Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

CarlManvers2019 said:

Between Enclave and NCR occupation, which has better treatment of locals? Like NOT mistreating them or having their way with the women and trying to force the local bar to give them drinks for free among other things

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The US is a well disciplined, all volunteer force with a comprehensive logistical system supplying them. The allies they are bringing in are friendly nations that have every reason to impress and comport themselves in a proper manner.

The NCR is partially conscripting its army with rushed training, a burning hatred for the people they are invading, and supply stocks they will struggle to refill. The allies they are bringing in consist of; 1.press ganged bandits with very limited training and discipline 2. Communist Chinese that probably see this as a chance to finally get even for WWIII.

I'll let you decide which is a better bet.

Going by TvTropes speak, can this still be called “Gray and Gray Morality”?

CarlManvers2019 said:

Going by TvTropes speak, can this still be called “Gray and Gray Morality”?

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Oh yeah, each side has its saints and sinners, crimes and good deeds stretching back to both their foundings. Much like real life no one has a perfectly moral solution where everyone wins. Geopolitics are a bitch like that.

SuperHeavy said:

Oh yeah, each side has its saints and sinners, crimes and good deeds stretching back to both their foundings. Much like real life no one has a perfectly moral solution where everyone wins. Geopolitics are a bitch like that.

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Still, there exists a lesser evil and one who is smarter and more efficient and likely to fix stuff

If the NCR is still grey, it's a dark grey.

And, yeah, there are some people who take really annoying tacks when trying to assign blame for the world getting nuked in Fallout. People who try to say America had the invasion of Alaska coming because they refused to share Alaskan oil. People who try to say that, after kicking China out of Alaska, America should have just been content with that and not launched any reprisals.

Fuck that noise.

China started it and flipped the table when it realized America was going to finish it.

SuperHeavy said:

Oh yeah, each side has its saints and sinners, crimes and good deeds stretching back to both their foundings. Much like real life no one has a perfectly moral solution where everyone wins. Geopolitics are a bitch like that.

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Very true.

Also, I'm surprised noone noticed the ME reference in the latest chapter.

Navarro said:

Very true.

Also, I'm surprised noone noticed the ME reference in the latest chapter.

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Are you still considering that Mass Effect cross over when this is finished?

Navarro said:

Danse seems like the type to be a fanatic of the first ideology presented to him, yes.

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All the Synths you meet in FO4 are and imo it's not even wholly by design but rather that the Institute can only 'program' in so much of their personalities with the rest being formed by impression i.e. the Synth sent to replace a gangster becomes not just a gangster by 'profession' but by 'religion,' with the same happening with Danse and the BoS in that he is perfectly willing to let you end his life as the Brotherhood wills, but if you convince Maxson to spare him even as he gets officially kicked out of the BoS... he's perfectly fine with that since you and Maxson are BoS and he's not so he has no say.

Question: did the E-USA kill / destroy all the existing Synths (or at least those they could catch) or did they come to some arrangement? And since it's Fallout I can't imagine there isn't some Institute inspired E-USA group going further and further into Institute flavored mad science considering how the setting breeds S.P.E.C.I.A.L. people who don't just survive, but thrive.

Most "bunker people" groups are highly xenophobic - see Vault City, the Boomers, Vault 101, the Institute - but I would call the BOS elitist as their ideology possesses the factor that they are the only group fit to wield advanced technology, and they have a duty to control its use (usually by killing other highly-advanced groups and taking their stuff). They dislike "primitive wastelanders" less than they dislike other advanced groups - the former brings contempt, the latter outright hatred.

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That's a fair point, but I'd still argue that that mentality is encapsulated in their bog standard tribalism since outside of the canon FO3 DC Brotherhood which was pushed to OOC / Sue levels of friendliness because they straight up disallowed the Lone Wanderer to side with any Enclave other than President Skynet, the BoS simply doesn't see the wastelanders as kin to them while the NCR / E-USA and etc. are other tribes that are actual or potential enemies. But unless their internal culture has radically shifted, inside the Chapters themselves and between Chapters they are pretty egalitarian within their chain of command until you get to the mad scientists like Father Elijah.

