Validity of Left-Right Divide Concerns

GoldRanger said:

Please don't derail the thread. I happen to agree with Xilizhra on abortion, but if we turn this into a multi-post debate on abortion it's not going to end any time soon, and the mods will just move everything to a separate thread. And we've already debated this to death in other threads as is.

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Right. Maybe I'll make a topic about it... someday... as I do think it is both valid, important and interesting discussion (we had it once on uni, and I had a blast).

Anyway, onto topic... personally I would say that there is less of a Left-Right divide than Extreme Left - Center divide. But that is just my 2c. As for concerns about the divide, it is definitely something to be concerned about as the divide, it seems to me, is largely psychological - in majority of my discussions with people on the Left, I invariably had that nagging feeling that we are, almost literally, talking past each other - simply not getting the point across. So the first thing to do to bridge the divide would be to find a language both sides understand. Second thing would be for Left to give concessions - because so far, it is Left always attacking and Right always retreating, as Right nowadays is Conservatism instead of Traditionalism. Which means that compromise does not work, because compromise - in current culture - is basically Left always winning.

Aldarion said:

Right. Maybe I'll make a topic about it... someday... as I do think it is both valid, important and interesting discussion (we had it once on uni, and I had a blast).

Anyway, onto topic... personally I would say that there is less of a Left-Right divide than Extreme Left - Center divide. But that is just my 2c. As for concerns about the divide, it is definitely something to be concerned about as the divide, it seems to me, is largely psychological - in majority of my discussions with people on the Left, I invariably had that nagging feeling that we are, almost literally, talking past each other - simply not getting the point across. So the first thing to do to bridge the divide would be to find a language both sides understand. Second thing would be for Left to give concessions - because so far, it is Left always attacking and Right always retreating, as Right nowadays is Conservatism instead of Traditionalism. Which means that compromise does not work, because compromise - in current culture - is basically Left always winning.

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@Xilizhra see that? I asked him to stop derailing the thread, he agreed, and we can have a discussion later. On SB he either would have been reported and instantly hit with something like "debating in bad faith" or similar, or dogpiled to death with tacit mod approval, and any attempt at rebuttal infracted. I don't even want to know what could have happened on SV (possibly doxxed just for his views). But scary fascist Sietch site, right?

I personally feel like the left right split is a very innacurate picture of how politics works



yeah bringing out the triangle again....


You have 3 core values

Equality

Liberty

and Franternity - AKA stability


These are core values they are the fundamental make up of who you are as a person. And different people value different things, and like it or not these values are mutually exclusive.

You want more equality your going to have to sacerfice a level of liberty and stability to get it.
You want Liberty your going to have to sacerfice a level of stability and equality to get it.
You want stability the same issue.

Different people value different things and this fight has been going on for hundreds upon hundreds of years. Now traditionally these core values have been balanced, with different societies picking and choosing different trade offs, because when ever you hit the extreme end of a triangle shit goes bad.


communism murdered over a 100 million people, despotic leaders have murdered people, and pure Anarchy doesn't work.

The problem with the modern day left is that their entirely focused on the equality side of the spectrum, lie about the fact that there will be trade offs and conquences for their position, and spew venom at any one who disagrees with their values. Currently they have a whole lot of power.

But and I say this to all left wingers.

There will be balance, the other two core values are important and they will have their place in any human society and there will be balance weather you like it or not.

Xilizhra said:

3. That depends entirely on who is willing to concede that the other side isn't a bunch of faceless monsters and is, in fact, possessed of valid concerns even if one doesn't like how they're being addressed.

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That really depends on what issues we're talking about and what "concerns" the other side is expressing. I really don't believe that there's any sort of valid concern behind homophobia and transphobia, for example.

ShadowArxxy said:

That really depends on what issues we're talking about and what "concerns" the other side is expressing. I really don't believe that there's any sort of valid concern behind homophobia and transphobia, for example.

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What would homophobia and transphobia be defined as though? For instance i don't have any problem with what adam and steve do in private. However i do have a problem with watching a youngboy have money stuffed in his thong by a crowd of slaneshi cultists.

I don't have a problem with a mature adult having a medical procedure to feel more comfortable in their body. I do have a problem with dragtime story hour and how children who would eat cake and icecream for dinner can now decide to take powerful drugs and decide to have irreversible surgeries.With their school guidance counselor and recently divorced bitter mom whispering in their ears the whole time of course. These beliefs have been called 'hate' and 'bigotry' numerous times but they seem like valid concerns to me.

p.s. Im a bit sleepy so apologies if im not coming across clearly

Sir 1000 said:

What would homophobia and transphobia be defined as though? For instance i don't have any problem with what adam and steve do in private. However i do have a problem with watching a youngboy have money stuffed in his thong by a crowd of slaneshi cultists.

I don't have a problem with a mature adult having a medical procedure to feel more comfortable in their body. I do have a problem with dragtime story hour and how children who would eat cake and icecream for dinner can now decide to take powerful drugs and decide to have irreversible surgeries.With their school guidance counselor and recently divorced bitter mom whispering in their ears the whole time of course. These beliefs have been called 'hate' and 'bigotry' numerous times but they seem like valid concerns to me.

p.s. Im a bit sleepy so apologies if im not coming across clearly

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Given this is a thing....I can understand why even Trans would be wary of actually transitioning

CarlManvers2019 said:

Woman who regrets transitioning to male is suing clinic after 'rushed' treatment

Keira went through reassignment surgery aged 20.

metro.co.uk

Given this is a thing....I can understand why even Trans would be wary of actually transitioning

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Yeah i was thinking about those when i typed that but i'm too lazy and tired to post links

Rocinante said:

The left is responsible for over 100 days in a row of violent riots.

