Israel 🇮🇱 State of Israel Thread

WolfBear said:

I don't like the Iranian regime due to its oppression of its own people but I also don't like Iran's rival Saudi Arabia due to its extremely brutal war in Yemen. So, where exactly would I myself stand in regards to this?

I also fear that removing Assad could result in something much worse than Assad himself is:

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That pic is quite... agenda driven; say the point about democracy is pure, thick PR paint, its a plain dictatorship with favorable treatment only for those who shut up, obey and don't complain about the shitty governance, minority or not.
For one Assad is no Lee Kuan Yew to get away with an argument for "benevolent dictatorship", if not for many years of unchanging shitty governance with heavy leftover influence of the age of Arab socialism that was kinda shit even on a good day and only got worse with the 2008 crisis and following Arab Spring, he may have not had a civil war to begin with.
In a way that's a quite similar situation to Afghanistan. On one side you have useless corruptocrats with a thin veil of democracy, on the other you have Taliban or other religious nutjobs. Typical "both sides suck" situation.
Speaking of, Britannica has a great, subtle BTFOing of Assad's judgement of the situation.

In January 2011, Syrian Pres. Bashar al-Assad was asked in an interview with The Wall Street Journal if he expected the wave of popular protest then sweeping through the Arab world—which had already unseated authoritarian rulers in Tunisia and Egypt—to reach Syria. Assad acknowledged that there had been economic hardships for many Syrians and that progress toward political reform had been slow and halting, but he was confident that Syria would be spared because his administration’s stance of resistance to the United States and Israel aligned with the beliefs of the Syrian people, whereas the leaders who had already fallen had carried out pro-Western foreign policy in defiance of their people’s feelings.

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Marduk said:

That pic is quite... agenda driven; say the point about democracy is pure, thick PR paint, its a plain dictatorship with favorable treatment only for those who shut up, obey and don't complain about the shitty governance, minority or not.
For one Assad is no Lee Kuan Yew to get away with an argument for "benevolent dictatorship", if not for many years of unchanging shitty governance with heavy leftover influence of the age of Arab socialism that was kinda shit even on a good day and only got worse with the 2008 crisis and following Arab Spring, he may have not had a civil war to begin with.
In a way that's a quite similar situation to Afghanistan. On one side you have useless corruptocrats with a thin veil of democracy, on the other you have Taliban or other religious nutjobs. Typical "both sides suck" situation.
Speaking of, Britannica has a great, subtle BTFOing of Assad's judgement of the situation.

Syrian Civil War | Facts & Timeline

Syrian Civil War, armed conflict that began in 2011 with an uprising against the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. The conflict drew involvement from a number of international actors and helped precipitate the rise of ISIL (also called ISIS or Islamic State) in eastern Syria.

www.britannica.com

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Honestly, it looks like the best solutions for Syrians would be to emigrate en masse. The challenge, of course, would be actually finding countries who would actually be willing to accept all of the Syrians who want to flee (and who are not security risks, of course). Israel doesn't want any Syrians, obviously, Germany is already full of Syrians, Turkey is especially full of Syrians up to the point of a very serious nativist backlash against Syrians being sparked, Jordan and Lebanon are full, et cetera. Why not the Gulf states, then? How about a little Arab generosity and hospitality for their fellow Arab brethren? Poland and Eastern Europe I understand not wanting any Syrians due to the failure of Muslim integration in Western Europe.

WolfBear said:

Why not the Gulf states, then? How about a little Arab generosity and hospitality for their fellow Arab brethren? Poland and Eastern Europe I understand not wanting any Syrians due to the failure of Muslim integration in Western Europe.

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They are part of the list of countries with no stupid delusions about the region and its people, on top of knowing what happened to those who were this stupid.
Let's be honest, either they throw their precious oil money at keeping a bunch of people they don't need nor give a damn about happy, or they give them the Assad treatment, repeating the whole scenario locally.

Marduk said:

They are part of the list of countries with no stupid delusions about the region and its people, on top of knowing what happened to those who were this stupid.
Let's be honest, either they throw their precious oil money at keeping a bunch of people they don't need nor give a damn about happy, or they give them the Assad treatment, repeating the whole scenario locally.

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Then maybe charter cities really are the best solution for Syrian refugees, et cetera. Move somewhere where the government and society are not terrible but which does not involve destabilizing existing countries.

