Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

[History Learner]

Besides the fact that Isreal responded to the mortar attacks and that is what hit the UN building.

You have literally said they should not have fired back.

That is all I need.

If any of the people I work with heard that they would probably slap the person. Because that is how people die...

Yes, because killing civilians is a war crime; are war crimes suddenly okay in your book? Specific to your points, and it is noticeable to me you have yet to cite it to me despite me asking you twice, where in the report does it say they were still being fired upon when Bennet called in the fire mission. You said the UN was at fault for not telling the Israelis were the refugee center is (besides the obvious fact said center is, you know, an immobile structure clearly visible?); the official Israeli claim was that their maps marking the center were wrong by 100 meters as to the location, i.e. the error was on faulty maps on the Israeli side, not the UN not telling them. Further, the Israelis were forced to admit they had drones on station when all this happened so the excuses are further diminished.

So, either the Israelis are fucking incompetent as all get out or it was deliberate. You can only pick one.

Finally, the people you work with most have no real experience because U.S. policy was actually more restrictive in Afghanistan than what I am suggesting here.

 

[Simonbob]

Humans can't really objectively direct their own evolution because the time scales are too long.

I'm not going to rant in general.

I'm just going to point out that to survive in a desert requires entirely different traits to survival in northern Europe, with water and greenery all around.


I thought this was obvious.

 

[Zachowon]

Yes, because killing civilians is a war crime; are war crimes suddenly okay in your book? Specific to your points, and it is noticeable to me you have yet to cite it to me despite me asking you twice, where in the report does it say they were still being fired upon when Bennet called in the fire mission. You said the UN was at fault for not telling the Israelis were the refugee center is (besides the obvious fact said center is, you know, an immobile structure clearly visible?); the official Israeli claim was that their maps marking the center were wrong by 100 meters as to the location, i.e. the error was on faulty maps on the Israeli side, not the UN not telling them. Further, the Israelis were forced to admit they had drones on station when all this happened so the excuses are further diminished.

So, either the Israelis are fucking incompetent as all get out or it was deliberate. You can only pick one.

Finally, the people you work with most have no real experience because U.S. policy was actually more restrictive in Afghanistan than what I am suggesting here.

So...innocent people should die to terrorists because fighting back could kill innicents? So I guess we should just let a lot more people die because fighting back could be bad.

You obviously don't know the shit I do about A-stan and Iraq. Especially A-stan. There is a LOT of shit we can do and get away with. We also used local policy as well.

Bear has provided PLENTY if examples you seem to ignore.

GoldRanger, an Isreali, has provided arguments. You seem to trust the UN more then both the US and Isreal....which says something as the US does not trust UN intel.

 

[History Learner]

So...innocent people should die to terrorists because fighting back could kill innicents? So I guess we should just let a lot more people die because fighting back could be bad.

Except said "innocent people" were IDF personnel. Weird you seem to see them as more valuable than hundreds of women and children killed in an artillery strike.

You obviously don't know the shit I do about A-stan and Iraq. Especially A-stan. There is a LOT of shit we can do and get away with. We also used local policy as well.

I'm not really sure how insinuating war crimes are committed on the U.S. part is supposed to proven anything, but okay lol.

Bear has provided PLENTY if examples you seem to ignore.

I've asked you thrice to cite where, you continue to refuse to do so. Very telling, in of itself.

GoldRanger, an Isreali, has provided arguments. You seem to trust the UN more then both the US and Isreal....which says something as the US does not trust UN intel.

Given above you just stated the U.S. is committing war crimes on a regular basis, I'm not really sure what moral high ground you get to claim here. I'm also interested in how GoldRanger being an Israeli makes him automatically correct on anything; you thus assert someone's racial or religious background has more relevancy than the truth of the matter? A curious admission on your part, all the more given your assertions of IDF personnel vs civilians.

 

[Zachowon]

Except said "innocent people" were IDF personnel. Weird you seem to see them as more valuable than hundreds of women and children killed in an artillery strike.



I'm not really sure how insinuating war crimes are committed on the U.S. part is supposed to proven anything, but okay lol.



I've asked you thrice to cite where, you continue to refuse to do so. Very telling, in of itself.



Given above you just stated the U.S. is committing war crimes on a regular basis, I'm not really sure what moral high ground you get to claim here. I'm also interested in how GoldRanger being an Israeli makes him automatically correct on anything; you thus assert someone's racial or religious background has more relevancy than the truth of the matter? A curious admission on your part, all the more given your assertions of IDF personnel vs civilians.

Fire on someone you get fired back.

That is the way the world works.

You want me to go and quote nearly every time he has provided evidence?
@Bear Ribs

Again, war crimes are not committed, but in A-stan things are diffrent then what you think.

