Israel ðŸ‡®ðŸ‡± State of Israel Thread

History Learner

Well-known member
No, my defense of Israel is more about it's people than it's gov, and I know what you want would kill many of them.

It's people that discriminate against and want to ethnically cleanse millions of others:
Nearly half of Jewish Israelis agree that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, and a solid majority (79 percent) maintain that Jews in Israel should be given preferential treatment, according to a Pew Research Center in Israel survey published on Tuesday.

The poll, with 5,601 in-person interviews of Israeli adults, conducted between October 2014 and May 2015, found that Israeli Jews increasingly believe the West Bank settlements help, rather than hurt, Israel’s security – and most (61%) believe Israel was given by God to the Jewish people.

You attribute genocidal intent upon me because you are projecting, you do not fool me. It's notable you continue to duck and dodge a very direct question: why does Israel get special treatment?
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Threadban: Rule 2E
It's people that discriminate against and want to ethnically cleanse millions of others:


You attribute genocidal intent upon me because you are projecting, you do not fool me. It's notable you continue to duck and dodge a very direct question: why does Israel get special treatment?
Well Israel is a Jewish ethnic state, so I got no issue with them preferring Jews over others. And no, they are not genociding anyone despite your and the BDS crowds lies.

Also, I am not dodging anything, I'm just not giving you the fight you want, and won't treat you seriously

You are just a subject of mockery and hilarity, not a person to have a serious debate with on this, since you have won't even look at the factors of Israel's nukes or relations with Russia.

But keep on trolling for you CCP or Hamas masters.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
I'll note that Israel could in theory make most of the shit it buys from the US or get it from other sources including fighter aircraft so long as the US didn't pull a France circa 1968 and not fulfill existing contracts.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
Well Israel is a Jewish ethnic state, so I got no issue with them preferring Jews over others. And no, they are not genociding anyone despite your and the BDS crowds lies.

Also, I am not dodging anything, I'm just not giving you the fight you want, and won't treat you seriously

You are just a subject of mockery and hilarity, not a person to have a serious debate with on this, since you have won't even look at the factors of Israel's nukes or relations with Russia.

But keep on trolling for you CCP or Hamas masters.

If I'm not a serious person worth having a debate with, why have you spent the last two pages doing exactly that? You can lie to yourself but you can't to me; you're pulling this card because you know you can't actually defend your ideals. Further, you've revealed you are a complete and utter hypocrite because Israel gets to have an ethno-state that discriminates against its population but in your own signature you decry White Nationalists; why do Jews get a pass but the others don't?

You're so brainwashed that you attack me out of spite for forcing you to confront your own contradictions.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Which is utterly false, because such a framework does exist and has existed for decades; even Hamas in 2008 signaled it was open to a peace deal and in 2017 altered its charter to endorse a 1967 style settlement.
No one cares about tactical statements by Hamas.
Do you believe that Hamas can be nice and peaceful neighbors to a newly vulnerable Israel over decades?
Consider who else they are not being nice and peaceful neighbors to.
And are you perhaps looking to buy a bridge?
Even ignoring that, what you are saying makes no sense because Israel has the nuclear monopoly in the Middle East and thus cannot be forced to cease to exist as you assert if it does come to terms on a fair basis with its neighbors.
Firstly, that's again a purely theoretical argument. Nuclear monopolies are not some kind of eternally granted right.
Its something that can change within few years. Israel knows that. Its neighbors know that. And Iran knows that.
Secondly, as long as Israel does keep that monopoly, if someone is forcing it into conventionally indefensible borders with all the implications of that, yes, nukes would fly.
Because that's one of the purposes of the post '67 borders. To create less populated buffer zones where enemy armies may be tied into fighting and be attacked with both conventional and other means without turning that into urban combat over own cities. The latter is a shitty thing to have happen even if you win in the end, and makes use of nuclear weapon politically... troublesome.


