Having been to Xinjiang, while I don't doubt the Uyghurs are being oppressed, I highly doubt some of the trumped-up charges from Washington. There are raids in Uyghur homes (was involved in one myself due to staying with my friend's house in Urumqi) but the allegations of 'mass rape, sterilization' all just ring hollow to me. There's nothing of the sort happening, at least in the cities. Anyone can get sterilization in China since it's free, Han, Uyghur, Tibetan or any other ethnic group. They are committing an Ethnic Genocide through sinicization of the education, and all the work offices and the re-education camps, but an actual genocide? No, not really.
The Americas Apparently, US Seen as Biggest Threat to Democracy Than China and Russia?
- Thread starter Jormungandr
- Start date
That's because Western societies are primarily guilt based, as opposed to shame based. It's a result of the Catholic Church having broken down the clan structures in Europe, in order to hold more power for the Church. Nor does everyone in the West agree with making kids into trannies or forcing gay acceptance onto other cultures. That is primarily driven by the left, in some cases the far left.
Also, imparting cultural moral standards is not threatening world peace. It might threaten local culture, but it's not a threat to world peace.
It was part of a greater response to 9/11. And while we don't know what happened in Bush's head, we saw his policies. Bush tried to turn Iraq into a stable, democratic nation-state, but with various ethno-national groups that were not happy with each other (to say the least). That led to him trying to find someone to unite their people, which lead to him picking the wrong guy, and trying to use him as a compromise ruler. Which required US military power to enforce.
And that went to complete shit when Obama took over, because Obama ended up withdrawing all military and diplomatic support. Which forced the new guy to grow increasingly tyrannical. And all while this was happening, Saudi Arabia was spawning terrorist cells and Iran was forming militant groups. Of course, this all stems from the fact that the European powers built these powder-kegs before WWII. The US spent nearly a century trying to keep them from blowing up.
It would be, if the US wasn't the one who created the world peace based on the Free Trade model, then enforced it for nearly a century, and is now tossing it aside because we no longer benefit for it. Nor are we being passive; we are actively breaking the system down. Trump was the great crack in the wall of Free Trade. In his 4 years, Trump tore away decades of Free Trade agreements and deals. So far, Biden less intent on aggravating Europe, but just as aggressive on China, and completely uninterested in the rest of the system. Which means that instead of repairing the damaged system, he's just going to let it rot for his whole term.
And yes, the US and the West in general do have a tendency to spread their ideology. Which is a result of having come from an aggressive Abrahamic faith. Which you find in the Islamic faith as well.
Problem is, China is threatening other States. Taiwan and the Philippines are direct examples. They're also growing more aggressive with the South Koreans and the Japanese.
Yes--and while there is real value there, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. But what China does not look at businesses as a means of producing value. They see it as a way of keeping people busy. The State would give you a loan even if you had no business plan or workable product. Just so long as you could keep people busy and working, you'd get that loan. And then they'd pump more and more money into it. And there is of course, value and massive growth--but it's incredibly unstable.
That and other issues, such as a low young population (middle aged people sell and lend to young people, who form families--lots of debt). The older population now requires massive cash infusions from a middle aged group...which is smaller than they are. So there's less money and growth to go around. So China's only hope of maintaining is strong economy is by exports. But Europe is getting too old. Worst of all, Germany is the Export King of Europe and would not allow deep Chinese penetration. Africa and the Middle East are not large enough markets to absorb Chinese products. Only the American market is large enough to absorb it all. And America's market is growing aggressive against those cheap Chinese goods.
China is facing an ever squeezing problem of having its entire economy collapsed under the weight of its own debt and mass production. Worse, if any major sector of their economy goes, it's supposedly going to take down the entire system. COVID-19 has accelerated this.
You speak of the Belt and Road Initiative, right? Yeah. China wanted to form a connection into the Middle East with large-scale infrastructure builds and business connections. And that's all well and good--until China can't throw around cash and bodies. Or until they openly clash with India, China, or the USA. Either of those powers could deny sea routes. China could still go overland and wants to--but even a few months delay in oil shipment can be devastating to China. Its entire economy could seize up. And it would probably take years for China to fully establish any sort of land-based oil shipment to meet the same volume as what it gets from ships. And it will be far, far more expensive.
And this isn't really a failure of communism. Or capitalism. It's pure, simple greed.
Biden has thus far done nothing to reverse anything that Trump has done, save for most recently, with Europe. And that took about six months to bring forward and...it's not clear if there has been any real progress made there. In regards to China, Biden's admin has been just as hard on China as Trump's admin was. Nor does Biden have the political or social capital to launch any new wars or to roll back much of anything the Trump Admin did. Doing so would actually create more chaos.
Part of the pain people are feeling price-wise and material wise is from Trump's trade war. But with COVID-19, so many things are offline anyway, people aren't seeing it. But rolling what Trump did back would interrupt the US's retooling and do no one any favors. Least of all Biden.