WolfBear said:

Honestly, it looks like the best solutions for Syrians would be to emigrate en masse. The challenge, of course, would be actually finding countries who would actually be willing to accept all of the Syrians who want to flee (and who are not security risks, of course). Israel doesn't want any Syrians, obviously, Germany is already full of Syrians, Turkey is especially full of Syrians up to the point of a very serious nativist backlash against Syrians being sparked, Jordan and Lebanon are full, et cetera. Why not the Gulf states, then? How about a little Arab generosity and hospitality for their fellow Arab brethren? Poland and Eastern Europe I understand not wanting any Syrians due to the failure of Muslim integration in Western Europe.

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um no, thats a bad thing.

You want the Syrians to stay in their country letting them leave en masse just puts off the needed reforms.

Cherico said:

um no, thats a bad thing.

You want the Syrians to stay in their country letting them leave en masse just puts off the needed reforms.

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How exactly are Syrians supposed to reform an oppressive regime?

WolfBear said:

How exactly are Syrians supposed to reform an oppressive regime?

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Same way the west did, same way that the eastern countries have.

Yeah it sucks but if you want to improve things you have to put in the work.

WolfBear said:

Then maybe charter cities really are the best solution for Syrian refugees, et cetera. Move somewhere where the government and society are not terrible but which does not involve destabilizing existing countries.

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But where is such a somewhere?
Who will give away such an amount of city infrastructure for free?
Who will fund it and its denizens for at least a few decades?
Who will keep the islamists among them from making it an ISIL city-state by violence?
The closest to that would be essentially "mission civilisatrice" colonisation of Syria itself, except the people who used to do this kind of stuff are now convinced it was bad and not worth it anyway.
The only other idea i can think of is let Erdogan larp as a sultan as long as he's a decent sultan.

Marduk said:

But where is such a somewhere?
Who will give away such an amount of city infrastructure for free?
Who will fund it and its denizens for at least a few decades?
Who will keep the islamists among them from making it an ISIL city-state by violence?
The closest to that would be essentially "mission civilisatrice" colonisation of Syria itself, except the people who used to do this kind of stuff are now convinced it was bad and not worth it anyway.
The only other idea i can think of is let Erdogan larp as a sultan as long as he's a decent sultan.

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The Erdogan idea is also pretty decent, of course. Relative to everything else, at least.

WolfBear said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_city_(economic_development)

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That's the problem, who would be the guarantor in question, taking on the burden of all these problems, with considerable costs, financial (possibly alleviated by humanitarian aid) and political (not alleviated by anything), of dragging the place, kicking and screaming in many cases, into sensible practices in management, economics and security, with nothing to gain in sight for at least a couple decades, but a lot of headaches to endure almost certainly?

WolfBear said:

The Erdogan idea is also pretty decent, of course. Relative to everything else, at least.

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With its own set of problems in grand scheme of things.

Marduk said:

That's the problem, who would be the guarantor in question, taking on all these problems, with considerable costs, financial (possibly alleviated by humanitarian aid) and political (not alleviated by anything) of dragging the place, kicking and screaming in many cases, into sensible practices in management, economics and security?

With its own set of problems in grand scheme of things.

Turkey halts talks with Greece as Erdogan cranks up hard power foreign policy

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan on June 1 said Turkey was halting talks with Greece aimed at addressing differences over Aegean Sea ...

intellinews.com

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Some Western country/countries?

Well, Turks are ambitious, you can't deny that!

WolfBear said:

Some Western country/countries?

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My point exactly, good luck finding one crazy, stupid and ambitious enough at the same time between wokeness, hindsight of colonialism and current experiences with the politics of Middle East.

This can even be extrapolated into a greater pattern. Israel of all actors in the region would love if the western countries would take an active effort in civilizing the local populations of unruly Arabs, but too many people are smart enough to realize that from their perspective, it would be a lot of pain for little to no gain.

WolfBear said:

Well, Turks are ambitious, you can't deny that!

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And out of all people they seem at least a bit interested.

Marduk said:

My point exactly, good luck finding one crazy, stupid and ambitious enough at the same time between wokeness, hindsight of colonialism and current experiences with the politics of Middle East.

This can even be extrapolated into a greater pattern. Israel of all actors in the region would love if the western countries would take an active effort in civilizing the local populations of unruly Arabs, but too many people are smart enough to realize that from their perspective, it would be a lot of pain for little to no gain.

And out of all people they seem at least a bit interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_occupation_of_northern_Syria

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Then a continuation of Assad's rule might truly be the lesser evil if the Turkish option does not pan out.

And Yep, the Turks definitely have neo-Ottoman ambitions, and not only in Syria!

WolfBear said:

Then a continuation of Assad's rule might truly be the lesser evil if the Turkish option does not pan out.

And Yep, the Turks definitely have neo-Ottoman ambitions, and not only in Syria!

