China A China-Free Supply Chain

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
What do we 'need' China on-board for? What do they provide that nobody else in the world does?

I think you're wrong about everything you've said, hopefully understanding why you think we 'need' China will help me understand the route your thinking takes.
Think of it this way: historically if nations don't get the resources they need, they get it through force before going for trade. This has been a rather common thread throughout history, even in the 'tradetopia' that some call the Bronze Age or the age of colonial empires that put the first two industrial revolutions on the map (and to be frank, the colonial empire era wasn't a 'tradetopia' in the international sense that the Bronze Age was, it was effectively all internal outside of things like nitrates). Trade, in contrast, is comparatively hard to simply conquer what you need outside of the occasional 'base resource that defines an age' like copper and tin (which caused the Bronze Age to be considered by some as a 'tradetopia' as practically no one in that period has both).

The reason that the 2nd half of the 20th and the entirety of the 21st so far has been so peaceful in comparison to the rest of history? Because the US leadership at the time decided that trade is the only real answer and thus took steps to reduce the cost of trade to effectively nill. The 'Trade or else' strategy that I keep referring to.

China can be considered to be the biggest skeptic of this and is severely resource deficient in what is needed for a modern economy outside of REM elements. The US basically bribed China to get into and stay in the system, thus China didn't go to war to gain resources. The border skirmishes between China and the USSR were as ideological (the CCP inheriting everything that the previous dynasties/governments had in the geopolitical arena) as they were economical as Siberia was once considered Chinese territory and is resource-rich.

If China feels that it can't guarantee its needs via trade (some factions are starting to think in Bejing along these lines, thus the PLAN transforming from a 'Green-Water' navy to a true 'Blue-Water' navy the last decade or so), then it will guarantee it through force.

If China pulls out of this system (and right now the right-wing have been proving these factions political ammunition to do so), then you'll get other skeptics to pull out in succession. With the price tag of trade skyrocketing, nations will start fighting each other over resources... which inevitably become large wars that can span the planet.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
History tells us otherwise, I'm afraid. All it takes is one or multiple idiots to push things into a suboptimal play which is nuclear war.

So you ignore the geopolitical reality? Damn, I've got no words.
Fox, China will not use nukes, because they do not want to be a country if glass.....
And no, historically they wint use nukes.
They will do something else major and stupid...like invade Taiwan, before they ever use nukes.

You need to understand that we didn't even use nukes against them in Korea because we knew that it would make anyone else having them think nuking to win a conflict is fine.

China are not that stupid
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Think of it this way: historically if nations don't get the resources they need, they get it through force before going for trade. This has been a rather common thread throughout history, even in the 'tradetopia' that some call the Bronze Age or the age of colonial empires that put the first two industrial revolutions on the map (and to be frank, the colonial empire era wasn't a 'tradetopia' in the international sense that the Bronze Age was, it was effectively all internal outside of things like nitrates). Trade, in contrast, is comparatively hard to simply conquer what you need outside of the occasional 'base resource that defines an age' like copper and tin (which caused the Bronze Age to be considered by some as a 'tradetopia' as practically no one in that period has both).

The reason that the 2nd half of the 20th and the entirety of the 21st so far has been so peaceful in comparison to the rest of history? Because the US leadership at the time decided that trade is the only real answer and thus took steps to reduce the cost of trade to effectively nill. The 'Trade or else' strategy that I keep referring to.

China can be considered to be the biggest skeptic of this and is severely resource deficient in what is needed for a modern economy outside of REM elements. The US basically bribed China to get into and stay in the system, thus China didn't go to war to gain resources. The border skirmishes between China and the USSR were as ideological (the CCP inheriting everything that the previous dynasties/governments had in the geopolitical arena) as they were economical as Siberia was once considered Chinese territory and is resource-rich.

If China feels that it can't guarantee its needs via trade (some factions are starting to think in Bejing along these lines, thus the PLAN transforming from a 'Green-Water' navy to a true 'Blue-Water' navy the last decade or so), then it will guarantee it through force.

