If crew are well trained,maybe gamechanger.
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)
- Thread starter ParadiseLost
- Start date
My prediction is it'll really depend on how well modern NATO tanks are at being the spearhead that just smashes through the Russian lines and keeps going like it's no big deal... or if they get quickly disabled or blocked by environment and/or enemy actions and thus are basically just more survivable and recoverable than the tanks Ukraine is already using.
Update on the Battle for Bakhmut.
As you can see the Russian Forces have finally taken the porch and continue to hold the bedroom. It's only a matter of time before they execute a pincer move, catching the UkroNazis in a double envelopment in the Living Room, they'll be able to directly interdict water supplies from the toilet and once they flush out the Ukies there, its an open road all the way to Kramatorsk.
As you can see the Russian Forces have finally taken the porch and continue to hold the bedroom. It's only a matter of time before they execute a pincer move, catching the UkroNazis in a double envelopment in the Living Room, they'll be able to directly interdict water supplies from the toilet and once they flush out the Ukies there, its an open road all the way to Kramatorsk.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
A relatively small number of Abrams are probably not a game changer on their own, but as the quality of Ukrainian hardware improves even as the quality of Russian hardware degrades, the difference becomes dramatic much more quickly than if only one of those things happened. The turnover from Warsaw Pact equipment to NATO equipment is just a highly visible, highly symbolic barometer.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
...A thousand times worse for the Ukrainians, maybe, but honestly, most of the rest of the world would benefit.
If the Chinese want to send their military across half of Asia to fight in unfamiliar terrain against battle-hardened veterans with superior equipment and training, well...
The only major restraint on how much war material the US is handing over to Ukraine, is the need to be ready to fight China. Make it clear that supporting the Ukrainians is a twofer, and you can wear out the bear and the dragon?
F-16s would enter Ukrainian service in months, the Abrams would start arriving by the hundred instead of dozens, and we'd probably ramp up to full wartime production on all munitions.
The most likely result would be that the PLA proves just as much a paper tiger as the Russian military. You'd probably also see more Taiwanese volunteers, looking to gain direct intel on how the PLA would fight, and kill a few commies while they can.
I honestly don't see it changing the outcome of the war in Russia's favor. If anything, Europe would also be doubling down on how much support they send, and this just ends badly for the Chinese.
Depend on what they woud send.If they copy USA and send old stuff and ammo which would be replaced anyway,that notching really change.
I made it to 'dangerous border dispute' and couldn't go further, because that shows this fucker is completely disconnected to the realities on the ground and is just grandstanding for his own ego. This is a full scale invasion of a country in an attempt to take all of it, with the opening stages meant to kill the Ukrainian gov and force a surrender.
This war could end tomorrow if Putin withdrew his troops, and returned the thousands, tens of thousands of kids he had kidnapped from Ukraine.
But I don't expect anyone who advertises themselves as part of the Mises Caucus to have any real clue about foreign affairs.
Anyone who still believes the "Russia is doing everything it is doing due to genuine fear of the West" at this point is being ignorant, delusional or malicious.
If you look at any moves or comments from Russian leadership not specifically aimed at a western peacenik or "business as usual please" audience, the sentiments presented there will be the very opposite of fear.
"Sevastopol, Russia's only warm water port with access to Black Sea" - factually and provably wrong.
Port of Novorossiysk - Wikipedia
But why do i mention this one, as opposed to, say, Sochi, Rostov on Don or Yeysk?
Because it's Russia's secondary naval base expanded "just in case" of Crimea problems.
Russia Relocates Submarine Fleet From Crimea Naval Base Amid Ukraine’s Counteroffensive
The changing tide of the Ukraine War appear to have led the Russian Navy to ‘regroup’ its forces in the Black Sea. Early during the invasion they loitered boldly close to Odessa. Now the Black Sea Fleet barely sails out of sight of Crimea for fear of Harpoon missiles. Its submarines too have...
www.globaldefensecorp.com
Long story short, ignorance (which is the least bad option here) is not something that deserves praise.
So.....you think this is simply a border dispute and that if the US and the west called for Peace Ukraine would listen?
We called for it since the start and Ukraine said no.
What makes it any diffrent now? Since Ukraine is doing better then Russia.
RUSSIA IS USING TANKS FROM THE FUCKING 50s. Or at least sending them to Ukraine
Better question is why would Ukraine would listen to people who want them to give up land and suborn themselves to Moscow's wishes again?
I don't care what Ukraine or Russia is doing. They aren't my Country. I care what the US is doing. And the US shouldn't be promoting war.
All I read are various excuses about why the US should promote this war. How this war is somehow different than another. It isn't. It's just the same: US MIC want war to fuel their profits.
If Ukraine doesn't want peace, that's Ukraine's business. I don't see why the US should back one side or another here.
The war is happening whatever USA does, the world doesn't revolve about what USA thinks, if it did, there would have been no war, Biden admin sure would prefer less events to handle and distract from green grifts and virtue signalling.
USA absolutely should promote wars that are in its interests, peacenik ideals being disregarded deservedly. In this case, it's completely superfluous though.
The world doesn't revolve around US MIC either.
Budapest Memorandum, NATO borders, geopolitics.
No, the US shouldn't promote wars 'in it's interest'. This is the sorta thinking that led us to take 20 years to replace the Taliban with the Taliban.
US foreign policy does though, and it shouldn't.
No, the opposite thinking did - that USA should promote wars... for muh women's rights in Afghanistan. There was no interest, at least no national interest involved.
It shouldn't revolve around imaginations of isolationists and peaceniks either.
Yes there was. There was the interests of the MIC, which made bank off the war. And that is a national interest in the opinion of those who make the decisions. In fact, it's the most important one.
You don't get the option of a good government though. This magical fairy tale told of a government capable of determining when a war is in it's own interest only rarely exists, and even then only when blatantly obvious or by blind luck after countless failures. US foreign policy is either owned by peaceful people, or war profiteers, there is no realistic middle ground.
Yes, we know you and the Mises Caucus want to have the US stick our heads in the sand and pretend geopolitics doesn't matter.
Which is precisely why the Mises Caucus can be safely disregarded when it comes to foreign policy.
Did they? Those who said it was a national interest were bullshitting everyone else, if they even bothered with that, because at least on the mainstream D leaning side, it looked as i said:
U.S. withdrawal puts freedoms for Afghan women in peril
The Taliban is poised to extend its reach across the country, reversing the gains of women in Afghanistan.
www.cbsnews.com
That is by definition an extremist, black or white position. Both these options should be ideally expelled from the foreign policy debate with extreme prejudice, they truly are worth each other. Grifters on one side, idiots on the other. If there is no middle ground, the bloody job of patriotic citizens is to become that.