So to defend myself, now that I've for some reason been brought into this: yes, I believe rights are inherent to a person simply for being a person. At the same time, no, I don't believe it's an ethical idea to depose foreign countries to enforce those rights unless that country is turbo levels of fucked that it can't get worse (currently, only North Korea is at that level), and even if it would be ethical in a vacuum, it might not be possible/reasonable to expect success (see again, Korea, with its backing from China and nukes.
TBC, North Korea is so fucked I'd heartily and full throatedly support Putin and Xi jointly or seperately deciding to invade North Korea to keep the territory forever, because they will be kinder than the Kims.
But outside of stuff like that, no, just because rights exist doesn't give outside countries the authority to invade other countries (because they'll make everything worse).
Rights exist above nations because they are an answer to a different question. Rights are about 'what is moral', a government/law system is about 'how to practically achieve a society with X', where X varies based on the place.
Thank you I called you because you are pretty well informed about the enlightenment conception of what rights are, or at least how most Americans identify what rights are.
"bad things". Bad by what standard? As you explain later, not by yours... You care about Christians, not Muslim Arabs, supposedly, and even by pragmatic exchange, Muslim Arabs couldn't care less about your particular political faction's well being.
I mean to be fair even if a group is not my own I can still say that them being hurt is a "bad thing" I'm not a jew I can still say the holocaust was bad. As for your complaint about Muslim Arabs the same appliest o Jews they don't care about the political rights well being. Very few Jews in the west vote for conservative parties.
Why criticize about Jews being moderately aggressive in their conflict with Arabs?
How does that help us or any of our interests?
If anything, it's quite common among some spicier elements of the rights to say that Israel has it figured out regarding dealing with the Islamic world, illegal immigration and so on, what's the fucking point of trying to argue for leftist norms regarding that? I ask again, why would i give a fuck about leftist norms? I don't give a fuck about leftist pet peeves, and leftists don't give a fuck about the Jewish state, why should i give a fuck about Jewish state not respecting leftist pet peeves?
If you don't give a fuck about the Jewish state that is great you should not have to care about it. I am not arguing against you I am arguing against evangelicals and cucks like Dan Crenshaw who want to betray the U.S. Like people complain about Biden or the Democrats being China puppets and some of that is fair. But show me one example of them wanting to pass laws banning criticising Israel, or requiring companies to sign a pledge that they support Israel. Like imagine if the democrats passed a law that made talking shit about the CCP illegal. Yeah pieces of shit like Crenshaw and the Neocons should be kicked out of power and the right should make their faction weaker.
No one cares about your false binary. There are at least several more very obvious options than this, i'll give you an opportunity to figure them out, and if you fail to do so, i will spell them out for you, but my opinion of your intellect will fall.
I'm sorry it took so long for me to respond so I lost my groove but I gave three examples so it's not actually a binary. A binary is two choices.
Because you asked about this as a "shoe on another foot" hypothetical, while a similar situation in fact is not a hypothetical, and most the people who whined about apartheid obviously don't mind it much.
Many of the people who whined about apartheid also 100 percent support Israel.
What Americans and how many, sod off with the fringe strawmen, sell them to a farmer or something.
It was not a fringe strawman, people hate those they are at war with. They say things, you don't like some of the groups we are talking about hell I don't like Muslims. I've in the past talked about carpet nuking the middle east, and I did not mean it. Yet imagine how much more often that would happen if it was a real war instead of police actions, and colonial skirmashes.
Well people have different ideas about rights, wars were fought over this even, news at eleven.
We were talking about the generic conception of rights in America. You and me think of rights differently than the normal way and see them as privileges. I don't know why you are hung up on this, defending a conception you don't believe in.
Taiwan and China is more of a mirror case to USA and UK, just with a different power balance. Taiwan was in fact founded by actual Chinese nationalists who didn't like communism in middle of a Chinese civil war, and the western standard is that the historical home country did drop its claims on the rebellious province.
Falklands are not populated by Argentinian citizens/nationals and never were, so Argentina can fuck off. China was in fact given HK back by UK as their deal promised, and then played silly games with it, lol. So again, be careful with making IRL country based hypotheticals about situations you know jack shit about.
I should have stuck with just HK, to not draw in more stuff. But you realize the only reason the UK gave it back was because the Chinese were very likely to attack to get it back anyway right? If China was weak or forced by a previous treaty with the US to have no army I don't think the British would have chosen to give it back.
Guess what Arabs in French or Belgian no-go zones do to Jews.
Also, trivia test, what does the Quran say about Jews hiding behind rocks?
Ok? I can find shit in Jewish texts that talk about treating Goyim badly, or genocide or shit. I can find stuff in the Christian text. I know the passage you are reffering about it deals with an apocalyptic war what is your point. Muslims could have exterminated the Jews in 1000 AD yet they just treated them as second class citizens.(And Christians as third)
Yes, that is the generality, but as the case with German national socialists you brought yourself shows, there are exceptions, yet you are asserting baselessly that Arab Muslims can't possibly be one.
Again Muslims have existed for 1400 years they have held lands with Jews in them for over a millenia. They could have done the Nazi thing and exterminated them. They did not. Nazism main tennant is to kill the Jews and is based on biological race war, Islam's tennant is not that.