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Yes Assad is the best thing for Syria. Those who hate him should look in the mirror and ask why they fight against a man who is hated by neocons, liberals, and the tranny establishment here the same groups you claim to hate for grooming kids and fucking western nations and manipulating elections. They all want to push western domination, maybe western power is bad.

WolfBear said:

Some Western country/countries?

Well, Turks are ambitious, you can't deny that!

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This is Turkey, you will notice it is in the crossroads between the middle east, europe, and the asian step. It controls all access to the black sea. The only way Ukrianian, Bulgarian, Romanian, and Georgian goods get onto the med and then the international sea is by their say so.

This control over the black sea naturally makes who ever controls the straits very wealthy historically speaking. This is the power that made Byzantium great and the Turks control it. Its a naturally wealthy region which is why people have fought over antolia for centuries.

The problem is that their location also means their surrounded by potential enemies, Which fucked the Byzantines and then fucked the Turks when the West became strong. The only thing that saved the ottoman empire and the turks was that europe remained firmly retarded and up its own ass.

Still their luck ran out in ww1 and the ottoman empire died the turks kept what I consider the most valuable chunk of their old empire and basically kept quiet and rebuilt themselves.

Now their more or less industrialized look around and realized that every one around them is weak and stupid. The Balkans? Their demographics suck and their the balkans. The middle east? The arabs are not only laughably bad in a fight their countries are more or last collapsing. Russia? Their facing the god damned end. Oportunties all around, any place they move they will most likely conqure and do so easily.

I firmly expect a resurgence of Turkish power soon.

Cherico said:

I firmly expect a resurgence of Turkish power soon.

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I just hope that the Turks will eventually once again give a warm welcome to the descendants of ex-Ottoman subjects who want to immigrate to Turkey like they previously did to over 3.5 million Syrians.

King Arts said:

Yes Assad is the best thing for Syria. Those who hate him should look in the mirror and ask why they fight against a man who is hated by neocons, liberals, and the tranny establishment here the same groups you claim to hate for grooming kids and fucking western nations and manipulating elections. They all want to push western domination, maybe western power is bad.

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Just because he's the best thing doesn't mean he's a good thing.
ISIL is also hated by "neocons, liberals, and the tranny establishment" to the point of memery, also doesn't mean they are a good thing at all.

WolfBear said:

I just hope that the Turks will eventually once again give a warm welcome to the descendants of ex-Ottoman subjects who want to immigrate to Turkey like they previously did to over 3.5 million Syrians.

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That's not how you empire properly, that's stupidity, and Turks know it. Why take the people, when you can take the people and the land they are on. Its the people who are a pain in the ass, the land is just valuable real estate you can divvy up among everyone and get paid taxes for.

WolfBear said:

Well, Palestinian Arabs didn't want to become marginalized in their own country. Jewish immigrants would have provided an economic boost to Palestine, no doubt, but it would have also had the effect of weakening Palestinian Arab political power in Palestine. Similar to why many present-day Jewish Israelis don't want non-Jewish immigrants even if they are highly skilled and educated (and are thus likely to benefit Israel, especially if they are pro-Zionist and non-anti-Semitic):

Most Israelis don’t want non-Jewish migrants, even if they are highly skilled

Pew poll of 12 developed countries shows Israel and Italy only places where majority opposes immigration of those with advanced degrees

www.timesofisrael.com

Majority of U.S. Public Supports High-Skilled Immigration

Many Americans support encouraging high-skilled immigration into the United States. But the U.S. trails other economically advanced nations in its share of immigrants with high skills.

www.pewresearch.org

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Israel is 100% Israel.

interesting case of murdered journalist.
Shireen Abu Akleh was schoot by jews when she wear clothes with "press" - so,they must target her.//she was talking about another jewish atrocity on West Bank/
Later ,during funeral,jewish police beaten people.

Much worst then Poland,when we do not murder people,worst even then France which do not beat people during funerals - but,...
STILL BETTER THEN MOSCOV!
So,it seems,that Izraeli standarts are between Asia and Europe.

49ersfootball said:

Israel is 100% Israel.

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Israel Is real!

ATP said:

interesting case of murdered journalist.
Shireen Abu Akleh was schoot by jews when she wear clothes with "press" - so,they must target her.//she was talking about another jewish atrocity on West Bank/
Later ,during funeral,jewish police beaten people.

Much worst then Poland,when we do not murder people,worst even then France which do not beat people during funerals - but,...
STILL BETTER THEN MOSCOV!
So,it seems,that Izraeli standarts are between Asia and Europe.

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But your country undermines the rule of law:


Or at least the EU thinks that it does.