At most I'd say the Midwest BoS are 'de facto' elitists since they were forced by circumstance to take control of the wastelander communities surrounding their bunkers before the NCR / E-USA contacted them.

SuperHeavy said:

Oh yeah, each side has its saints and sinners, crimes and good deeds stretching back to both their foundings. Much like real life no one has a perfectly moral solution where everyone wins. Geopolitics are a bitch like that.

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Expanding on this, the NCR would be better off politically without the Enclave threat. The energy that went into the war effort would have gone into a general reformation of society (of course its tech base and military would still be the total shit they were in FNV, but you win some you lose some). Also, anti-Enclave sentiment isn't the same across the NCR - generally in the south it's weaker and in the north stronger.

Navarro said:

Also, anti-Enclave sentiment isn't the same across the NCR - generally in the south it's weaker and in the north stronger.

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Since I think the Southern parts are newer, I guess they’re more likely to defect to the Enclave with little trouble

Still, Enclave Derangement Syndrome at least has more justification in the North.

CarlManvers2019 said:

Since I think the Southern parts are newer, I guess they’re more likely to defect to the Enclave with little trouble

Still, Enclave Derangement Syndrome at least has more justification in the North.

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The southern parts of the NCR are largely the original parts which joined up under Aradesh in the late 22nd century, plus New Vegas and the States of Flagstaff, Phoenix and Two-Sun over in Arizona.

Navarro said:

The southern parts of the NCR are largely the original parts which joined up under Aradesh in the late 22nd century, plus New Vegas and the States of Flagstaff, Phoenix and Two-Sun over in Arizona.

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Oh okay

Speaking of New Vegas, is the Courier somebody remembered by the Enclave as “the second most dangerous terrorist in the world”?

I imagine that even Enclave personnel could have a possible theory about how every now and then, there come about lone individuals who gain incredible fighting, speech and scientific skills and their involvement makes great change, good or bad

The Lone Wanderer and Sole Survivor, just might be known to be such rare individuals on the Enclave’s side

Possibly even known to be One-Man-Armies by themselves

Yeah. Hatred of the Enclave is stronger in the north because the north is where the Enclave was more active.

Though I imagine even then it's mostly concentrated in the states of Arroyo and Redding. Because other than the Chosen One insisting that the Enclave wanted to exterminate everyone with a biological weapon . . . The Enclave didn't really do much of anything to the NCR.

Like, they abducted the populations of Vault 13 and Arroyo. And they also kidnapped some miners from Redding to use as forced labor for excavating Mariposa to get a pure FEV sample.

But other than that? They had a secret trade deal with New Reno and they established themselves at Navarro.

Like, sure, some tribal villagers and vault dwellers can say the Enclave performed nasty tests on them. But anything that actually proves the Enclave was genocidal got atomized along with the oil rig. I guess when you cozy up to President For Life Tandi you get to steer national policy.

ForeverShogo said:

People who try to say America had the invasion of Alaska coming because they refused to share Alaskan oil.

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The US was kinda sitting on the various technologies like fusion and AI needed to keep the Chinese population alive as everything was running out. Did that means nuclear retaliation was the best move, no, but China was backed into one hell of a corner.

SuperHeavy said:

The US was kinda sitting on the various technologies like fusion and AI needed to keep the Chinese population alive as everything was running out. Did that means nuclear retaliation was the best move, no, but China was backed into one hell of a corner.

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There’s the problem in that China was an enemy, giving them tech could backfire

That said, whatever occurred with Russia to make them a friend&ally, could maybe have been done to China

Though, I think China would end up like today’s version

CarlManvers2019 said:

There’s the problem in that China was an enemy, giving them tech could backfire

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It could also save billions of lives across the globe even if they are communist or non-Americans. Of course I'm not saying this would have insured WWIII would never happen but at least they could have tried.