Isreal tells the truth more then Palestine
@GoldRanger

 

[King Arts]

I'm not going to rant in general.

I'm just going to point out that to survive in a desert requires entirely different traits to survival in northern Europe, with water and greenery all around.


I thought this was obvious.

Except people don’t generally live naked anymore since 10,000 BC at least humans have altere the environment to suit them instead of the other way. Now there are issues like blacks in Norway or other far northern nations sometimes have health problems because they have trouble getting vitamin D from the sun cause the melanin blocks a lot of sun. And whites have gotten screwed over by disease in Africa. But Arabs are white they are closer to standard Europeans than to Africans.

 

[King Arts]

Fire on someone you get fired back.

That is the way the world works.

You want me to go and quote nearly every time he has provided evidence?
@Bear Ribs

Again, war crimes are not committed, but in A-stan things are diffrent then what you think.

Isreal tells the truth more then Palestine
@GoldRanger

Yes fire on someone you should expect to get fired back on. However soldiers aren’t innocents and killing them isn’t an atrocity like killing civilians is.

 

[Simonbob]

But Arabs are white they are closer to standard Europeans than to Africans.

What?

No, they're arabs. They're not Caucasian.


Different evolutionary pressures, different genetics.

 

[History Learner]

Fire on someone you get fired back.

That is the way the world works.

You want me to go and quote nearly every time he has provided evidence?
@Bear Ribs

Again, war crimes are not committed, but in A-stan things are diffrent then what you think.

Isreal tells the truth more then Palestine
@GoldRanger

Except the world doesn't work that way, as outlined by the fact we have internationally recognized statues on war crimes. If you really want to get into the meat of matter, though, even the U.S. formally follows a policy far more restrictive than that which I am saying Israel should've followed here. No one said you don't get to shoot back, the problem I have is that-if we accept their official story-Hezbollah had already broken off engagement and Bennett called in an artillery position within 100 meters of a refugee encampment. You yourself earlier claimed that distances less than a kilometer or especially dangerous.

As for what Bear has said, no, I want you to cite me where in the report it says Hezbollah was still engaging the IDF when the artillery mission was called in. This is very easy to do and the fact you cannot now after being asked four times suggests you can't and are attempting to deflect, or are acting in bad faith by being deliberately obtuse on this. It's very simple and easy to do.

As for Israel and Palestine, beyond that being a subjective opinion, it has no relevancy on what you claimed; you stated him (or her?) being Israeli somehow makes them uniquely qualified to answer questions. So I ask you directly: what intrinsically makes being Israeli so? The only logical answer is you are being discriminatory on the basis of either religion, race, or both, depending on how you view being Jewish.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I will note that said incident was basically the result of a screwup. That happens in war no how much you try to prevent it from happening.

 

[Zachowon]

I will note that said indecent was basically the result of a screwup. That happens in war no how much you try to prevent it from happening.

Like the death of that US Ctizien who was hanging out with a major terrorist

 

[History Learner]

I will note that said indecent was basically the result of a screwup. That happens in war no how much you try to prevent it from happening.

I think the evidence points to it being something more than that, but I am willing to take the claim at face value. The problem is that, even if we accept that explanation, Bennett is still guilty of being criminal negligent; he still called in a fire mission within-as claimed-100 meters of the center when contact had already been broken off by Hezbollah. The comment that started this whole argument was me saying Bennet-and Bennett alone, not Israel or the IDF as a whole-was guilty.

 

[Bear Ribs]

As for what Bear has said, no, I want you to cite me where in the report it says Hezbollah was still engaging the IDF when the artillery mission was called in. This is very easy to do and the fact you cannot now after being asked four times suggests you can't and are attempting to deflect, or are acting in bad faith by being deliberately obtuse on this. It's very simple and easy to do.

As the report I linked shows, the Hezbollah operatives began firing at 1:52. They fired 8 shells from that position from a 150mm mortar. Israelis took several minutes (number not specified according to the army) to determine where the POO for the mortars was, and then counter-fired at 2:07.

Given that they fired 8 shells from a relatively slow-firing 150mm mortar, Hezbollah was probably still firing at least 2-3 minutes after they started, so maybe around 1:55, perhaps even later given that Israel needed those "several minutes" just to figure out where the shells were coming from, which would be difficult if there were no more shells coming from there. Israeli forces needed time for the strike force to radio in they were under fire, the brass to determine there were no ground forces nearby, the counter-fire battery to get permission to fire, the radar station to figure out where the shells were coming from, the artillery crew to calculate a firing solution (they rushed this part, which is why they missed and hit the compound), and then the artillery crew to actually start firing. Given the incredibly tight time constraints involved it's fairly ludicrous to talk about them engaging after Hezbollah had already left.

