Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

History Learner

Well-known member
Oh, this is going to be good.

What 'recent successes' has Russia enjoyed?

Indeed it will be good, as it should start with you admitting I was right about their artillery for one. As for recent successes, they've completely stopped Ukrainian offensives and now have the initiative, as demonstrated by them taking Soledar.
 
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Megadeath

Well-known member
Indeed it will be good, as it should start with you admitting I was right about their artillery for one. As for recent successes, they've completely stopped Ukrainian offensives and now have the initiative, as demonstrated by them taking Soledar.
After 7 months of brutal, grinding fighting Russia have (probably) managed to occupy a small town of (previously) 10,000 people which represents one of the two supply paths to the equally strategically insignificant Bakhmut. Slightly backpedalling on the lofty ambitions of taking Kyiv and Odessa some had 10 months ago, huh?

They've presumably done this with those forces you said had happily and safely withdrawn from fighting in the north, and then south, to focus on "more important" areas in the east? Or I guess the other options are that you were wrong about how intact those retreating forces are, or that they all just wandered off and did nothing much at all for 4-8 months. Since the Russians certainly don't seem to have made any advances elsewhere in that time frame. So I guess we can assume that this is the absolute best Russia can achieve with full concentration of their forces.

Oh, and also by throwing warm bodies at the problem. Prisoners, conscripts and the rag tag remains of their previous units. Though perhaps this slow rate of advance works to their favour. If they can just maintain it at this rate, then they'll have enough time between now and taking Kyiv to breed a brand new generation, put them through school, reform their lousy training systems and conscript them.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
After 7 months of brutal, grinding fighting Russia have (probably) managed to occupy a small town of (previously) 10,000 people which represents one of the two supply paths to the equally strategically insignificant Bakhmut. Slightly backpedalling on the lofty ambitions of taking Kyiv and Odessa some had 10 months ago, huh?

Not at all, given both the Pentagon and the AFU General Staff state they have both the desire and capability to get to those points, still. What your analysis, if it can be termed that, lacks is any sort of knowledge of the situation, both in strategic terms but also in looking at local transportation networks. Allow me to educate you, as I so often do in this thread:



They've presumably done this with those forces you said had happily and safely withdrawn from fighting in the north, and then south, to focus on "more important" areas in the east? Or I guess the other options are that you were wrong about how intact those retreating forces are, or that they all just wandered off and did nothing much at all for 4-8 months. Since the Russians certainly don't seem to have made any advances elsewhere in that time frame. So I guess we can assume that this is the absolute best Russia can achieve with full concentration of their forces.

Or, better yet, we can dismiss this entire paragraph as the baseless drivel it is.

The re-deployed forces from the Kiev and Sumy axis in April went on to capture the Severodonetsk area by July, rather than wandering around aimlessly as you contend. By that point, and with the following Ukrainian counter-offensives, they had become over-extended, and thus started the mobilization. As both the Estonian Defense Intelligence chief and AFU Commander in Chief publicly stated in December, it was a success; further reinforcing their point has been the complete halting of Ukrainian momentum and now the re-taking of the strategic initiative as shown by the Russian victory in Soledar.

Rather than that being the absolute best of what the Russians can achieve, if you could be bothered to do so, you might find it worthwhile to review how both the AFU General Staff, British MoD and others concede Russian offensive action on other axis is highly likely. Right now as we speak, for instance, dozens of Russian bombers are being used in what is likely one of the heaviest strikes in the war, the Black Sea fleet has started its biggest sortie in months and AFU General Staff has noted serious build ups of Russian forces along multiple sectors of their border.

Oh, and also by throwing warm bodies at the problem. Prisoners, conscripts and the rag tag remains of their previous units. Though perhaps this slow rate of advance works to their favour. If they can just maintain it at this rate, then they'll have enough time between now and taking Kyiv to breed a brand new generation, put them through school, reform their lousy training systems and conscript them.

Which makes it all the more embarrassing the casualty rates around Bakhmut favor the Russians, doesn't? As of the last public statement of Western officials, the overall casualty rate of the war according to them was 1:1, which most make for a rather terrifying prospect for the AFU given the The Economist interview in December revealed they had 700,000 men total under arms, with 200,000 of those combat fighters as compared to a reserve of 1.5 million they speculated upon the Russians, not counting those already mobilized or under arms. That's a decisive manpower advantage and, again, your propaganda line falls flat when compared to even JCS Chair saying casualty exchange has been even so far.

Beyond that, however, you would also be encouraged to look at the conclusions CSIS has found with regards to material:



Not enough men, not enough quality and not enough material. Russian advantages in all categories spells out ultimate victory, as I said months ago.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Not enough men, not enough quality and not enough material. Russian advantages in all categories spells out ultimate victory, as I said months ago.
Comparisons are worthless when you are comparing one side to.... what exactly?
Do you have the data for the other side, and i mean real data, not propaganda, as Russian government is not famous for its transparency in military data?
If you do, i think you can make bank by contacting the CIA.