They lived with Pre-1967 borders for nearly 20 years, there is no reason they can't again because clearly they could live with those borders.
Well these borders got them dangerously close to not living in previous wars, that's the thing.
Also didn't know you are such a big fan of Assad's rule.
If they refuse to, see above; without American aid the cost would be far too much for them to bare very quickly and they will either fold or cease to exist as an entity when the IDF dissolves under unsustainable casualties. Even without that, economic pressure would be effective as it was in the case of South Africa.
You misunderstand. The aid is not as significant anymore as the memes imply.
It would be uncomfortable for them, sure. They would just have to get somewhat leaner, and meaner to compensate, and most of their potential new friends would approve of this new style. And we both know Israelis are willing and capable to do that.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
If I'm not a serious person worth having a debate with, why have you spent the last two pages doing exactly that? You can lie to yourself but you can't to me; you're pulling this card because you know you can't actually defend your ideals. Further, you've revealed you are a complete and utter hypocrite because Israel gets to have an ethno-state that discriminates against its population but in your own signature you decry White Nationalists; why do Jews get a pass but the others don't?

You're so brainwashed that you attack me out of spite for forcing you to confront your own contradictions.
I respond to you because I find it fun to mock you when you pull this shit, not because I take you seriously.

Also, my sig is in relation to US politics, not any other nations. Israel was founded as an ethnic state because Jews kept getting progrommed and genocided by other nations when they were a scattered people, and the only way they could stop that cycle is by getting their homeland back.

But keep on going, it's no skin off my back to mock your bias and idiocy as long as you want to keep going like this.
 

History Learner

Well-known member
No one cares about tactical statements by Hamas.
Do you believe that Hamas can be nice and peaceful neighbors to a newly vulnerable Israel over decades?
Consider who else they are not being nice and peaceful neighbors to.
And are you perhaps looking to buy a bridge?

Better question is why we should expect Israel's neighbors to tolerate it in the current strategic context; Israel's the one with nuclear weapons and has a history of initiating wars with its neighbors.

Firstly, that's again a purely theoretical argument. Nuclear monopolies are not some kind of eternally granted right.
Its something that can change within few years. Israel knows that. Its neighbors know that. And Iran knows that.
Secondly, as long as Israel does keep that monopoly, if someone is forcing it into conventionally indefensible borders with all the implications of that, yes, nukes would fly.
Because that's one of the purposes of the post '67 borders. To create less populated buffer zones where enemy armies may be tied into fighting and be attacked with both conventional and other means without turning that into urban combat over own cities. The latter is a shitty thing to have happen even if you win in the end, and makes use of nuclear weapon politically... troublesome.

Then we have MAD in the Middle East, again, nothing here supports your argument.

Well these borders got them dangerously close to not living in previous wars, that's the thing.

Such as when?

You misunderstand. The aid is not as significant anymore as the memes imply.
It would be uncomfortable for them. They would just have to get somewhat leaner, and meaner to compensate, and most of their potential new friends would approve of this new style. And we both know Israelis are willing and capable to do that.

Just like South Africa did? Yeah, no:

Let's start with American financial aid. To date, Israel has been the beneficiary of approximately $125 billion in U.S. aid, an unimaginable sum, more than any other country since WW II, and which is slated to further increase to some $165 billion by the end of the new ten-year aid package, in 2029.​
U.S. aid constitutes some 3 percent of Israel's total state budget and about 1 percent of its GDP, a highly significant sum, but one which it could do without if we truly wanted or had to. Conversely, a huge uproar erupts every time the government considers a budget cut of similar, or even smaller, proportions. Moreover, U.S. aid constitutes some 20 percent of the total defense budget, 40 percent of the IDF budget, and almost the entire procurement budget. There is no alternative to U.S. aid, except at the price of a change in the national order of priorities.​
Even if we were to assume that Israel can do without U.S. financing, no other country would be both willing and capable of supplying us with weapons in such quantities even if we paid cash, especially advanced ones, like the F35. There is simply no alternative to American weapons, and our dependence on the United States is almost complete; the bitter truth is that without the United States, the IDF would be an empty shell.​
Furthermore, Israel's dependence on the United States is not limited to financial aid and weapons sales. The United States provides technologies for the development of unique weapons systems that Israel needs, such as the Iron Dome and the Arrow rocket and missile defense systems. It mans the radar deployed in Israel which is linked to the global American satellite system, thereby providing us with additional warning time before missiles from distant countries, such as Iran, hit.​
The United States also cooperates with Israel in a variety of areas related to counter-terrorism, the cyber threat, and prevention of the proliferation of WMD. The United States has prepositioned a huge store of weapons and munitions in Israel, some of which are available for Israeli use, and conducts joint military exercises with the IDF, which provide it with the opportunity to learn some of the most advanced military tactics. Intelligence cooperation is so broad and deep that Israel's capabilities would be totally different without the United States.​
On the strategic level, a deep dialogue takes place on a variety of issues, including the Palestinians, the Iranian nuclear program, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, and more. Moreover, there is a de facto U.S. security commitment to Israel's existence, which comprises an important part of its overall deterrence. Israel may be able to face Iran on its own, on the basis of its independent capabilities, but it is unclear how we could handle the nightmare scenario of a Middle East with multiple nuclear states.​
Imagine a crisis between a number of nuclear states, lacking in means of communications between them, some of which are extremist and sworn to our destruction, and whose mutual relations are not much better. The United States would have a vital role in containing a crisis such as this and in preventing a downward spiral. The nuclear agreement with Iran, so disparaged by our leaders, has apparently provided a greater gain of time than any other option could have, including military action. In so doing, it once again demonstrates Israel's great dependence on the United States, even in the face of this existential threat. The United States has also provided a diplomatic shield from international efforts to deprive Israel of its purported nuclear capabilities.​
Among the world powers, only the United States seeks to promote a settlement with the Palestinians on terms that are acceptable to most of Israel's population. No other state so consistently supports Israel's demands for security and recognition as the nation-state of the Jewish people, and its opposition to the so called "right of return." No other power so consistently defends Israel in almost every international organization and leads the battle against its delegitimization and diplomatic isolation. We saw how the great heroes in Jerusalem trembled when the United States merely abstained recently from a non-binding Security Council resolution on the settlements.​
The United States is Israel's largest trading partner, at least partially due to the bilateral free trade agreement, the first the United States signed with any country. Israel's hi-tech sector exists and flourishes largely because of the United States.​
So maybe Israel can survive without the United States, significantly reduce its standard of living, withdraw into itself. Maybe. What is abundantly clear is that it would be a far less secure and far poorer existence, with severe isolation and a lifestyle fundamentally different from that which most Israelis have become accustomed to.​
Significant changes are underway in American society that do not bode well for the future of the bilateral relationship, inter alia, the rise of population groups that are less identified with Israel (Hispanics, those with no religious identification, the young) and the dwindling numbers of the secular Jewish population, Israel's traditional base of support. It is high time that our leaders finally adopt a considered and responsible approach towards the United States, adapt our policies to those of the United States to the extent possible, narrow and minimize those disagreements that are truly unavoidable, and act in a serious and cautious manner towards our great ally. It is a matter of existential importance.​
 

History Learner

Well-known member
I respond to you because I find it fun to mock you when you pull this shit, not because I take you seriously.

Also, my sig is in relation to US politics, not any other nations. Israel was founded as an ethnic state because Jews kept getting progrommed and genocided by other nations when they were a scattered people, and the only way they could stop that cycle is by getting their homeland back.

But keep on going, it's no skin off my back to mock your bias and idiocy as long as you want to keep going like this.

So now you do respond to me, but only to mock me; very strange how it went from me not being worth responding to at all in the space of one post lol. You also betray your stated purpose by explaining your support for Israel after claiming you're only trying to mock me; which way is it Bacle?

Why do White Nationalists not get the same treatment? Perhaps you've started to accept the premise of the Woke Leftists you claim to despise about historical White Privilege? Again, you have to twist yourself into so many knots here to justify your stance that you only make your hole deeper.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
So now you do respond to me, but only to mock me; very strange how it went from me not being worth responding to at all in the space of one post lol. You also betray your stated purpose by explaining your support for Israel after claiming you're only trying to mock me; which way is it Bacle?

Why do White Nationalists not get the same treatment? Perhaps you've started to accept the premise of the Woke Leftists you claim to despise about historical White Privilege? Again, you have to twist yourself into so many knots here to justify your stance that you only make your hole deeper.
Never said you weren't worth responding to at all, just not seriously. You keep putting words in my mouth to try and make your own argument seem more coherent.

And no, my views are not hypocritical or tied in knots, they are views that do not buy Hamas and BDS while taking into account historical and modern context, and accepting that the standards of the US are not universal across the world.

Though keep at it, it's fun to see you get all worked up while I'm grinning and laughing.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Better question is why we should expect Israel's neighbors to tolerate it in the current strategic context; Israel's the one with nuclear weapons and has a history of initiating wars with its neighbors.
Considering what these neighbors did in the same timeframe, yeah, they have to tolerate it.
Fortunately for Israel, it got into better relations with some of these neighbors now.