If China pulls out of this system (and right now the right-wing have been proving these factions political ammunition to do so), then you'll get other skeptics to pull out in succession. With the price tag of trade skyrocketing, nations will start fighting each other over resources... which inevitably become large wars that can span the planet.

See, the thing is, the only reason China's ability to get what it needs through trade is threatened, is because of their own damn actions.

If they would just accept playing by the same rules as everybody else, and actually deal in good faith, they wouldn't have the problems that they do right now. Other nations are trying to stop trade dependency on China, because China has proven to be an unreliable trading partner.

Beyond that, China is not a 'true blue water navy.' They do have a reasonable number of ships that are capable of proper blue-water operations, enough to be a threat to small nations, but when you actually take a look at their fleet composition...

the Chinese Navy has 'more ships' than the US Navy, if you count all 35 of their short-range landing craft (basically designed for the sole purpose of hitting Taiwan), 68 Corvettes (all 1500 tons or less), the 9 'missile boats' that are 500 tons or less, and the 83 missile boats that are all of 220 tons each.

Their navy is ~359 ships, of which 195 are either unarmed, or tiny and incapable of projecting power beyond their immediate area. Another 79 are submarines, among which only the 12 ballistic missile subs have shore-attack capability, though the 6 type-93 attack submarines might have some secondary anti-ground capability

Beyond that, what blue-navy assets capable of supporting an invasion of hostile territory, they have:

2 Aircraft Carriers, both about 70k tons, one a refurbished Russian, the other native built. They've never seen or supported combat, and if they perform on a par with a US Carrier of that size, would be a serious threat to small and mid-sized nations, but we don't know how that would actually pan out.

8 Amphibious transports at 25,000 tons each. That's enough to give Taiwan a bitch of a time, especially with all the short-range landing craft the Chinese have, but it's not enough to launch and supply invasion of the Phillipines, much less Japan, India, or other relevant threats.

Purportedly they have 1 Type-55 Stealth Destroyer in service, 5000 nautical mile range, but I'll buy that when it's actually seen to perform. They're building a bunch more, at least according to Wikipedia.

The Type-52D Guided Missile Destroyer has 14 hulls in service, weighing in at 7500 tons, but I couldn't find its service range. There's another 6 7000 ton Type-52Cs, and as the prior model has a listed range of 4800 nautical miles, we'll treat the D as a proper blue-water navy asset as well.

They also have 4 Russian Sovremenny missile destroyers, weighing in at 6600 tons, but only a little under 4k nm range, which is about 1k nm too short to get them to Honolulu, and 2.5k nm too short range to get them to the Arabian Gulf, so at that point, they don't really count anymore.

They have 24 Type 54A frigates, and 2 Type-54 Frigates, massing 4200 and 3900 tons respectively, all of which have a respectable ~8k nautical mile range. Not bad, though they are anti-air and sub support ships, not suitable for naval assaults. To be fair; that's okay, they're not supposed to be.


So, altogether, that gives us 54 actual Blue-water Navy vessels, out of ~360 ships. That's definitely enough to make any smaller nation sit up and notice, but it is not enough to let them effectively project naval power against any nation they'd want to pick on, aside from Taiwan, which they would be attacking for political reasons, not resource-based reasons.


The thing about the idea of going to war for resources, is that China has no ability to actually gain resources through prosecuting a war.

Two Carrier Task Forces from the USN could sink their entire blue-water navy, and any number of nations have the land-based air, missile, and artillery assets necessary to sink those 54 ships in part or in whole.

Most importantly, the Chinese do not have any experience waging war on the high seas. They have no institutional experience, their doctrine and training is not tested, and on top of all that, the Chinese military is notorious for spending more training time and money ensuring loyalty to the communist party, than actual competence at war-fighting.

China could pick a fight, but the instant that any three non-US nations of real size and military capability (Vietnam, Japan, and India being the most relevant) decide to have a go at them together, China loses. If the US Navy gets involved, much less the rest of the US military, China loses.

If everybody with an ax to grind against them teams up, China doesn't just lose, China ceases to exist as an independent nation.