And on top of that, your objection is nonsense. There is no military anywhere in history that would consider firing on an enemy who's retreating but hasn't surrendered a war crime, especially if the enemy had just launched an attack and was regrouping. Even if the Hezbollah operatives had run away (and there was little way the Israeli strike team eating mortars could know that) they would have had to leave their equipment so hitting it would destroy important enemy weaponry.

I think the evidence points to it being something more than that, but I am willing to take the claim at face value. The problem is that, even if we accept that explanation, Bennett is still guilty of being criminal negligent; he still called in a fire mission within-as claimed-100 meters of the center when contact had already been broken off by Hezbollah. The comment that started this whole argument was me saying Bennet-and Bennett alone, not Israel or the IDF as a whole-was guilty.

You do realize Bennett didn't make that call at all? Apparently not. Bennett called for support when he was being shelled. Even your biased Wikipedia report admits it went up the chain of command from there and the Israelis looked for any ground forces that could support first and then went for artillery when it was clear Bennett was cut off and under fire. Bennett didn't call in an artillery strike at all, he just radioed for help when mortars started landing on his strike force, nor did Bennett know where the mortars were coming from since it took several minutes for a radar installation to figure that out.

 

[King Arts]

What?

No, they're arabs. They're not Caucasian.


Different evolutionary pressures, different genetics.

Nigga what?
Are you serious? Ok you are very ignorant sir. There are three main races in the world Negroids aka black people most of them come from sub Saharan Africa. Then Mongalods these are your Asians Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese, Thai, etc. then the third is the caucasoid race aka “white people” this makes up Germans, French, English, but here is the reason calling it white is wrong because Indians like from India not Native Americans are also Caucasian. So are arabs and North African, Persians, Russians, Irish, Slavs, etc. So no Arabs are Caucasian.

 

[King Arts]

The thing that seperates races is not skin color but actually structural differences. Blacks have different skull structures to Asians, and Asians have different skull structures to Caucasian. If there is a skeleton you can’t tell what nation it comes from aka German or French but if you know what to look for you can see the difference between a white and a black without relying on skin color. And Indians even though they are culturally linked to Asians their skull structure matches white peoples. Yes even if they have dark skin.

 

[Terthna]

Like the death of that US Ctizien who was hanging out with a major terrorist

Except nobody seems willing to admit that was a mistake, and instead tries to blame the victim for his own death. Whether it be by accusing him of being a terrorist as well, or saying he should have picked a better father.

 

[Zachowon]

As the report I linked shows, the Hezbollah operatives began firing at 1:52. They fired 8 shells from that position from a 150mm mortar. Israelis took several minutes (number not specified according to the army) to determine where the POO for the mortars was, and then counter-fired at 2:07.

Given that they fired 8 shells from a relatively slow-firing 150mm mortar, Hezbollah was probably still firing at least 2-3 minutes after they started, so maybe around 1:55, perhaps even later given that Israel needed those "several minutes" just to figure out where the shells were coming from, which would be difficult if there were no more shells coming from there. Israeli forces needed time for the strike force to radio in they were under fire, the brass to determine there were no ground forces nearby, the counter-fire battery to get permission to fire, the radar station to figure out where the shells were coming from, the artillery crew to calculate a firing solution (they rushed this part, which is why they missed and hit the compound), and then the artillery crew to actually start firing. Given the incredibly tight time constraints involved it's fairly ludicrous to talk about them engaging after Hezbollah had already left.

And on top of that, your objection is nonsense. There is no military anywhere in history that would consider firing on an enemy who's retreating but hasn't surrendered a war crime, especially if the enemy had just launched an attack and was regrouping. Even if the Hezbollah operatives had run away (and there was little way the Israeli strike team eating mortars could know that) they would have had to leave their equipment so hitting it would destroy important enemy weaponry.


You do realize Bennett didn't make that call at all? Apparently not. Bennett called for support when he was being shelled. Even your biased Wikipedia report admits it went up the chain of command from there and the Israelis looked for any ground forces that could support first and then went for artillery when it was clear Bennett was cut off and under fire. Bennett didn't call in an artillery strike at all, he just radioed for help when mortars started landing on his strike force, nor did Bennett know where the mortars were coming from since it took several minutes for a radar installation to figure that out.

Hey, according to him firing where an Enemy was is a war crime because civilians may die

 

[49ersfootball]

I'm guessing the Abraham Accords might get dismantled by Biden ? If he does that, he's really incompetent & putting Israel in a larger crosshairs from Iran & their proxies.

