Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Floridaman]

I suspect that the million dead Iraqis is an exaggeration and in any case, Iraq could have been in an even worse shape right now during the Arab Spring had we not ousted Saddam. And wasn't Saddam unusually brutal for a Middle Eastern dictator, such as with him using chemical weapons against the Kurds and brutally crushing the Iraqi Shi'ites and draining their mashes afterwards?

As for what I would consider a failure in Iraq, a total ISIS takeover of the country would be a pretty good example of this. And Iraq is trying to balance Iran and the US against each other rather than being a total Iranian client state. There's some resentment in Iraq against the pro-Iranian Shi'ite militias for crushing protesters during the 2019 demonstrations there.

yeah those things he did are standard, also the chemical weapons were given to him by us. So if we didn’t intervene in the beginning that wouldn’t have happened.
as for your maybe it could have been worse, I would point out that the Arab spring was another regime change backed by us and europe so again if that made it worse that is also our fault.
Finally the claim well maybe things could have been worse, so we shouldn’t class Iraq as a failure is nuts. That is like me saying Hitler and the Nazis were good for humanity because without ww2 the soviets would have invaded the world..... only with my scenario we at least get a good video game franchise.

 

[WolfBear]

yeah those things he did are standard, also the chemical weapons were given to him by us. So if we didn’t intervene in the beginning that wouldn’t have happened.
as for your maybe it could have been worse, I would point out that the Arab spring was another regime change backed by us and europe so again if that made it worse that is also our fault.
Finally the claim well maybe things could have been worse, so we shouldn’t class Iraq as a failure is nuts. That is like me saying Hitler and the Nazis were good for humanity because without ww2 the soviets would have invaded the world..... only with my scenario we at least get a good video game franchise.

So, maybe we should have allowed Iran to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime in the 1980s? Would that have been better? Except the question is whether Iraq right now would have an Islamic theocracy rather than democracy in such a scenario.

 

[Floridaman]

So, maybe we should have allowed Iran to overthrow Saddam Hussein's regime in the 1980s? Would that have been better? Except the question is whether Iraq right now would have an Islamic theocracy rather than democracy in such a scenario.

No arming both was the correct decision, the correct thing after was to wash your hands of the two and walk away.

 

[WolfBear]

No arming both was the correct decision, the correct thing after was to wash your hands of the two and walk away.

We tried to do that but then Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Also:

That is like me saying Hitler and the Nazis were good for humanity because without ww2 the soviets would have invaded the world..... only with my scenario we at least get a good video game franchise.

The Soviet Union was not a significant threat to anyone right before the Nazi rise to power in Germany. Had they attempted to conquer any part of Europe in a no-Nazis scenario, a Pan-European anti-Communist coalition could have been formed to oppose them. The only exception that I could imagine would have been eastern Poland, which they ended up getting in real life anyway.

 

[Floridaman]

We tried to do that but then Saddam invaded Kuwait.

Also:



The Soviet Union was not a significant threat to anyone right before the Nazi rise to power in Germany. Had they attempted to conquer any part of Europe in a no-Nazis scenario, a Pan-European anti-Communist coalition could have been formed to oppose them. The only exception that I could imagine would have been eastern Poland, which they ended up getting in real life anyway.

1. Countries invade each other that is how the world is. There was no need to get involved in a regional fight
2. My example was to show that claiming an intervention or war is justified because one possible alternate scenario is worse is pointless because there is no way of knowing how the world turns out in a scenario.

 

[WolfBear]

1. Countries invade each other that is how the world is. There was no need to get involved in a regional fight
2. My example was to show that claiming an intervention or war is justified because one possible alternate scenario is worse is pointless because there is no way of knowing how the world turns out in a scenario.

1. We had oil interests in Kuwait.

2. We can still try predicting this, though. Else, we could have avoided fighting in WWII as well. And as for arguing that Nazi Germany declared war on US, well, if we didn't aggressively help Britain in 1940-1941, then Nazi Germany might not have done this!

 

[Floridaman]

1. We had oil interests in Kuwait.

2. We can still try predicting this, though. Else, we could have avoided fighting in WWII as well. And as for arguing that Nazi Germany declared war on US, well, if we didn't aggressively help Britain in 1940-1941, then Nazi Germany might not have done this!

We have oil interests everyehere.... hell we have oil interests in Russia, should we intervene on their behalf to protect the oil market? After all gas below $5 looks mighty appealing

 

[sillygoose]

I suspect that the million dead Iraqis is an exaggeration and in any case,

Iraq conflict has killed a million Iraqis: survey

More than one million Iraqis have died as a result of the conflict in their country since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, according to research conducted by one of Britain's leading polling groups.

www.reuters.com

Iraq could have been in an even worse shape right now during the Arab Spring had we not ousted Saddam.

The Arab Spring may well not have happened without the Iraq invasion or US meddling in the region.

 

[Terthna]

I have no regrets, I managed to block a few drama queens and ignoramuses, and I won't miss seeing their nonsense.

