Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[WolfBear]

The details of Buck v. Bell case are pretty much a fractal of infuriating.

1. The entire reason Carrie Buck was institutionalized was not that she was actually "feeble-minded", but that she had been raped by her foster parents' nephew and they wanted to make sure she was silenced. Note that the only "evidence" offered for her feeble-mindedness was her supposed "promiscuity" and "incorrigibleness", i.e., her being raped.

2. Justice Holmes' infamous comment about "three generations of imbeciles are enough" was based on outright perjury; the prosecution falsely claimed that Buck's mother and daughter were also feeble minded. There is no evidence that her mother was actually unintelligent; she had been institutionalized, true, but this was for alleged "immorality, prostitution, and syphilis". There is positive evidence that her daughter Vivian was in fact of perfectly normal, even above average intelligence; she had even made the honor roll, and only one of her grades was ever below "C" in an era where C was considered a solid pass grade. SCOTUS, however, accepted without evidence the prosecution's allegations because the defense did not contest them.

3. And why didn't the defense contest them? Because the entire lawsuit was literally a staged production by the superintendent of the institution Buck had been placed at, who was militantly pro-eugenics and wanted to concoct a test case that would legally justify it; he arranged for two co-conspirators, both of which were close friends of his and *also* militant eugenicists, to represent the institute as plaintiff and Buck as defense. In other words, her defense was actively conspiring against her in a stage-managed show trial.

4. The final piece of evidence that Carrie Buck was in no way feeble-minded? Well, once the trial was over and she'd been forcibly sterilized, the conspirators had no further use for her and she'd been even more thoroughly discredited than her foster parents and their rapist nephew could ever have imagined. . . so she was released from the institute, and proceeded to demonstrate that she was and always had been perfectly capable of being a completely normal member of society.

5. Unlike other "now widely considered horrible" Supreme Court precedents, Buck v. Bell was never overturned and remains the law of the land to this day. In fact, the only even partially countervailing precedent was a later SCOTUS case where the court ruled that states could not impose involuntary sterilization as a criminal penalty for blue-collar crimes unless they also imposed on comparable white-collar crimes. The shift away from eugenics has been driven entirely by fading popularity, and every state retains full authority and Constitutional approval to re-implement mandatory eugenics programs whenever it wants.

Thanks for this information. That case and its facts were just awful. Mandatory eugenics is obviously evil, but do you consider it a bad thing for a country's government to, say, pay its STEM university graduates and STEM workers to have children (or to have more children, if they already have children)?

 

[Aldarion]

All you are doing here, is demonstrating your ignorance.

Yeah, ignorance of mythology. I'm not exactly devastated here.

Yes, the modern pseudo-representative democratic 'norm' in the west has problems. It's an imperfect system from the start, and it has been pretty seriously corrupted as atheists have successfully pushed Christianity further and further out, making for increasingly godless and corrupt organs of state.

That does not change the fact that every other system has serious problems as well, and that pretty much all of them were worse.

My best guess is that you are so absorbed in the very real problems of the present, that you've blinded yourself to the problems of the past.

Every single system has problems. I am not ignoring that. But problems of the past tend to be overstated - or rather, English-speaking world looks at all the crazy/stupid English monarchs and assumes that monarchy is inherently bad. I mean, if you look at the language used with depressing regularity nowadays, democracy is considered a value by and unto itself, rather than being a tool of reaching an actual value (which would be freedom).

I think it has to do with American media dominance, to be honest. United States were pretty much established in a war for independence, that is often presented as (and maybe even was presented at the time) as a war against monarchy. You know Star Wars? The Original Trilogy is literally American Revolution in Space. Good pro-republic rebels against an evil monarchy. And this has coloured the entirety of US political culture, which sees monarchy as an ultimate evil.

Second reason is belief into progress. Which is bullshit, but people like to believe that we are genuinely smarter today than we used to be, rather than simply lying on a bed of gradually accumulated knowledge. I don't know why, maybe makes them feel better about themselves? But in short, progressivism has thoroughly infiltrated Western psyche, and this infiltration has led to belief that democracy is somehow more modern than monarchy and thus inherently superior.

But real monarchies in the past were far more functional than people today assume. Austria-Hungary, for all its flaws, did more for Croatia than any regime since. And problems with any elective system of government is fundamental to human psyche - we are simply bad at detecting lies and liars. Representative democracy is basically a marketing sales campaign turned into a political system, with main currency being bullshit. And it is far from the only problem inherent to the system of modern "representative democracy" (which should actually be a republic, but we have long since shot to hell everything that made republic a republic).

