Antonin Scalia disagreed with you..vehemently.
And so did a lot of gay Christians who felt that it was an attack on all the worlds religions to redefine marriage.
LGBT and the US Conservative Movement
- Thread starter FriedCFour
- Start date
Antonin Scalia disagreed with you..vehemently.
And so did a lot of gay Christians who felt that it was an attack on all the worlds religions to redefine marriage.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
This is a rational argument to make, but I remain unconvinced they bring enough firepower to the table to make the trouble worth it.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
I literally give zero fucks about heretical arguments from classical liberal premises. They mean nothing to me.
LindyAF
Well-known member
Cite polls then, or any other kind of data.
Because as I've said, I think you're interacting with the segment of LGBs who are Republican-leaning independents or Republicans. I don't doubt that it's a reasonably popular position among LGBs who are Republican-leaning independents or Republicans. But you guys are not a significant part of LGBs.
As far as I can tell, the only LGBs among whom "drop the T" is popular are 1) Republican-leaning independent or Republican LGBs, who make up <25% of LGBs. And it isn't universal there. 2) TERFs who are maybe like 5% of Ls, highballing it.
Just how popular do you think this is among LGBs? My guess would be at highest 25%. Does your perception differ or, if so what do you think the percentage is?
I've been trying to find any polls of LGBTs on the issues, the although I've only found the Williams Institute one on candidate preferences so far.
They occupy a lot of the upper middle class and make up a decent minority of small business owners. Small business owners and well off soccer moms are the demographics who are usually the backbone and key to any successful overthrow of a progressive culture and its replacement by a right wing populist group. Amusingly enough, this same class of gay men were some of the prime supporters of the old religious right in the US because they wanted to take a flamethrower to Bathhouse culture and were willing to take the loss of public face to do it.
So the relationship has always been there impure and cynical as it might be in your eyes.
It's also why the Juntas in Latin America generally left gays alone if they had cover wives, until younger generations of gay men started flirting with communism. they usually could count on what I like to call "The lipstick lesbian and chad gay man cartel" to be on the front lines against degeneracy because any fallout from it affected them first and foremost.
Whether that alliance would still be effective in current year, when you have all the based immigrants I keep talking about occupying much of the same socio-economic niches they did in years past and fulfilling the same role is up for debate.
I don't think there's any group on the planet who hates transgender people more intensely and passionately than Lesbians of any political persuasion.
The term "rapist in a dress" is the nicest thing I've heard the ones I work out with use in relation trans people.
I have spent 15 pages trying to tell them you and Fried wouldn't.
Maybe now that you've said it, they'll listen
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Gladiator
Well-known member
I don't care about atypical marriage one way or another. In the matter of love I always felt it was a pointless gesture. Marriage as in "these two people love each other, and think of each other as eternal partners" is what matters, and you don't need to register or get a license for that. Common-law marriage is a thing, and even Freddie Mercury had that with Mary Austin for years before they broke up. However, the impact remained and he gave her his ashes.
It's a battle that doesn't matter unless you are specifically looking for the boons that come with marriage. The privileges, and the lot. Which kind of hurts that idea because it should just be about love.
It's a battle that doesn't matter unless you are specifically looking for the boons that come with marriage. The privileges, and the lot. Which kind of hurts that idea because it should just be about love.
You're right, the tax benefits really do make the whole concept seem cynical as hell don't they? Well minus the tax write offs for kids..But you don't need to be married for some of those. And I'm of the mind married or not, gay or straight you should absolutely be rewarded for being a father or a mother and raising a happy and functional kid.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Fine. I will hold my powder on this. But I nominate you as the Gay Whisperer for all further negotiations.
On the plus side, our new party logo and motif, flag and lapel pins will all look fucking amazing
edit- the original premise behind what I'm describing here in the US was the Religious right, the proto Log Cabin Republicans and the nativist/militia bros all agreeing to back the religious right as they had the best chance to take over and going.
"After we've knocked over the Weathermen leftovers, the ecoterrorists, the NAMBLA freaks and bug chasers we can have a four way fight over who gets to run the show but until then we are brothers in arms".
Gladiator
Well-known member
Basically, I am of the mind of why should you care how other religions define marriage? Let them define it how they want. It only becomes a problem when they try stop you from loving who you want, and you don't need a theatrical wedding in a church for that one.
The same people who want to redefine a religion's core belief system just usually want to dismantle the religion entirely. It's a slippery slope until that religion becomes unrecognizable, and gets bloated with people who just want more advantages.
However, some changes do definitely need to happen but Christianity isn't the problem.
Islam is.
The same people who want to redefine a religion's core belief system just usually want to dismantle the religion entirely. It's a slippery slope until that religion becomes unrecognizable, and gets bloated with people who just want more advantages.
However, some changes do definitely need to happen but Christianity isn't the problem.
Islam is.