I have a few; several people have managed to disappoint me with how they've acted, people whom I respect, and one or two actually got me to start holding a grudge against them that I don't think is going to go away any time soon. I'm even disappointed in myself for lashing out.

 

[Agent23]

I have a few; several people have managed to disappoint me with how they've acted, people whom I respect, and one or two actually got me to start holding a grudge against them that I don't think is going to go away any time soon. I'm even disappointed in myself for lashing out.

Don't put it on your heart, man, it is the Internet, between anonymity and the lack of social cues, we all go overboard.
Hell, it is scientifically proven that the majority of people have violent thoughts and fantasies about other people quite often.
The situation gets even worse when you factor in the fact that the media, big tech, government and a few posters with chips on their shoulders, special interests and axes to grind have been pouring oil on the fire.
TBH you have been one of the most civilized here, compared to you I was a fucking asshole to some people, and while there were a bunch of massive assholes too, maybe I shouldn't have been as blunt, disdainful and sarcastic as I was to a lot of posters.

I kinda feel like I should, maybe kinda sorta, apologize too.

But not to Marduk, he is an MJ12 level ass.

 

[planefag]

Any evidence beyond a few words?

Oh, and a plane zooming through the sky doesn't exactly cut it.

PROOFS!

Yeah I got yer proofs. See these damaged airframes? Pop into google earth, use the slider to go see older images, they've been sitting there for years, since at least 2012. See the missile impact on that parking ramp there? Also been sitting there for years. And those are MiG-23s which aren't even in active service anymore and would take months, if not years to restore to it.

 

[TheRejectionist]

Blame NATO for not putting a post-war peacekeeping force in Libya like it did in Kosovo. Kosovo turned out somewhat better.

Kosovo is a puppet-satellite state that's barely held together even though supposedly homogeneity except the Serbian minority in the upper north. Not even the Albanians wanted them and it's run by war criminal and gangsters, just as Ukraine.

 

[sillygoose]

2. The 10k casualty figure came from Russia sources, not Ukrainian ones.

Wasn't that just from a hack of a tabloid?

 

[Battlegrinder]

Wasn't that just from a hack of a tabloid?

I'm not familiar with the paper's reputation.

 

[sillygoose]

I'm not familiar with the paper's reputation.

Russian news website blames hack for report of nearly 10,000 army deaths in Ukraine

A Russian newspaper has accused hackers of planting fake news on its website after a report appeared there for more than six hours saying nearly 10,000 Russian soldiers had been killed in Ukraine.

www.reuters.com

LONDON, March 22 (Reuters) - A Russian newspaper has accused hackers of planting fake news on its website after a report appeared there for more than six hours saying nearly 10,000 Russian soldiers had been killed in Ukraine.

An article on the site of tabloid paper Komsomolskaya Pravda, captured by a web archive tool, quoted the Russian defence ministry as saying 9,861 Russian servicemen have been killed and 16,153 wounded in what Moscow calls its special military operation in Ukraine.

Assuming those numbers were accurate and not an Anonymous psyop why would only a tabloid publish them and take it down after 6 hours?

 

[strunkenwhite]

That could be Russia. That could be North Korea. Or China.

It certainly could not be China. Nor, present difficulties notwithstanding, could it be Russia. I doubt it could be North Korea even if China wasn't protecting it, which it is.

 

[BlackDragon98]

PROOFS!

Yeah I got yer proofs. See these damaged airframes? Pop into google earth, use the slider to go see older images, they've been sitting there for years, since at least 2012. See the missile impact on that parking ramp there? Also been sitting there for years. And those are MiG-23s which aren't even in active service anymore and would take months, if not years to restore to it.

You're literally proving my point.

They hit the Lvov Aircraft REPAIR Plant.

Now the Ukrainians can't even repair or maintain their current operational aircraft.

Those MiG 29s were going to be returned to service sooner or later.

Ukrainians were doing the same thing with their tanks at Kharkov after 2014.

It's just to make sure these airframes can't be returned to service even if the Ukrainians wanted to do so.

The Ukrops are out of planes.

The Su-27 that fled to Romania is among the last ones they have, as it was returned to Ukraine sans armament.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Assuming those numbers were accurate and not an Anonymous psyop why would only a tabloid publish them and take it down after 6 hours?

Hm, why would a website in a county know for it's less than cordial treatment of opposition figures where the strongman dictator just made a speech threatening domestic traitors possibly do something like that?

 

[sillygoose]

Hm, why would a website in a county know for it's less than cordial treatment of opposition figures where the strongman dictator just made a speech threatening domestic traitors possibly do something like that?

Why would they, a tabloid, and they alone even have access to that info? Plus it is a pro-Kremlin paper, not an opposition one. Not only that but there is a hacker group that has been messing with Russia since the start of the war and publicly announcing they're declaring war on Russia. Logic points in one direction and not the one you apparently wish it to be.

 

[TheRejectionist]

The worst case scenario for Russia is now they will keep what they have taken so far.

Best case is they get all of what they want.

Ukraine is neutralized at the expense of conscripts and old equipment.

I think the first case is the more probable, but a middle way could be also.