As a test of this, can you list any upsides to Democratic Republics? I'm not even asking you to explain why you think the downsides outweigh the upsides, I'm asking you if you can list any upsides at all.

1. Fact that people believe they have political impact can lead them to being more motivated in war and other things. But that can be just as true for an actual republic, or even a monarchy.
2. Anyone doing something unhealthy needs to bribe many more people (on the flip side, they may be easier to bribe so...).

There are a few more I listed below, but these upsides I wanted to list are specific to republics, possibly even only specific to republics in relation to an absolute monarchy (as opposed to something like a Holy Roman Empire), and a democracy (or a "democratic republic", whatever that is) basically screws these upsides over seven ways to Hell.

As for what they are:
3. Balance of power. Reason why absolute monarchies often led to revolutions is that they had no inherent balance of power the way a feudal (or a federal) monarchy did: everything is centered in the government (king, high nobility and governmental bureocracy) and thus system does not have a self-corrective capability. A proper republic (which nowadays is about as extinct as the federal or feudal monarchy) is a fusion of elements of three systems (monarchy, aristocracy, democracy), and thus avoids the revolutions.
4. Self-correction. If properly set up, a republic can promote debate. With an absolute monarchy specifically, it is entirely up to the monarch whether he will listen to advice (which is why I don't like absolute monarchy). A republican government basically has a setup of opposed interest groups, which then promoted debate, or at least is supposed to.
5. One that is specific to comparison specifically to absolute monarchy but works for either a republic or a democracy. With an absolute monarchy, one crazy or incompetent monarch can screw up everything - especially if monarchy is basically a legalized military dictatorship. With a republic or a democracy, it is more likely you will get a slow decline rather than a sudden catastrophe.

Whom are you getting?

Indians and Nepalis are being imported to "work" (conditions are actually closer to slavery), and you also have fat SJW liberal females adopting children from the Subsaharan Africa.

 

[WolfBear]

Indians and Nepalis are being imported to "work" (conditions are actually closer to slavery), and you also have fat SJW liberal females adopting children from the Subsaharan Africa.

Well, the latter Croatia could probably do without, but I'd enjoy me some Indians and Nepalis!

 

[WolfBear]

Russia must stop being an empire if it wishes to prosper as a nation

Post-Soviet Russia never shed the imperial identity inherited from the Soviet and Czarist past but Putin's disastrous invasion of Ukraine could now set the stage for the emergence of a post-imperial Russian identity.

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[Aldarion]

Well, the latter Croatia could probably do without, but I'd enjoy me some Indians and Nepalis!

Yeah, they are good people, but I still dislike it as a matter of principle.

EDIT: I mean, whole "diversity is strength" and other multikulti memes are nothing but an excuses to legalize modern slavery. I don't know if I have mentioned the conditions poor sods work in? And that is just the start of the problems here.

 

[History Learner]

I've been very busy lately, so didn't have the chance to comment on it when it came out, but the U.S. revealed current production levels on shells and expansion plans out to 2025. I'd been hammering on this for awhile, but the public revelation I was correct was still nice; 14,000 a month means 168,000 shells produced this year. For context on what was sent to Ukraine:

The push comes as the U.S. has supplied Ukraine with more than 1 million artillery rounds, and as Pentagon officials see the war in Ukraine continuing indefinitely, further draining stocks for the U.S. and allies. Bush said it’s unclear what the Ukrainian military’s mid- and long-term needs will be, and the U.S. Army wants to be ready.​

​

“We are in a position to support Ukraine, but it’s more the mid and long term,” Bush said. “By creating this capacity ... if this war goes three or four years, we’ll be in a position to just vastly outproduce the Russians all by ourselves ― and if you combine that with our allies, then we’re just dwarfing their capability. They won’t be able to keep up.”​

So, first, as a reminder the U.S. stockpile, based on procurement data stretching back to 1999, was about three million shells when the war began:



In other words, we've depleted our stockpile by a third and even the proposed 2025 expansion to 480,000 shells a year is equivalent to around 80 days of AFU consumption. This has consequences:





And was foreseeable:

 

[History Learner]

“We are in a position to support Ukraine, but it’s more the mid and long term,” Bush said. “By creating this capacity ... if this war goes three or four years, we’ll be in a position to just vastly outproduce the Russians all by ourselves ― and if you combine that with our allies, then we’re just dwarfing their capability. They won’t be able to keep up.”​

I know at least one of you is going to be tempted to jump on that, so allow me to make clear why this isn't going to be the case:

 

[Aldarion]

So globalism and liberalism are actually a bad thing. Who would have thought!