These are also the same people who are presently attempting to use peer pressure and threats of job loss and homeleness to force lesbians to have sex with a dude in a dress or gay men to take a woman whose psuedo penis is made out of her forearm to bed and denounce them as bigots for...their sexual orientation making them incapable of either...Which is basically just a form of rape by coercion on a national scale.
IE to the Tradcons in this thread, make no mistake. The L, the G and the B have been put under the same knife the rest of us have by the T and in their case, the blade's already drawing blood.
Dear God yes...Thanks for coming into this thread Gladiator, your insights are always appreciated.
LindyAF
Well-known member
See, this is kind of what I'm talking about? Not exactly the issue I said earlier, but right-wingers tend to end up hanging out and associating with other right-wingers, even if they don't necessarily consciously know it.
I don't doubt there are anti-trans lesbians, and enough that if you're focusing on them or mostly interacting with that subset, it'd seem like the group at large. But OTOH... at least according to my trivial internet search skills, the vast majority of gay activist groups, including lesbian ones, are pro-trans. Like, pretty much every single one that's not officially right-wing (a tiny minority of them) or TERF (an even smaller minority).
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
"If the religious conservatives that form an enormous part of the right would just abandon the idea that moral law is set by God, there wouldn't be much keeping LGBs from moving to the right."
Says the secularist.
I've got news for you pal, most marriages are held in churches, not courthouses. Even for those who aren't serious believers, it's still seen as a thing with religious meaning.
And for a minimum of tens of millions of Americans, marriage is a religious institution first and foremost, the legal aspects being far less important.
Your continual refusal to try to understand the thought processes of others does you no favors, and is an active impedement to an actual political coalition. Your flagrant hypocrisy makes you abrasive on top of it.
Wow, don't cut yourself on all the fundie edge.
The simple fact is you and those who want to reverse same-sex marriage are not going to accomplish your goals, and you look like fools for trying to fight a battle you already lost.
I do not have any hard data on this, only the exit polls from 2016 (the 2020 exit polls are worthless because of the election fraud that occurred).
I am speaking about what I have seen among people like Richard Grenell, who was the first gay cabinet member in US history, and among right leaning LGBs on social media. Trump championed the 'Fight to decriminalize homosexuality' with Grenell leading the charge, and it was one of the policies that definitely made Trump and the Right more popular with LGBs.
Really, the only places I see people wanting to actively reverse same-sex marriage (as opposed to simply dissaproving of it) are among the fringe of Right, and I see a lot of people on the Right appealing to LGBs via the 2nd Amendment. Gays with guns don't get bashed nearly as much, after all.
Edit: When you get right down to it, the 2nd Amendment and trying to protect it is one of the big things the Right and many LGBs have in common.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
If this is true then our ‘tilting at windmills’ shouldn’t be any threat to you. Yet you say our hostility to your mockery of our sacred things is the reason for not working with us.
Which is it? The one cancels the other.
See this is why my instinct is to say to hell with them, they are incapable of acting as good faith allies.
Largo
Well-known member
As far as I can tell the only suggested restriction was not being free to adopt, so... not being able to groom kids is just as bad as being in jail for trans?
This means that if I was trans, I couldn't go to a movie theater, or a park, or a store, or anywhere where I can be near a kid.. It should be noted that such restrictions for actually convicted pedophiles (as opposed to someone who is just supposedly more likely to perform such actions) mean that they do end up essentially living under bridges, which I do think is unjust.
I have said that continuing to fight this battle only burns political capital, gives the Dems 'boogieman' about the Right wanting to repeal same-sex marriage legitimacy, could drive right leaning LGBs to simply vote third party, and does damage to the coalition Trump built.
A coaltion the Right will need if it ever wants national level power again, assuming the elections process ever gets cleaned up.
There are many places LGBs and even more traditional members of the Right can work together and agree on. 2nd Amendment protections for gun owners, China fucking with all of us, immigration reform (the Right's version, not the Dems illegal immigrant amnesty bullshit), and cutting down on gov red tape are all areas that can be common ground.
I am not saying you have to approve of same-sex marriage, not at all; I am saying that actively talking about wanting to repeal it or use political forces against the rights LGBs have now is absolutely counterproductive to pretty much all the other issues/goals the Right have on their platform.
And people with serious mental illness. You dishonest clown.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
Surrendering to your definition of terms is not on the table. What is so difficult to understand about this? ‘Winning elections’ insufficient reason for me to sacrifice a pinch of incense to the genius of the Emperor with New Clothes.
I will not deny My Lord to save your feelings. Get the fuck over yourself. I know how to live as a dissident and am prepared for being driven to the catacombs and embracing martyrdom rather than compromise on this.
If the Reds comes for you lot, why should I care if the Revolution eats its own?
Imagine threatening Christians with ostracazation lol.
Y'all do your best work in the dark.