Again, irrelevant generalities involving a fictional situation. I'm talking about these specific factions in their specific situation.
Again you can't prove what you are setting out to do Islam has not genocided the Jews when they had the upper hand. That fact disproves your point.
So in practical terms, small general worth of resources, at least in terms of modern economics (farmland was relatively more important 300 years ago or more).
Yes.
There is also historic Polish culture in Siberia, France and USA, yet i still insist that the Polish homeland should be in Poland, not there.
Yes.
I'm pretty sure Quran was written before Jewish nation in Arab territory, plenty of hostility to Jews written there. Also as a westerner i would not give a damn about what territory Arabs think is theirs, some of them think parts of Spain are their legitimate territory too, so fuck their standard.
As a westerner why would you give a damn what territory Jews think is theirs? Again ATP's way of thinking on this is better. Fuck both of them, ally with one when it's favorable, oppose one when it's favorable.
Ah, so religious nepotism, got it. However, you need to understand that most people in the western civilization now do not hold religion in such high regard, and so even if they are going to be politically nepotistic, it would be on other grounds.
Nothing wrong with religious nepotism you should be friendly to people who share your morals.
Ah, so it's your personal exotic standards on this, so your opinion on this can be casually disregarded by those who don't share yours, as they have completely different standards. Blue vs orange morality and all that.
It's not my personal exotic standard, you haven't told what yours is. Modern western order is built on status quo that is why the west would not tolerate Germany trying to get it's eastern territory that was "theirs" from Poland. Again Hong Kong example if China in the 90's invaded Honk Kong do you think the west would support the UK or China?
If they truly want to, who can stop them? If they don't, who can make them?
Umm there are nations that were forcibly kept seperate to prevent them from uniting and becoming stronger. Germany is an example, also in the medieval period the Italian city states. I mean think about it if it was possible for you to send spies or assassins to cause Russia to break up into multiple smaller states like Muscovy, Saint Petersburg, Novgorod, etc. would that not make the rest of eastern europe safer as they could not be invaded? Wouldn't you like that?
Or because they ruling elites like their fiefdoms. Note how pretty much no Arab state is a functional democracy, so even if they wanted to, that wouldn't mean they would get united.
In fact Arab nationalism was a big thing in recent past, and its decline was highly influenced by tribal loyalties and islamic revival.
And of course the west would not encourage or prevent the Arabs to unite, after all we are dumb enough to let a large empire like Russia to rise up in a place where they would have control over oil and trade zones.
Not "for free", but in indirect support of own interests, under purely Machiavellian style geopolitical motivations. Yes, many people struggle with articulating that or forget to do so in front of people looking for "bad optics", but that doesn't change the fact, but that obviously happens in political climate more dominated by soundbites than multi page treatises.
Yes there are groups out there that simp for Israel to a disgusting degree, and even take trips to Israel and help out for free. So no this isn't some we both benefit situation. This is a group of natural slaves who sadly have political power, the evangelicals and neocucks do not deserve rights because they are natural slaves sadly they are a chunk of the population and are able to loudly cry for their desires for cuckoldry, such a group makes me want to have them lose and hope their sons and daughters end up becoming trannies.
That's a common leftist conspiracy theory. When were arab states stable to begin with?
Including with the mysterious leftist "karma based refugee guidance system" that somehow leads refugees to countries to blame for their misfortune, or failing that, the next closest thing. Which is absolutely ridiculous, and you should feel ashamed for uttering such insanity.
Umm many arab states with dictators were stable and were not leaking refugees. Tell me when do you think the refugee crisis started?
Quite possible. At the same time you would have to ask what those specific leftist Jews in the West think of Israel, what part of Isrel's political arena they feel sympathetic to, and why aren't they living there, you would get some quite interesting info.
The answer is, they are fucking internationalist leftists, and their kind is not particularly liked nor welcomed in Israel itself, so they stay in countries more amicable to their activism (even if those shouldn't be for own good, but that's their choice), quite rationally.
Most Jews(except hardcore communists ironically) like and support Israel yes even international liberal Jews like Israel and support it, they may not support Netanyahu but that does not matter Benjamin is not king he is just Prime Minister.
Wishful thinking and leftist idealist worldview. No, left to proverbial own devices, Islamic countries and third world are more than capable of generating chaos, poverty and resulting refugees by own means and initiative. No need to blame this by default on le evil capitalists/westerners/Jews, those are just certain ideologies' points of belief.
I mean they are but are you saying for all of history they were corrupt shitholes worse than anywhere else and everyone was leaving them to go to Europe as a refugee?
So low level vandalism. Why are people obsessing about this? Israel is not SJW West, they aren't going to obsess about spicy graffiti and spitting, rock through window, and other shit that in the 90's teenagers would do (often it is teenagers doing it, and you clown call it terrorist acts), of course it's not a priority, they have jihadists all around them. I know some retarded western governments treat this like terrorist acts if aimed at the more diverse people, but that's because they are retarded, we're not retarded, and we should not expect Israel to be retarded either.
I mean why shouldn't we obsess about it? It's in our interests to do so. We want people who we have kinship with to be treated good, also many Polish people are Catholic they will go on pilgrimage to the Holy Land they do not want to be spit on or harassed. Why are you cucking for American evangelicals. Honestly they are a group who both foreigners and everyone else on the right would be better off if they were reduced.
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