 

[History Learner]

So globalism and liberalism are actually a bad thing. Who would have thought!

GAO and Pentagon had been warning about it for years, it was obvious and it's one of the main reasons why I've stuck to my guns on the course of this war:







It was also not limited to us, either:

 

[WolfBear]

Yeah, they are good people, but I still dislike it as a matter of principle.

EDIT: I mean, whole "diversity is strength" and other multikulti memes are nothing but an excuses to legalize modern slavery. I don't know if I have mentioned the conditions poor sods work in? And that is just the start of the problems here.

Doesn't Croatia have decent labor protection laws? It should as an EU member, I would think.

 

[Aldarion]

Doesn't Croatia have decent labor protection laws? It should as an EU member, I would think.

Not anymore, if it ever did. And in any case, even if we did, who would enforce them? Our government cares only if you fail to pay the taxes.

 

[ATP]

I know at least one of you is going to be tempted to jump on that, so allow me to make clear why this isn't going to be the case:

Germany is soviet ally in this war.Do not be suprised,that they "could not" help Ukraine.
Of course,they could not help Ukraine,BECOUSE THEY ARE HELPING SOVIETS !

About americans problems with making ammo - if they wanted Ukraine victory,they would send 500 Abrams and 200 F.16 there.
But,they send some modern drones,semi-modern HIMARS - rest is old ammo ,old guns,old rifles,old AT missiles,old IFV.
Then,they gave them counting as if they were brand new - and that is how you get those billions $ of help.
When,in reality,most would be scrapped in few years.

But - do not worry,your idols would get Ukraine.All they need is:
1.Agree to be minor ally of USA against China
2.Since putin agreed to that and break his promise,kill him and his cronies.

Then,and only then,soviets would rule.Idiots start beliving in their own propaganda about powerpuff soviets which win WW2 - when they do that on american trucks and using american ammo.

P.S @Aldarion ,you is right about monarchy - as long as it is medieval monarchy.Absolute monarch fucked Europe and paved road to revolutions.

 

[Jormungandr]

War has tamed Ukraine’s oligarchs, creating space for democratic chan…

archived 8 Dec 2022 06:48:37 UTC

archive.ph

I never endorsed murder. Your condition does not strike me as being particular bad, FWIW:

Ankylosing spondylitis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If it makes me feel better, I myself suffer from ADHD and wish that I didn't have it. My younger sibling doesn't have it and is also much smarter than I myself am.

You know nothing.

The spinal vertebrae are literally fusing and crumbling: not only is this painful in itself, it also causes nerve pain throughout the entire body. You cannot turn at worst or struggle to at best your head to the sides. Long-term nerve compression affects fine motor-control in your hands and feet. Blurred vision/gradually worsening vision, headaches, and ocular migraines are regular occurrences.

It also affects bladder and bowel control later on, as well as causing arthritis in all your joints at an accelerated pace.

So, yeah: while not fatal, it eventually severely impacts your quality of life.

Don't bullshit us: what your advocating is exactly what the fucking Nazis wanted in regards to who is useful/not fucking up the gene pool in their eyes.

ADHD is a cakewalk in comparison.

 

[WolfBear]

You know nothing.

The spinal vertebrae are literally fusing and crumbling: not only is this painful in itself, it also causes nerve pain throughout the entire body. You cannot turn at worst or struggle to at best your head to the sides. Long-term nerve compression affects fine motor-control in your hands and feet. Blurred vision/gradually worsening vision, headaches, and ocular migraines are regular occurrences.

It also affects bladder and bowel control later on, as well as causing arthritis in all your joints at an accelerated pace.

So, yeah: while not fatal, it eventually severely impacts your quality of life.

Don't bullshit us: what your advocating is exactly what the fucking Nazis wanted in regards to who is useful/not fucking up the gene pool in their eyes.

ADHD is a cakewalk in comparison.

If parents want to choose to implant an embryo with your condition, I'm not going to stop them. Or to implant a Down's syndrome embryo, for that matter.

 

[History Learner]

Germany is soviet ally in this war.Do not be suprised,that they "could not" help Ukraine.
Of course,they could not help Ukraine,BECOUSE THEY ARE HELPING SOVIETS !

About americans problems with making ammo - if they wanted Ukraine victory,they would send 500 Abrams and 200 F.16 there.
But,they send some modern drones,semi-modern HIMARS - rest is old ammo ,old guns,old rifles,old AT missiles,old IFV.
Then,they gave them counting as if they were brand new - and that is how you get those billions $ of help.
When,in reality,most would be scrapped in few years.