SuperHeavy said:

It could also save billions of lives across the globe even if they are communist or non-Americans. Of course I'm not saying this would have insured WWIII would never happen but at least they could have tried.

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Still, handing over possible weapons to a long time enemy is asking for trouble, all those decades of paranoia can do wonders to the human mind

Hell, their Communist Government may still end up decrying the USA even as it helps save it

I think in the Fallout timeline, China stayed hardcore Maoist and the Soviet Union were the ones to get a Deng Xiaoping figure.

And you'd also get something like, "Only Nixon could go to the Soviet Union."

Instead of the historical quote about going to China.

And while it wouldn't exactly be the nicest to deny China access to those technologies . . . Nations are't really under any obligation to share cutting edge technologies with a hostile rival power. Especially when keeping it out of their hands will ensure their downfall without firing a shot.

I don't actually think China was wrong to make a play for Alaska out of sheer desperation. It was basically that or collapse. I just don't like it when people act like America had it coming because they didn't engage in appeasement.

ForeverShogo said:

I don't actually think China was wrong to make a play for Alaska out of sheer desperation. It was basically that or collapse. I just don't like it when people act like America had it coming because they didn't engage in appeasement.

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If it helps, I think plenty of people, while not outright saying it, DO want Communism and romanticize it a lot

So I finally caught caught up on the story. I have not read anything but story posts yet but here are my thoughts so far.


Overall the build to this point has been good. You definitely made the right choice in having a long timeline. Any battle between post Fallout 3 Enclave and post New Vegas NCR besides small units would have been unbelievable. Thousands of miles and lack of a society capable of crossing it would have broken my SOD beyond belief.

That said I do feel even with the decades of build up that some things seemed rushed. Having lots of new skyscrapers in D.C. for one. Even in today's world you have to travel to edge of the beltway to see really skyscrapers. The Enclave is all about Amercian history and regaining what was lost. I would then expect to see D.C. rebuilt with more lower level buildings. Not to mention that finding funds to build this gs like the mentioned freedom tower would be a massive project on a newly formed country that has to rebuild everything. To put it in perspective the REA was founded in 1934 to bring electricity to rual Amercia and it took till the 1970s for 98 percent of amercian farms to have electric power. That is 40 years in a county jail hat was not destroyed and facing manpower issues.

Not to mention all the space stuff. While the Fallout games pay fast and lose with reality at times trips to Mars seem far fetched. While I can believe that they have rebuild the GPS network and took over what ever pre-war assets where available I doubt the ability of the Enclave to mot only conquer half of rebuild rebuild it and expand a space programs to this level.

So I know that we are seeing the capital from the veiw pointing Amercain royalty but I do believe that you are under estimating the scale of rebuilding that the Enclave has to on top of funding a hand full of proxy wars. Maybe showcasing how areas outside of the enclave heartland have a lower tech level may help.

I do like the view of the NCR and Enclave allies. Both sides mainly veiw them as nice bullet shields or body's to hold conquered ground. Along with both sides having different versions of manifest destiny it shows that both side are more alike then they would admit. The Lone Star Republics veiws points just highlight that the actions of the NCR and Enclave are very similar.

So far it does seem like the NCR's post New Vegas bombing has created a bit of problem for them. The people ppl le in power or at least some of them like the advisor have brought their own hype. While the Enclave is more authoritarian then they would admit to the NCR has lost the the ability to really gauge the Enclaves actions and still have there veiw colored by the Oil Rig Enclave.

Simply put while the Enclave has whitewashed their history go hell and back they have also made some massive changes. It is no longer only "Pure" humans or bust. While I am sure the good old boys of truest Enclave families and vault have n outsized portion of power other groups are treated fairly well and have paths to power too. This mean assuming that the Enclave is only around because it keeps the boot on the neck of its population is wrong.