Now, to be clear, if it's actually fighting a defensive war, or manages to solo Taiwan with no nation in the world moving to help the Taiwanese, their navy will do a very good job of beating the tar out of anyone (aside from the US) that tries to approach China's coast. Even the US Navy would have to very carefully work to wear down China's defensive capabilities bit by bit, or take horrific losses.

But, the Chinese Navy does not have an effective ability to project military power a meaningful distance from China. It's always possible that they pick a fight with someone who demonstrates colossal incompetence on the level the French did in the opening moves of WWII, but in the long run, that's not likely to help them anymore than it did the Germans.

Maybe in ten years, but if they don't stop their economic BS well before then, they won't be able to support the navy they have now, much less another ten years of build-up.

Maybe I'll do another post later on how the Chinese Army isn't as threatening as some people would like to think, either. Which, to be clear, is not 'harmless,' they have a large and fairly powerful military, but it's a regional superpower, not a world superpower.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
See, the thing is, the only reason China's ability to get what it needs through trade is threatened, is because of their own damn actions.

If they would just accept playing by the same rules as everybody else, and actually deal in good faith, they wouldn't have the problems that they do right now. Other nations are trying to stop trade dependency on China, because China has proven to be an unreliable trading partner.

Beyond that, China is not a 'true blue water navy.' They do have a reasonable number of ships that are capable of proper blue-water operations, enough to be a threat to small nations, but when you actually take a look at their fleet composition...



Their navy is ~359 ships, of which 195 are either unarmed, or tiny and incapable of projecting power beyond their immediate area. Another 79 are submarines, among which only the 12 ballistic missile subs have shore-attack capability, though the 6 type-93 attack submarines might have some secondary anti-ground capability

Beyond that, what blue-navy assets capable of supporting an invasion of hostile territory, they have:

2 Aircraft Carriers, both about 70k tons, one a refurbished Russian, the other native built. They've never seen or supported combat, and if they perform on a par with a US Carrier of that size, would be a serious threat to small and mid-sized nations, but we don't know how that would actually pan out.

8 Amphibious transports at 25,000 tons each. That's enough to give Taiwan a bitch of a time, especially with all the short-range landing craft the Chinese have, but it's not enough to launch and supply invasion of the Phillipines, much less Japan, India, or other relevant threats.

Purportedly they have 1 Type-55 Stealth Destroyer in service, 5000 nautical mile range, but I'll buy that when it's actually seen to perform. They're building a bunch more, at least according to Wikipedia.

The Type-52D Guided Missile Destroyer has 14 hulls in service, weighing in at 7500 tons, but I couldn't find its service range. There's another 6 7000 ton Type-52Cs, and as the prior model has a listed range of 4800 nautical miles, we'll treat the D as a proper blue-water navy asset as well.

They also have 4 Russian Sovremenny missile destroyers, weighing in at 6600 tons, but only a little under 4k nm range, which is about 1k nm too short to get them to Honolulu, and 2.5k nm too short range to get them to the Arabian Gulf, so at that point, they don't really count anymore.

They have 24 Type 54A frigates, and 2 Type-54 Frigates, massing 4200 and 3900 tons respectively, all of which have a respectable ~8k nautical mile range. Not bad, though they are anti-air and sub support ships, not suitable for naval assaults. To be fair; that's okay, they're not supposed to be.


So, altogether, that gives us 54 actual Blue-water Navy vessels, out of ~360 ships. That's definitely enough to make any smaller nation sit up and notice, but it is not enough to let them effectively project naval power against any nation they'd want to pick on, aside from Taiwan, which they would be attacking for political reasons, not resource-based reasons.


The thing about the idea of going to war for resources, is that China has no ability to actually gain resources through prosecuting a war.

Two Carrier Task Forces from the USN could sink their entire blue-water navy, and any number of nations have the land-based air, missile, and artillery assets necessary to sink those 54 ships in part or in whole.

Most importantly, the Chinese do not have any experience waging war on the high seas. They have no institutional experience, their doctrine and training is not tested, and on top of all that, the Chinese military is notorious for spending more training time and money ensuring loyalty to the communist party, than actual competence at war-fighting.