But - do not worry,your idols would get Ukraine.All they need is:
1.Agree to be minor ally of USA against China
2.Since putin agreed to that and break his promise,kill him and his cronies.

Then,and only then,soviets would rule.Idiots start beliving in their own propaganda about powerpuff soviets which win WW2 - when they do that on american trucks and using american ammo.

P.S @Aldarion ,you is right about monarchy - as long as it is medieval monarchy.Absolute monarch fucked Europe and paved road to revolutions.

I don't agree with this on any accounts. That you unironically believe they are still Soviets is something I still don't get, either. It just seems really detached from reality.

 

[Aldarion]

I don't agree with this on any accounts. That you unironically believe they are still Soviets is something I still don't get, either. It just seems really detached from reality.

It is not that detached from reality - Putin has spoken favorably of the Soviet Union in the past and seems to mourn its collapse. He has even called the Soviet Union a "historical Russia":

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

Putin rues Soviet collapse as demise of 'historical Russia'

President Vladimir Putin has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union three decades ago as the demise of what he called "historical Russia" and said the economic crisis that followed was so bad he was forced to moonlight as a taxi driver.

www.reuters.com

Putin considers entire Soviet Union to be historical Russian territory

KATERYNA TYSHCHENKO – FRIDAY, 17 JUNE 2022, 20:00

www.pravda.com.ua

So yes, it does appear that modern Russia is led by the Soviet ideology and can thus be considered "Soviets". Much like the Western Europe and modern-day USA are Marxists.

 

[Captain X]

Not to mention the troops running around with Soviet flags, or the Soviet flags put up in the parts of Ukraine they occupied on government buildings and the like.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Russia’s Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov mocks transgender NATO members

Ramzan Kadyrov, leader of Russia’s republic of Chechnya mocked NATO’s transgender members, Admiral Rachel Levin and Deputy Assistant Secretary of the U.S. Department of Nuclear Energy Sam Brinton.

euroweeklynews.com

He should watch himself when in the field. They can have a drone with his name on it.

 

[History Learner]

It is not that detached from reality - Putin has spoken favorably of the Soviet Union in the past and seems to mourn its collapse. He has even called the Soviet Union a "historical Russia":

Putin: Soviet collapse a 'genuine tragedy'

In his annual state of the nation address on Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin called the collapse of the Soviet empire “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century.”

www.nbcnews.com

Putin rues Soviet collapse as demise of 'historical Russia'

President Vladimir Putin has lamented the collapse of the Soviet Union three decades ago as the demise of what he called "historical Russia" and said the economic crisis that followed was so bad he was forced to moonlight as a taxi driver.

www.reuters.com

Putin considers entire Soviet Union to be historical Russian territory

KATERYNA TYSHCHENKO – FRIDAY, 17 JUNE 2022, 20:00

www.pravda.com.ua

It is entirely detached from reality, as it requires misinterpreting statements by Putin alone as the sole evidence for the claim. Putin's definitive statement, which often gets cited only in part for obvious political reasons nowadays, was:

"Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains."​

Far from a ringing endorsement of the USSR, and helps explain what he means with other statements in following years. The collapse of the USSR was, indeed, a geopolitical disaster and humanitarian tragedy; excess mortality in the 1990s was on the order of 11 million in Russia and tens of millions passed into poverty in a Depression-level collapse of conditions that didn't start to recover until the 2000s.

So yes, it does appear that modern Russia is led by the Soviet ideology and can thus be considered "Soviets". Much like the Western Europe and modern-day USA are Marxists.

Or you can instead look at enacted policies, governmental structures and other, rational objective metrics to show its false. If statements alone are your benchmark, you might find it useful to review how Putin this year has consistently said the forces of the free market must be unleashed in response to the Western sanctions. Again, not a doctrinaire Marxist tenet, eh? Even your own articles note this:

In the address, Putin also tried to boost business confidence in the nation, reassuring skittish investors that rules governing the privatization of state property and tax collection would not be constantly shifting. Putin said tax inspectors do not have the right to “terrorize business,” and he called on the government to lower the time limit for challenging the results of past privatization deals from 10 years to three.​

Doesn't sound like five year plans to me.

Not to mention the troops running around with Soviet flags, or the Soviet flags put up in the parts of Ukraine they occupied on government buildings and the like.

They've also been putting up Imperial flags; is Tsar Nicholas and Stalin both coming back?

 

[Buba]

He should watch himself when in the field. They can have a drone with his name on it.

And here I thought that this empty space was reserved for Mother's name ...