It also does not help that the NCR still seems to be in a version of the glided age. While nice safe roads and the mass adoption of trucks broke carvan compies others like the Brahmin barons still have their power unbroken.

But at least it seems the NCR has managed a fairly successful industrial build up. While their top of the line gear may not be better and they lack some assets like space nukes the Enclave will not be able to roll over them. But I do feel that the focus on the NCR heartland will hurt them. The fact th that they thought to remove the AA defense of FortHood shows that the NCR needs to start rethinking the current war soon or they will be fighting in Vegas in days.

The first couple chapters did an o.k. job of introducing new characters that I assume we will follow though the war. But there was a lot of info dumps around. I know you tried to hide them in the chapter with things like trying to bbe part of a parade but it did get to be a bit much. Hopefully you can scale that back and focus more on events and characters.

Now the last chapters kick off to the invasion. Here we see that most of the Lone Star Republic doesn't want to fight the Enclave and I am will to bet fight for them to. So the Enclaves best bet is to help establish a new Lone Star Goverment and get permission to have the Enclave military transportation rights though the country. As it stand the Lone Star Republic is not going to be able to help much. They have just fought a civil war and while the Enclave is trying to be selective in its targets it will take time to rebuild. Also the Lone Star Republic was never one equal footing with the NCR since New Vegas. So better to let them rebuild and build up some good will. The Enclave already got them to agree to reintegration once. So if the Enclave wins the war it should be easy enough to do again without the NCR interfering. No need to waste resources, time or good will forcing it in a middle of the war.

To bad that like eastern europe sitting between to superpowers gives you little choice but to choose a side. I do have to wonder if most of the NCR's have been replaced with androids sleepr agents. I know that the Institute had some scary mind tech and for a the Enclave talk they would not hesitate to continue the Institue's research.

So I am look in ng forward to seeing a real clash between the two superpowers without proxy fighters on any side. I honestly thing both are in for a surprise sn8ce they have not frouvht a true life or death battle for more then a generation. The Enclave's battle in Roto while hard if lost where not going to destroy the Enclave. Cause a massive set back but the Enclave would live on. The same with the NCR. While the Legion winning in New Vegas would hurt it would not destroy the NCR. The Legion was dead once Cesar died and fighting though mountains with short supply chains would lead to the NCR bleeding the Legion dry. The last existential fights was the D.C. brotherhood for the Enclave and the Enclave at the Oil Rig for the NCR. Both those are now outside living memory for them which causes a change in viewpoints of those making plans and those actually fighting the war.


I do have to wonder how much power the Midwest Brotherhood has. While I they picked up some recruiters from those that feld from D.C. seen in the Roto battle and those that feld the NCR they have lost a lot of land and chapters. The Midwest Brotherhood use to have a presence in Chicago and places like ST. Loius. Along with having lots of old war military bases and tech centers under their control. But they lost their NCR assets and ground to the Enclave leaving them with scraps and land that was unpopular pre-war let alone post war. I do hope that they are better and have finally reformed some. That is still my biggest disappointment with the Fallout world. Here you have an interesting organization with well thought out and flesh out backstory but it never changes. While you have things like the NCR get its start in Fallout one and build up in 2 and expansion IN new Veags you see the Brotherhood go crazy. In Fallout 1 you have them break the mold and start making contact to the outside world. Then into you see the wrom you did in one made them expand and grow even more. But then New Vegas rewinds the clock. Fallout 3 builds them up to do a hack job on them in Fallout 4. Tactics shows how logically the Bortherhood could change from a small tech cult to a major power but was wiped out little mentions at best.

So in your last story you had the the two sides of the Brotherhood dogma shown. I am hoping that post Roto defeat that more of the Fallout 3 Brotherhood is around then Fallout 1 because a small elite tech cult is just that. A small group hiding in bunkers that do not matter. While a mix of the Tatics and Fallout 3 versions are one that could make for an interesting side in the oncoming war.