China could pick a fight, but the instant that any three non-US nations of real size and military capability (Vietnam, Japan, and India being the most relevant) decide to have a go at them together, China loses. If the US Navy gets involved, much less the rest of the US military, China loses.

If everybody with an ax to grind against them teams up, China doesn't just lose, China ceases to exist as an independent nation.

Now, to be clear, if it's actually fighting a defensive war, or manages to solo Taiwan with no nation in the world moving to help the Taiwanese, their navy will do a very good job of beating the tar out of anyone (aside from the US) that tries to approach China's coast. Even the US Navy would have to very carefully work to wear down China's defensive capabilities bit by bit, or take horrific losses.

But, the Chinese Navy does not have an effective ability to project military power a meaningful distance from China. It's always possible that they pick a fight with someone who demonstrates colossal incompetence on the level the French did in the opening moves of WWII, but in the long run, that's not likely to help them anymore than it did the Germans.

Maybe in ten years, but if they don't stop their economic BS well before then, they won't be able to support the navy they have now, much less another ten years of build-up.

Maybe I'll do another post later on how the Chinese Army isn't as threatening as some people would like to think, either. Which, to be clear, is not 'harmless,' they have a large and fairly powerful military, but it's a regional superpower, not a world superpower.
You underestimate China somewhat.
Not much, but enough to be an issue.
Thier Army is nearly purely defensive based and thier Marines are the biggest threat to a nation like Taiwan.

Should they invade Taiwan, it would not be easy for those three nations you mention to be able to defend against China or fight them.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Most importantly, the Chinese do not have any experience waging war on the high seas. They have no institutional experience, their doctrine and training is not tested, and on top of all that, the Chinese military is notorious for spending more training time and money ensuring loyalty to the communist party, than actual competence at war-fighting.
I remember once they had a submarine crew that suffocated themselves and recently a report came out there were crews that suffered mental health problems stuck in an underwater tin can.
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
there were crews that suffered mental health problems stuck in an underwater tin can.
That is hardly an unique Chinese problem, all nations with submarines have issues with submariners having psychological troubles, it's just that Chinese only started discussing it now.
 

Vaermina

Well-known member
The real problem right now is that making a China-free supply chain is rather suboptimal as China is the biggest skeptic of the US's 'Trade or else' geopolitical paradigm. If China decides to opt-out, you'll have a domino effect of others leaving which causes problems.
While it would hurt other countries can afford to cut out China, they can't afford to do the same to the US.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
How bad will things get if Three Gorges Dam collapses?
That's the end of china as a super power.

And a lot of the rest of the world hurts too.

This puts entire cities under water, with no time for residents to be notified and evacuate. With water flowing above 65mph.

Total destruction of entire cities.

Not only will countless die in the flooding, but many more will die of starvation and disease, as food sources dry up and infrastructure collapses.

It's a catastrophic event for China and bad for anyone who imports food and goods from them.

This would likely be the worst disaster any of us will ever witness in our lifetimes.
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
That's the end of china as a super power.

And a lot of the rest of the world hurts too.

This puts entire cities under water, with no time for residents to be notified and evacuate. With water flowing above 65mph.

Total destruction of entire cities.

Not only will countless die in the flooding, but many more will die of starvation and disease, as food sources dry up and infrastructure collapses.

It's a catastrophic event for China and bad for anyone who imports food and goods from them.

This would likely be the worst disaster any of us will ever witness in our lifetimes.
So... a good thing?
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
This would likely be the worst disaster any of us will ever witness in our lifetimes.

Worse then Watergate?!

So... a good thing?

I don't wanna see millions of Chinese die. I don't want China to be a superpower or have Chinese cultural and political values become the norm for the World but I would hope and pray and strive towards the idea that can be averted withour millions of them dying.

And if it does happen I don't think it'd be a thing that could be quantified as good even if geopolitically it neutered the country and it's fascist ambitions.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
It's going to suck for them when the dam breaks if it's a matter of time. Nothing else to say. People benefit from the deaths and suffering of others since time immemorial yada yada.