Secondly, bold of you to assume that USA needs to replace it's inventory of NATO standard ammunition solely with domestic production limited by peacetime bureaucracy.

Go watch this if you want to talk about NATO ammo logistics before you beclown yourself further:

further reinforcing their point has been the complete halting of Ukrainian momentum and now the re-taking of the strategic initiative as shown by the Russian victory in Soledar.
And this shit is why your posts resemble Russian MoD press releases and as such, no one takes them seriously.


Typical Russian media - claim takeover of a city, or this time a 10k pre-war population town (lol) already after taking just some small or large part of it.
 
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LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Indeed it will be good, as it should start with you admitting I was right about their artillery for one. As for recent successes, they've completely stopped Ukrainian offensives and now have the initiative, as demonstrated by them taking Soledar.

I am honestly impressed at this point by your ability to delude yourself.

You still haven't proven jack shit about Russia's artillery production capacity, and taking part (or even all) of Soledar is chump change compared to the massive victories Ukraine has won in the last few months.

All that you're demonstrating here is your capacity for trying to justify the conclusion you want to be true. You aren't even very good at it; your arguments have become more and more hilariously absurd and obviously wrong as the months have gone on.

At this point, the only thing you're accomplishing in these threads, is providing us with entertainment, and demonstrating the human capacity for self-delusion.
 

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
I am honestly impressed at this point by your ability to delude yourself.

You still haven't proven jack shit about Russia's artillery production capacity, and taking part (or even all) of Soledar is chump change compared to the massive victories Ukraine has won in the last few months.

All that you're demonstrating here is your capacity for trying to justify the conclusion you want to be true. You aren't even very good at it; your arguments have become more and more hilariously absurd and obviously wrong as the months have gone on.

At this point, the only thing you're accomplishing in these threads, is providing us with entertainment, and demonstrating the human capacity for self-delusion.

What massive victories? They took, at immense cost, land that had been evacuated. Russia OTOH has kept its forces intact and has been waging an explicit war of attrition to degrade the Ukrainians.

Heres a much more balanced view than the spew you get from western media and twitter


On Ukraine

Ukraine built an infantry-centric army of highly motivated conscripted troops with limited to no training. They support the core fighting force of the prewar professional army and about 14 new brigades equipped with Western-donated weapons and vehicles. On the battlefield, strike groups attack quickly, penetrating deep and fast, then hand over captured areas to draftees to defend. This tactic worked well in areas where the shortage of Russian manpower prevented a solid front, such as in the Kharkiv region. In the Kherson region, where Russia had sufficient density of forces, this tactic resulted in large casualties and little progress, until logistic issues caused Russia to retreat.

On Russia

To execute this strategy, the Russian army relies on firepower, particularly its artillery. Each Russian brigade has three artillery battalions compared to just one in each Western brigade. Paired with correction by massed quantities of UAVs and quadcopters, Russian artillery pulverizes Ukrainian forces before infantry mops up survivors. It is a slow, grinding war, but with a casualty ratio that is significantly in Russia’s favor. Russia couldn’t attack because it lacked the manpower to secure the flanks of advancing troops. Up to now, Russians could only advance in Donbas, where advance did not extend the frontline. Even here the intent was more to draw in Ukrainian forces and destroy them rather than capture the city of Bakhmut. Mobilization has the potential to overcome Russia’s manpower shortages and enable offensive operations, while equipping its forces is possible due to the mobilization of industry. Precision munition production is also up, despite consistent doubt in Western press. Video of strikes by Russian "Lancet 3” loitering kamikaze drones is up up by 1,000% since Oct. 13, according to one estimate, indicating a major increase in production.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Animal Noodles, you reposting Russian propaganda doesn't look any better than when HL does it.

There are effective ways to fight attrition warfare. We could discuss these at some length.

Russia's habit of hurling masses of conscripts into meatgrinders to take meters of land at a time, then losing dozens of kilometers a day to Ukrainian counter-offensives isn't it.
 

Tiamat

I've seen the future...
This was my favorite recent one. Also, Tiamat, didn't you tell me back in November the Russians have no winter clothes and were starving? One wonders how the Russian soldier is able to withstand no food at all for almost three months while also avoiding hypothermia in sub-freezing temperatures at the same time.


HI HL, was wondering when you'd pop up? Soooo, my memory is a bit foggy at the moment, dunno if I was addressing you directly, but I seem to remember stating at some point that the Russians themselves admitted, or rather Trans-Baikal State Duma Deputy admitted, that the Russian MOD had "misplaced" 1.5 million winter uniforms for their troops. As in, winter clothing that I assume you'd want the Russian troops to wear when winter hits so they're not freezing to death.