China is really not as long-reaching as you might think. China has a large naval fleet, but most of those ships can't sail past the sight of the coast. Those that can are few in number. Japan and the UK are I think, 2nd and 3rd in terms of the strongest blue water navy. And the USA's blue water navy is so powerful that a single US Super Carrier Battle Group could go toe to toe with the rest of the world's blue water fleet and still win. The US has ten of those and in any conflict with China, will probably have 2-4 of them in the area, with another 1-2 blocking oil imports into China via the sea.
What China's brown water navy means is that we can't get too close to their coast. But we can still starve them.
Overall, it's hard to predict what will happen to China, because we don't know what the breaking point of the Chinese and their new national identity is. But if history is any indications, China as we know it will collapse within ten or twenty years. And we'd likely see a handful of smaller nations emerge.
The mass rape is not government approved. From what sources indicate, it's sick fucks taking advantage of the situation. There's just very little that the central government can do about it. In regards to sterilization--again, no hard evidence. But we know for certain that the Chinese are participating in ethnic cleansing.
Chinese total war would still not reach the same standards as US.
Because they definitely would take massive shortcuts to get the numbers. Like USSR type if shortcuts
Terthna
Professional Lurker
When did you go to Xinjiang? How long did you stay there? What did you do while you were there? Who did you speak with? How closely were the CCP monitoring your activities while you were in China?
Early 2019
2 months
Economics Exchange student at Xinjiang University.
Anyone I needed to speak with. I don't remember everyone I spoke with.
Not much to say the truth. There are the checks now and then but not much. There is heavy surveillance in the streets and outdoor compounds of state owned universities and schools though. But indoors it's relatively free to do whatever you want as long as you don't break any laws.
So most likely cameras you never saw inside
I highly doubt that having lived there and spoken a lot of shit about the CCP indoors and never got even slapped in the wrist for it. Doing that in front of the cameras is almost a one way ticket for jail however temporary it may be for one time offenders.
It isn't hard to install such things. They may just want to build a case, especially about a foeringer.
Did you use a Chinese phone? Chinese made products?
Short term the bigger threat to world peace is Russia, their demographics are terminally fucked and their educational system collapsed during the 90s and they don't have enough educated people to keep everything togeteher. Their best chance of national survival is to roll the dice and take everything defensible.
Which includes poland, the baltic states and some other areas, if the will remains the russians will be outlasted and then their pretty much done as a power for awhile.
Medium term, china as people said they have a host of internal issues that are all racing to fuck up their shit.
Long term the biggest threat actually is the united states but thats because western civilization is going through late modernity and is in a self destructive phase that will last another 80 years or so and we are the biggest power in that sphere. So our freak out will have greater conquences then other western countries going through the same thing.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Nothing is certain in history. Indeed, someone after Xi Jinping or Putin could hit the brakes and turn things around. Russia still has a massive nuclear stockpile and a hardly unimpressive military given what they can spend on defence. These are adequate "fuck off and leave me alone" buttons which could permit a forward thinking leader to implement serious internal reform. Do away with the last remnants of Communism, pay off the oligarchs to get out of the way, and then unleash Russia's economic potential which is very large, I might add.
As for the demographic problem, such issues are never terminal. Either make it easier to start a family, or provide financial incentive, and the issue is fixed in a generation or two.
I would not count the old bear out yet. She's survived and emerged far stronger from worse.
As for the demographic problem, such issues are never terminal. Either make it easier to start a family, or provide financial incentive, and the issue is fixed in a generation or two.
I would not count the old bear out yet. She's survived and emerged far stronger from worse.
I have an iPhone. I do have a Chinese laptop but it was assembled in the UK.
Also concrete and cement buildings that we loved in are horrible for secret wires or studded things like secret cameras, any civil engineer can tell you that.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
From what I've gathered from other people who have lived in China for years (namely the guys from ADVChina), the CCP are rarely subtle enough to rely on such things anyways; they'd rather question you in person so they can put the fear of the state into you.
Well, the US itself may not be a threat to democracy, but the current US government...?
I know Kurt Schlichter can be over the top but his fictional questions to Biden after he said that 2A supporters would "need F-15s and nukes to fight the government" are well worth reading.
Also, holy fuck. Biden actually said this? He really said this?
He did. Goddamn.
I know Kurt Schlichter can be over the top but his fictional questions to Biden after he said that 2A supporters would "need F-15s and nukes to fight the government" are well worth reading.
Also, holy fuck. Biden actually said this? He really said this?
He did. Goddamn.
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King Arts
Well-known member
Yup he said it also he is wrong. He said when the 2nd amendment was passed their were limits and you couldn’t buy a cannon, that’s false in those days private merchant ships were armed with cannons just like navy warships. Just something to think about.Well, the US itself may not be a threat to democracy, but the current US government...?
I know Kurt Schlichter can be over the top but his fictional questions to Biden after he said that 2A supporters would "need F-15s and nukes to fight the government" are well worth reading.
Also, holy fuck. Biden actually said this? He really said this?
He did. Goddamn.
Knowledgeispower
Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
I mean technically the US never did sign the treaty banning the use of privateers, so until Prohibition came along and ruined everything if you had enough cash you in theory go buy a battleship
History Learner
Well-known member
This didn’t just spring up out of the ether since January lol. For many it stretches back to the start of the 20th Century and has only accelerated since the end of the Cold War in particular.