I don't wanna see millions of Chinese die. I don't want China to be a superpower or have Chinese cultural and political values become the norm for the World but I would hope and pray and strive towards the idea that can be averted withour millions of them dying.

And if it does happen I don't think it'd be a thing that could be quantified as good even if geopolitically it neutered the country and it's fascist ambitions.
Shit happens. Natural disasters, market collapses, viral outbreaks and wars or accidents that change everything. None of us wanted the coof but it came.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Worse then Watergate?!



I don't wanna see millions of Chinese die. I don't want China to be a superpower or have Chinese cultural and political values become the norm for the World but I would hope and pray and strive towards the idea that can be averted withour millions of them dying.

And if it does happen I don't think it'd be a thing that could be quantified as good even if geopolitically it neutered the country and it's fascist ambitions.
Would rather have that happen then a war.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
So... a good thing?
Depends who you ask and what timeframe you're talking. Long term? Maybe good for US and allies. The world being in turmoil is how we became a super power in the first place. But in the short term it would be painful.

As pointed out in this thread, many of our supply chains are reliant on China.

A lot of the world imports goods from china. Not just tech, metals and such either, but lots of food.

So this would lead to a global recession/depression and starvation.

And lots of turmoil and violent conflicts in the area, because the collapse of China will leave a massive power vacuum, while countries are starving and fighting for scarce resources.

Say hello to World War 3.

China might suck, but they're keeping the region stable, if only because it's in their economic interest.

This dam breaking pretty much immediately kills millions of chinese, and I can't even begin to guess how many die in the after effects and conflicts that follow it.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
[
Depends who you ask and what timeframe you're talking. Long term? Maybe good for US and allies. The world being in turmoil is how we became a super power in the first place. But in the short term it would be painful.

As pointed out in this thread, many of our supply chains are reliant on China.

A lot of the world imports goods from china. Not just tech, metals and such either, but lots of food.

So this would lead to a global recession/depression and starvation.

And lots of turmoil and violent conflicts in the area, because the collapse of China will leave a massive power vacuum, while countries are starving and fighting for scarce resources.

Say hello to World War 3.

China might suck, but they're keeping the region stable, if only because it's in their economic interest.

This dam breaking pretty much immediately kills millions of chinese, and I can't even begin to guess how many die in the after effects and conflicts that follow it.

If the dam breaks I think that might be the end of the chi coms.

They built it, put their political capital into it encouraged the growth of cities in the way of a potential break and now it looks like the dam has issues. Its something they own utterly. If they collapse then my bet is we get another warlord period which will not be fun for china and after thats done you get a very traditionalist confucion regieme.
 

Rocinante

Russian Bot
Founder
[


If the dam breaks I think that might be the end of the chi coms.

They built it, put their political capital into it encouraged the growth of cities in the way of a potential break and now it looks like the dam has issues. Its something they own utterly. If they collapse then my bet is we get another warlord period which will not be fun for china and after thats done you get a very traditionalist confucion regieme.
I think bordering countries will probably decide to grab up portions of China, while any remaining Chinese government will have too much internal shit on their hands to worry about much.

Yeah, the chi-com government would end up collapsing entirely.

It's hard to over state just how bad this dam breaking would be for China and the surrounding world.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The thing about trying to gobble up bits of China while it's down is that it'll still have Nukes unless all of the silos were somehow flooded as well. A China that's reeling and collapsing is far more dangerous then a belligerent one if threatened. That's true with many nations.

It doesn't take much of a working government to tell Vietnam knock it off or we'll nuke you.

Best to hope is for such a tragedy to lead to a radical change in government to the better.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
The thing about trying to gobble up bits of China while it's down is that it'll still have Nukes unless all of the silos were somehow flooded as well. A China that's reeling and collapsing is far more dangerous then a belligerent one if threatened. That's true with many nations.

It doesn't take much of a working government to tell Vietnam knock it off or we'll nuke you.

Best to hope is for such a tragedy to lead to a radical change in government to the better.


Id argue they dont need that much of a radical change.

Their current government is built upon a really shitty foundation, the next one I think will be some kind of traditionalist neo confucian deal. It wont be entirely democratic but it will be more functional.
 

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