Also again, noticed you posting bits from ISW. I'll post the link to their full thread and everyone can read through and judge for themselves.


Please note in that thread ISW notes that even with Soledar taken, this does not indicate an immediate encirclement of Bakhmut, but hey, things can change.

What's also important to note in that thread though, ISW has observed that the Russians after getting their asses handed to them for the past several months they need SOME kind of PR victory for a morale boost, even if it's one over a town with a pre-war pop of 10,000 and a salt mine which the head of the PMC Wagner group hopes to exploit. Even more importantly, the Russian's declared victory in Soledar is getting hotly contested between the Russian MOD and the PMC Wagner, so not one but TWO armies are fighting for the lion's share of the booty and possible future funding, kind of like the rivalry between the Wehrmacht and the Schutstaffel. Not really a good sign when the Russians are supposed to be presenting a "united" front.

As for the Russians complaining about food shortages....uh, there's plenty of videos, intercepted phone calls, etc. of Russian mobniks complaining about not having food to eat, among other things.







I mean, believe what you want? Now I'm sure you may, or may not post a multiple page long response to this as you're wont to do, full of carefully edited and constructed bits to support your POV and causing me to go a little glassy-eyed along with a few others here I imagine, but hey, your prerogative. Fire away, no pun intended.
 
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Tiamat

I've seen the future...
Animal Noodles, you reposting Russian propaganda doesn't look any better than when HL does it.

There are effective ways to fight attrition warfare. We could discuss these at some length.

Russia's habit of hurling masses of conscripts into meatgrinders to take meters of land at a time, then losing dozens of kilometers a day to Ukrainian counter-offensives isn't it.

He also forgot to mention that the info he's posting from "Russia Matters"...the policy group itself was established by the Harvard Kennedy School.


Isn't this one of those schools purported to be unabashedly left-wing? It is.


Now, just so we're clear, that doesn't invalidate the school in itself, or Russia Matters for that matter. I just think it's ironic that he's posting info from a policy group established by a largely left-wing educational establishment of all things.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
What massive victories? They took, at immense cost, land that had been evacuated. Russia OTOH has kept its forces intact and has been waging an explicit war of attrition to degrade the Ukrainians.

Heres a much more balanced view than the spew you get from western media and twitter


On Ukraine



On Russia
The Belfer Center is known for supporting "soft" policy towards Russia, and before, Soviet Union, since the 1970's. A "balanced" take does not necessarily mean an accurate one.
As the list there shows, it's full of typical democrat "softliners", and is known for promoting cooperative international arms control with great zeal.
 

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
Animal Noodles, you reposting Russian propaganda doesn't look any better than when HL does it.

There are effective ways to fight attrition warfare. We could discuss these at some length.

Russia's habit of hurling masses of conscripts into meatgrinders to take meters of land at a time, then losing dozens of kilometers a day to Ukrainian counter-offensives isn't it.

You do know who the Author works for dont you?

RUSI

Hardly a pro-Russia outfit.

Do you have anything that refutes what this guy has written?
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member

AnimalNoodles

Well-known member
And in RUSI he is supposed to write about stuff he is claimed to be an expert at... which isn't this.
Areas of expertise

you left out the important part

Lt Col (Retd) Alex Vershinin has 10 years of frontline experience in Korea, Iraq and Afghanistan. For the last decade before his retirement, he worked as a modelling and simulations officer in concept development and experimentation for NATO and the US Army.
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
You do know who the Author works for dont you?

RUSI

Hardly a pro-Russia outfit.

Do you have anything that refutes what this guy has written?

In this case, I don't care who the author is.

I care that the claims Ukrainian victories in the Kharkiv and Kherson areas were anything less than crushing are either lies, or made by people who have no clue how war works.

Russia was not trying to lose those areas. It was driven back by the Kharkiv offensive, retreating in disorder, because the Ukrainians achieved complete strategic and tactical surprise in that offensive. They 'evacuated' the area in the sense that they'd transferred a ton of forces to counter the completely-telegraphed Kherson offensive, but the forces still there got their asses kicked, and territory Russia spent months taking in harsh warfare was reclaimed in hours.

The Kherson offensive is even more telling; the Russians knew it was coming, they tried to prepare for it, and they still got decisively defeated. Sure, it wasn't quite as rapid and crushing as the Kharkiv offensive, but they still lost to an enemy they knew was coming, and had every opportunity to prepare for.

Meanwhile, they have not been able to execute any decisive offensives since the opening couple months of the war. They 'enjoyed' some grinding, attritional advances for a few more months after that, but have been at basically a stalemate in the East for about six months, and have lost decisively on the northern and southern fronts.