Then we have MAD in the Middle East, again, nothing here supports your argument.
Merely having nuclear weapons is not MAD. MAD is MAD. Nuclear weapons are just one of tools that in sufficient quality, quantity and infrastructure can be used to build MAD.
But Middle East is a big place, and some parties may be willing to sacrifice some dozens cities, especially ones they don't care much about.


Such as when?
Every single war involving Israel and Syria. In every such war, the strategic significance of Golan Heights was pretty damn clear to both sides.


Just like South Africa did? Yeah, no:
South Africa was a different time. Cold War, remember? Fighting against commie superpower and neighbor state supported guerillas.
The closest issue to that for Israel is Iran's Hezbollah. And Iran is not a superpower. The Syrian Civil War and Lebanon's instability kinda tied down Hezbollah for now.
U.S. aid constitutes some 3 percent of Israel's total state budget and about 1 percent of its GDP, a highly significant sum, but one which it could do without if we truly wanted or had to. Conversely, a huge uproar erupts every time the government considers a budget cut of similar, or even smaller, proportions. Moreover, U.S. aid constitutes some 20 percent of the total defense budget, 40 percent of the IDF budget, and almost the entire procurement budget. There is no alternative to U.S. aid, except at the price of a change in the national order of priorities.
How does that copypasta counter what i said?
Well if its existential, well, doesn't that sound like something more than worthwhile of shifting fucking 3 percent of their budget around to compensate?
Inconvenient, certainly. May even bring down a government. But if its existential, that's a word that probably can get Israelis to think of their next vote.

Even if we were to assume that Israel can do without U.S. financing, no other country would be both willing and capable of supplying us with weapons in such quantities even if we paid cash, especially advanced ones, like the F35. There is simply no alternative to American weapons, and our dependence on the United States is almost complete; the bitter truth is that without the United States, the IDF would be an empty shell.
I think that badly underestimates how much do several world leaders in weapon sales appreciate getting cash. Other than threatening Iran, IDF does not need the especially advanced weapons. For neighbors and local problems, good is good enough.
Furthermore, Israel's dependence on the United States is not limited to financial aid and weapons sales. The United States provides technologies for the development of unique weapons systems that Israel needs, such as the Iron Dome and the Arrow rocket and missile defense systems. It mans the radar deployed in Israel which is linked to the global American satellite system, thereby providing us with additional warning time before missiles from distant countries, such as Iran, hit.
That goes beyond cutting aid, but also cooperation.
And yet again, misses the alternative.
Somehow Israel existed for quite a long time through aggressive neighbors slinging artillery of all kinds at them, before effective anti missile systems existing.
Do you know how was that issue dealt with back then?
Because it had to be dealt with, obviously.

Imagine a crisis between a number of nuclear states, lacking in means of communications between them, some of which are extremist and sworn to our destruction, and whose mutual relations are not much better. The United States would have a vital role in containing a crisis such as this and in preventing a downward spiral. The nuclear agreement with Iran, so disparaged by our leaders, has apparently provided a greater gain of time than any other option could have, including military action. In so doing, it once again demonstrates Israel's great dependence on the United States, even in the face of this existential threat. The United States has also provided a diplomatic shield from international efforts to deprive Israel of its purported nuclear capabilities.
Implying that USA would tolerate "extremist nuclear states sworn to destruction" of anyone in ME, even thinking of matters less politically polarized than Israel. Like the stability of oil market. For the sake of what? Syria and Hamas being happy? Yeah, i don't think so, that would be quite stupid of USA. Would require a "if you kill your enemies, they win" kind of leadership there.

Long story short, nice article, Israeli ideological leftists want leftist policy in Israel and USA, news at eleven. Doesn't make it smart policy though.
 
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Terthna

Professional Lurker
Never said you weren't worth responding to at all, just not seriously. You keep putting words in my mouth to try and make your own argument seem more coherent.

And no, my views are not hypocritical or tied in knots, they are views that do not buy Hamas and BDS while taking into account historical and modern context, and accepting that the standards of the US are not universal across the world.

Though keep at it, it's fun to see you get all worked up while I'm grinning and laughing.
I could never get into that headspace, personally. Arguing with people like that leaves me either angry, or depressed; sometimes both.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I could never get into that headspace, personally. Arguing with people like that leaves me either angry, or depressed; sometimes both.
There are not a lot of issues were I can take this mindset.

But when it comes to mocking and taunting anti-Semites and BDS idiots, I find it is a relaxing past time and brings a smile to my face.
 

