventures.
Being mirrorverse MIC lobby is not a sane solution to this problem, just a different flavor of shitty solution.

Because your only option is to buy from the shady used car salesman! The reason you can get a good car is because you can choose who you buy from.

Little things like open calls for complete genocide of ethnic ground, down to the last citizen, from state media and officials doesn't matter to @Abhorsen, even when they are willing to admit they exist.

This is also why I no longer compare AnCaps to Ferengi; even Ferengi understand that warfare and military spending are not something that can ever go away, or should ever go away.

There's a difference between having a military, and spending endless money on someone else's military.

I was in a similar frame of mind until I heard the common Russian call to eradicate any Ukrainian that resisted to the smallest child.

Yes, Russia is wrong to invade. But the idea that this started when Russia invaded is just ignorant. The US was an equal partner in causing this war.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Yes, Russia is wrong to invade. But the idea that this started when Russia invaded is just ignorant. The US was an equal partner in causing this war.

To be completely blunt, it doesn't matter who started it.

 

[Abhorsen]

To be completely blunt, it doesn't matter who started it.

It absolutely does. We caused this problem. We actively support genocides in Yemen and in other places. I've absolutely no faith here that us intervening won't lead to us committing or causing even more horrors. Now do I want Ukraine to win? Yes. Can we ethically support them without setting the stage for more horrors? No.

 

[Tiamat]

It absolutely does. We caused this problem. We actively support genocides in Yemen and in other places. I've absolutely no faith here that us intervening won't lead to us committing or causing even more horrors. Now do I want Ukraine to win? Yes. Can we ethically support them without setting the stage for more horrors? No.

So everything revolves around the US now??? How did we cause the problem? Do world leaders and populations make all their decisions based on what the US thinks? Sorry but I think most would agree that’s a bit preposterous.

 

[Bacle]

No, it was an aligning of the MIC with National interests, that's all.

Turns out most nations military's and national interests align, throughout most of history.

'Ideals are peaceful, history is violent.'

Because your only option is to buy from the shady used car salesman! The reason you can get a good car is because you can choose who you buy from.

Global supply chains for munitions and weapons are not even close to as easy to procure as a 'good car'.

There's a difference between having a military, and spending endless money on someone else's military.

Fiat currency is endless, though, and the only thing that matters is the Fed interest rates/IRS/FTC activities/rules on banks and financial instruments.

Military hardware that is actually going to be used for it's intended purpose, and for a good cause none-the-less, is one of the better ways to use that endless fiat currency.

The Fed Reserve don't care what AnCap's think, money printer go brrrr, and this time the money is actually helping deal with a long term threat we've tried to kicked the can on for far too long.

The era of 'kick-the-can-down-the-road' is over, everybody's playing for keeps now, get used to it.

Yes, Russia is wrong to invade. But the idea that this started when Russia invaded is just ignorant. The US was an equal partner in causing this war.

I watched how things happened in 2014, and since.

It was not the US who shot down that airliner, that was 'rebels/little green men' in the Donbas being reckless.

It was not the US or Ukraine who kept violating every ceasefire and every attempt at negotiation, or who rolled their on tanks into the Donbas when the Ukrainians had just about had the rebels beat, then began shelling across the border while Ukraine was told it could not strike back at those units inside Russia.

It was not the US who a year ago rolled yet more tanks, and helo's full of VDV, across the Belarusian and Russian borders in an attempt to unseat the government in Kyiv, kill Zelensky, and install a puppet gov in a few days, while planning for a genocidal level campaign against the people of Ukraine in order to suppress 'resistance'.

The 'both same' shit with regards to Ukraine needs to stop, it is disingenuous at best with all that is known at this point.

 

[Abhorsen]

So everything revolves around the US now??? How did we cause the problem? Do world leaders and populations make all their decisions based on what the US thinks? Sorry but I think most would agree that’s a bit preposterous.

Not just us, but to pretend we had nothing to do with it is ludicrious. We helped the coup with the Euromaidan protests.

The 'both same' shit with regards to Ukraine needs to stop, it is disingenuous at best with all that is known at this point.

Yeah, the US is better at regime change: it's us who helped overthrow the government. Our little green men are just a ton better at not being noticed.

 

[Zachowon]

Thanks for being honest about American Foreign policy! We rob US citizens to pay the MIC to supply wars.

Question.
Where does the money the MIC makes go?
Who supplies the MIC?
Hmm.
Sounds like a lot of business for people.
More jobs as we increase production.

You an Ancap that doesn't like war.
You are a horrible Ancap. Who ever can sell the most and make the most out of it.
He'll, invest in MIC stocks.
Make your own money.
Lots of jobs for those companies as well.
People gotta build it.

 

[Bacle]

Not just us, but to pretend we had nothing to do with it is ludicrious. We helped the coup with the Euromaidan protests.

Yeah, the US is better at regime change: it's us who helped overthrow the government. Our little green men are just a ton better at not being noticed.

You completely and utterly discount any organic, native unhappiness with Russian' meddling in Ukraine's desire to go into the EU, instead of stay with Moscow, as just western 'little green men'.

Western intel services played some role, however Ukrainians have proved they do have a nationalistic feeling of their own, and 2014 was when it first became noticeable in a way that directly countered Russian control.

 

[Marduk]

No, it was an aligning of the MIC with National interests, that's all.

So it can happen, and in a big way.

Because your only option is to buy from the shady used car salesman! The reason you can get a good car is because you can choose who you buy from.

Yet another reason why there is a need for more options, rather than resigning to picking one of the crappy ones.

Yes, Russia is wrong to invade. But the idea that this started when Russia invaded is just ignorant. The US was an equal partner in causing this war.

Sorry, but this is Russian narrative that has a very loose relationship with reality. But this is the sort of crap you get from listening to "peaceful people".

 

[Zachowon]

The US has no part in starting this conflict.
Unless you take we were selling arms but they were buying them so more money for us