Nothing about the war is currently going well for Russia, and unless they actually deal with the systemic corruption problems that have caused their failure, no amount of mobilization is going to be able to change that.

can you refute him?

The results on the ground refute him.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
you left out the important part
That says nothing about him being the grand strategy guy. He was an armor lieutenant colonel in the UK. That is one rank above major, or two ranks below a 1 star general.
can you refute him?
Ok, you like playing authority games?
Fine, take this.

That's probably 3 most well known high ranking US generals, two four stars and a three star one.
 
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Tiamat

I've seen the future...
so....he's one of those useless officers that tried to justify his existence by writing 'papers' while in combat zones so he can show he was deployed as a 'combat' officer. Yup, saw many of those. They're oxygen thieves.

AKA, "desk jockies", they ride or rather sit at that damn desk all day long, or also AKA, "REMFs", neatly spelled out as Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
What massive victories? They took, at immense cost, land that had been evacuated. Russia OTOH has kept its forces intact and has been waging an explicit war of attrition to degrade the Ukrainians.

Heres a much more balanced view than the spew you get from western media and twitter


On Russia:

It is a slow, grinding war, but with a casualty ratio that is significantly in Russia’s favor.

From the Washington Post Article:

We lost five people for every one they did,” said Ihor, a 30-year-old platoon commander who injured his back when the tank he was riding in crashed into a ditch.
...
A clear picture of Ukraine’s losses could not be independently assessed. Denys, sitting upright on his hospital bed, said almost every member of his 120-person unit was injured, though only two were killed.

Ihor, the platoon commander, said 16 of the 32 men under his command were injured and one was killed.


Bro... this guys source of the casualty ratio is the same Washington Post article that was cited pages back which is a single Tank Commander during the Kherson Offensives. Why is he citing a months old article about Kherson when talking about the Donbass battles now?

Russia couldn’t attack because it lacked the manpower to secure the flanks of advancing troops. Up to now, Russians could only advance in Donbas, where advance did not extend the frontline. Even here the intent was more to draw in Ukrainian forces

The hyperlinked sources here are a Telegram post quoting the Wagner PMC Head stating:
"Bakhmut is a large, well-fortified area with roads, suburbs and water barriers. The Ukrainian army is well trained and provides decent resistance.

Our task is not Bakhmut himself, but the destruction of the Ukrainian army and the reduction of its combat potential, which has an extremely positive effect on other areas, so this operation was dubbed the "Bakhmut meat grinder".


Which is all well and good but just the other day I posted this in the other thread:



There's a Yahoo article there referencing the casualties the Wagner PMC's have suffered in that town. 4000+ dead and 10,000 wounded:

Prigozhin has persuaded thousands of hardened criminals from Russia’s prisons to sign up for a six-month tour of duty with Wagner in exchange for a pardon. He left no illusions as to the meat grinder that faced the convicts. They were “about to enter hell,” he reportedly told them, but the assignment “could be their lucky ticket” out of jail.

Of some 50,000 Wagner mercenaries, the U.S. estimates, 4,100 have been killed and another 10,000 injured on the battlefield. A 28% casualty rate would be unsustainable for any normal military organization with concern for the morale and well-being of its personnel.


Russian mercenaries close in on Soledar, a mining town in eastern Ukraine (yahoo.com)

Only problem is that in the past five or so months assaulting these areas and require 25-30,000 troops just to replenish losses and two or three times that number in assault troops to overwhelm the Ukrainian defenses in those key cities. However the supply of prisoners is drying up so now Wagner is potentially planning on employing Penal Battalions of 'Refuseniks', soldiers who declined to serve in Ukraine and were arrested for it.

and destroy them rather than capture the city of Bakhmut.

And the article you cite about Russian Artillery Superiority in Bakhmut that's behind a paywall also says this:

Russia’s strategy in Bakhmut is reminiscent of its seizure of the eastern cities of Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk in June. There, Russian troops relied on superior artillery fire to overpower Ukrainian forces and gain ground. But the Ukrainian forces they faced then were short of both shells and Western-supplied artillery — something that is no longer as pressing, especially in Bakhmut.

“In the six months that I’ve been in Bakhmut, I have never seen our artillery working like this,” said a Ukrainian soldier in the city, referring to the volume of Ukrainian shells fired. He spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media.

But at this point in the war both armies may find the pace of bombardment hard to sustain. The Russians are reportedly trying to buy munitions from North Korea and Iran.


What the Russians say or want to do apparently isn't handwaved into actually being true.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
If a person spoke to RT or any Russian media, and is disagreed on by plenty of other generals and ranking officers then they are biased
 

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