Captain X

Well-known member
Osaul
So now you do respond to me, but only to mock me; very strange how it went from me not being worth responding to at all in the space of one post lol. You also betray your stated purpose by explaining your support for Israel after claiming you're only trying to mock me; which way is it Bacle?

Why do White Nationalists not get the same treatment? Perhaps you've started to accept the premise of the Woke Leftists you claim to despise about historical White Privilege? Again, you have to twist yourself into so many knots here to justify your stance that you only make your hole deeper.
Dude, half the time I don't even bother to reading the stuff you post anymore. You seriously come off as a shill, and stuff like this (especially the crap about white nationalists and white privilege) does not help you in any kind of debate or discussion here. At best it makes for some humorous reading of some very NPC-like ranting, but mostly it's just tedious and boring. The only real upshot of anything you've said in this thread is that you do not seem to grasp reality, mostly because you have a giant hate boner for Israel.
 

ATP

Well-known member
It is a thing; but the issue is that he was trying to use it to demonize all Jews, to help justifiy why they should be kicked out of Israel.

Both wrong.
1.They ,unfortunatelly were elites.In Warsaw jewish police was made partially from lawyears,and then treated other jews worst then german or ukrainian.When jews were send to death camps,jewish police did so - when about 60 bored germans looked at their hard work.Germans killed them later.

In Hungary they win - sionist made list of hungarian jews for germans,not hungarian.And germans let them go for their effort.In Izrael they never was punished.

Not all jews were bad - unfortunatelly,their elites was.And it was enough to kill almost all of them.

2.I do not care which pagans hold Palestine,as long as pilgrims are not prosetuded there.I only state,that jews have no more rights then palestinian,or any other nation.That is all.All nations have the same rights.
 

Abhorsen

Local Degenerate
Moderator
Staff Member
Comrade
Osaul
I agree he went over a line, but what if we did have someone who literally did work for Hamas show up here?
Could happen.
Rule 2e allows you to back up claims of extremism with evidence. There is no evidence of History Learner actually working for Hamas. And no, we don't allow hyperbole, as the rule designed to stop posters screaming nazi, commie, homophobe, etc. at each other (unless there is actual, significant, real evidence, at which point fire away, but please post evidence in the post, as you need to gather the evidence, not staff).

Can't say I wasn't expecting some sort of respose from the staff; but I would have expected a warning before an outright threadban.
If you wish to ask about staff actions and severity, please take this to Staff Communications. But the staff takes rule 2e seriously, as it keeps the heat down.
 
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History Learner

Well-known member
Dude, half the time I don't even bother to reading the stuff you post anymore. You seriously come off as a shill, and stuff like this (especially the crap about white nationalists and white privilege) does not help you in any kind of debate or discussion here. At best it makes for some humorous reading of some very NPC-like ranting, but mostly it's just tedious and boring. The only real upshot of anything you've said in this thread is that you do not seem to grasp reality, mostly because you have a giant hate boner for Israel.

So tedious and boring that you have a habit of reading all my posts and then taking the time to actually respond? That's borderline schizophrenic, to be blunt about it.

I think it gets more interesting when you further contextualize the fact that no one in this thread has actually been able to engage in the arguments presented, you just automatically resort to personal attacks which should be telling about your own beliefs. Beyond that though, the fact you have to lie and dodge about what was actually said is equally telling. The user in question is against White Nationalism according to his sig-fair enough. My point, which if you had bothered to read what was stated, is that it is hypocritical then to support what he self described as a Jewish ethno-state in Israel which he freely concedes treats its Jews better over the Arabs in racial discrimination.

I asked him to defend this blatant contradiction and he could only respond by citing Jewish history as giving them the right to such. I then retorted by asking if he buys into the theory of White Privilege so as to disqualify White Nationalists from the same. If you prefer another example, to make this clearer, would you support a Black ethno-state in the United States? Blacks have a history of discrimination and oppression here, only being able to vote in most cases from 1965 onwards. Does that history of oppression qualify them, the same as the Jewish history qualifies them for an Ethno-State? If no, then why does Israel get a pass? It's a very upfront question. The fact it can't be answered should force many to reconsider their beliefs about Israel, especially given it has been freely conceded that Arabs are discriminated against.

This is all very easily to follow and very basic logical thinking. I can only conclude you're either being willfully obtuse or are unable to fundamentally engage in any sort of debate, in which case why are you here?
 

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