 

[King Arts]

I'm guessing the Abraham Accords might get dismantled by Biden ? If he does that, he's really incompetent & putting Israel in a larger crosshairs from Iran & their proxies.

So? How is it incompetent? Biden is incompetent but not for this, America has no obligation to support Israel, and when American conservatives try to force that it shows a bit of disloyalty.

 

[Marduk]

I'm really interested in how this has any relevancy to any of the points that are in contention, which originally was the status of Arabs in Israel and has now shifted to the question of how Israeli Arabs compare to Arabs outside of Israel.

How can we discuss the status of Israeli Arabs without using any frame of reference to compare them to? I for one think that a very obvious one would be Arabs in nearby sovereign Arab states, where Arabs are the dominant and ruling population, can you make an argument that this is an illogical, senseless and unreasonable standard to use?

Citation needed. Beyond that though, is the purpose of government not to help its citizens?

If you ask anyone who's not a child or socialist, that's pretty far down the list. The primary, non optional role of government is to provide order and security from invaders and criminals.

Or does Israel get a pass for being racist?

If you want Israeli government to care deeply about avoiding being slapped with leftist smear terms, guess you need to get the left to win an election in Israel.

Quick question for you: South African Blacks under Apartheid made significantly more money than other Africans. Does that mean Apartheid was a valid system, yes or no? American Blacks during Jim Crow made significantly more than Blacks in the Caribbean or Africa. Does that mean the aforementioned Jim Crow was a valid system? Again, yes or no. The problem with Israel is that besides the obvious and flagrant second class status of Israeli Arabs is compounded by the fact there is active employment discrimination, as well as in fields such as business and the like. Israel is most definitely not like America where we have the Civil Rights Act of 1964; there is a legal system of discrimination in place against Israeli Arabs that doesn't exist for minorities here, so they argument of "equality of opportunity" doesn't have merit. Either you have to justify Israel on racial grounds against its minorities or you have to accept this criticism of Israel is valid.

So you say that Egypt and other Arab countries nearby are irrelevant to the situation, yet South Africa and USA of few decades ago are?
How damn hypocritical of you.
Considering that these systems existed and worked for some time, they had to be "valid" in some way, just as future events will be what demonstrates the "validity" of their replacements, i don't play progressive games in terms of "being on the right side of history".
Yes, Arabs are not the dominant, ruling nation of Israel, nor, according to most of the Israelis, are meant to be, it is meant to be the Jewish nation-state, not "Whatever-demographic-balance multicultural state of equality", if it was to become that, the whole point of its existence becomes moot, and it may aswell ask to become a British colony again, or perhaps a US state, because that would still end up being far better for them than being ruled by Arabs.
They get some political power, which is better than minorities get in many places of the world, or even what Arab majorities get in many Arab states. Is it perfect? No. Is it better than the realistic alternatives? Most likely.

Also what the hell is it with your downright laser sighted obsession with the assumption that any "discrimination" obviously needs to be based on oh so loved by current year Americans concept of "race"? Both Jews and Arabs are Semitic peoples, they can't discriminate against each other on the basis of race, no more than Germans can be racist against Austrians, or Ukrainians can be racist against Czechs. If they do discriminate against each other, it has to be on the basis religion, culture or nationality. Stop being ridiculous for dramatic effect, it really hurts the credibility of all the other arguments you make.

Finally, I'm not a Leftist and I find it more weird that any self proclaimed Rightist would find it worthwhile to support Israel. Do you believe in the concept of Human Rights and Personal Liberties? Israel actively and violently does not, violating those every day. Do you believe abortion is wrong? Israel is the global leader in Abortion. How about LGBT issues? Israel is among the top in the world for that and certainly in the Middle East. Are you a fiscal conservative? Israel is the top recipient of U.S. foreign aid. Do you hate China the CCP? Israel since the 1990s has been selling our military technology to them. Do you hate the migrant crisis in Europe? Guess who Merkel just gave an award to for their part in it? IsraAID.

Assuming you're an American Right Winger, on virtually every single issue the U.S. Right professes to believe in, Israel is on the opposite side. So, please, tell me who the real Leftists are again?

It is hilarious how you proclaim yourself not a leftist, and then proceed to barrage me with concerns and interpretations of rights overwhelmingly popular among leftists, then shifting to "stereotypical" far right talking points of people who really don't like Israel for a variety of other more or less weird reasons - reasons you probably can't even defend properly - for example, if Israel was regularly and still selling US military technology to US with no restrictions or anything, it surely would get yeeted so hard from the F-35 program that it would make Turkey look like it got off lightly.
I am, however, a nationalist, and as such, i can admire the Jew's stubborn and effective pursuit of establishment of their own nation-state.