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I can say from firsthand observations as a security officer here in Portland -- that only a handful of the ongoing days of protests have qualified as "violent riots". So it is completely inaccurate to claim that there have been "over 100 days in a row of violent riots". There have been over a hundred days in a row of protests, out of which about a dozen days have escalated to low-level rioting.

ShadowArxxy said:

I can say from firsthand observations as a security officer here in Portland -- that only a handful of the ongoing days of protests have qualified as "violent riots". So it is completely inaccurate to claim that there have been "over 100 days in a row of violent riots". There have been over a hundred days in a row of protests, out of which about a dozen days have escalated to low-level rioting.

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This is the standard "only a minority are rioters" defense. It doesn't matter that it's a minority if they still inflict billions in property damages, end lives and livelihoods, and the Democrats and BLM as a whole take great pains to protect them instead of denouncing them. It's like saying only a minority of Germans were Nazi party members, so Nazi Germany would have been totes a fine place to live.

Sir 1000 said:

I do have a problem with dragtime story hour and how children who would eat cake and icecream for dinner can now decide to take powerful drugs and decide to have irreversible surgeries.With their school guidance counselor and recently divorced bitter mom whispering in their ears the whole time of course.

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That is not how transitioning works.

You cannot have irreversible surgery while still a small child. I've heard this claimed over and over again, but not only does it go against the explicit clinical guidelines, no one can actually name a case of it happening, much less statistically significant examples.

What the clinical guidelines allow is fully reversible treatment for post-adolescent children under the strict monitoring and guidance of a licensed mental health care professional, which may escalate to partially reversible hormone therapy no younger than sixteen, again under strict monitoring and guidance from a licensed mental health care professional.

Even a full-fledged adult cannot "just decide" to transition. Medical transition is only available under the guidance of licensed health care professionals, and the system is massively biased towards convincing people not to transition. There are cases of people detransitioning, but these are an incredibly rare exception case. You know how it's super commonly argued that society shouldn't even minimally accommodate trans people because we're a small minority? Why then should detransitioners, who are at best an even tinier fraction out of that tiny fraction, be considered at all?

GoldRanger said:

This is the standard "only a minority are rioters" defense. It doesn't matter that it's a minority if they still inflict billions in property damages, end lives and livelihoods, and the Democrats and BLM as a whole take great pains to protect them instead of denouncing them. It's like saying only a minority of Germans were Nazi party members, so Nazi Germany would have been totes a fine place to live.

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No, this is me saying from firsthand observation that "hundreds of days of violent rioting" is an inaccurate characterization of what's going on in Portland. Because I care about truth and facts, not because I'm "defending the rioters". Moreover, there *has* been an actually distinct line between the unambiguously peaceful protests that have been occurring in the mid-to-late evenings, and the more aggressive and vocal protests that happen at night, and even then, it is in fact true that only a small number of the night protesters are actually rioting.

"Billions in property damage" is a hysterical exaggeration. The City of Portland has only logged several hundred thousand dollars of property damage, and total costs around $10 million, almost all of which is simply police overtime pay. Their "estimate" of another five million-ish in private property damage is by their own admission a complete guess, and is a rough projection of the cost of closed businesses -- except those businesses are closed because of COVID, not because of the protests. They're boarded up because of the protests, yes, quite a bit of window breaking vandalism has happened, but that's not why they're not doing business.

There's an argument that this *is* legitimately a form of damage to the city, incurring costs that would not otherwise be incurred, but it's not multiple billions any way you slice it.

ShadowArxxy said:

No, this is me saying from firsthand observation that "hundreds of days of violent rioting" is an inaccurate characterization of what's going on in Portland. Because I care about truth and facts, not because I'm "defending the rioters". Moreover, there *has* been an actually distinct line between the unambiguously peaceful protests that have been occurring in the mid-to-late evenings, and the more aggressive and vocal protests that happen at night, and even then, it is in fact true that only a small number of the night protesters are actually rioting.

"Billions in property damage" is a hysterical exaggeration. The City of Portland has only logged several hundred thousand dollars of property damage, and total costs around $10 million, almost all of which is simply police overtime pay. Their "estimate" of another five million-ish in private property damage is by their own admission a complete guess, and is a rough projection of the cost of closed businesses -- except those businesses are closed because of COVID, not because of the protests. They're boarded up because of the protests, yes, quite a bit of window breaking vandalism has happened, but that's not why they're not doing business.

There's an argument that this *is* legitimately a form of damage to the city, incurring costs that would not otherwise be incurred, but it's not multiple billions any way you slice it.

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When there wasn't rioting in Portland, there was in Seattle, NYC, Minneapolis, etc.

We are looking at the country as a whole.

Those of us who followed this stuff over the "summer or love," woke up to new riot footage..Every. Single. Day. For 100 days.

Then we turned on the news and watched the media call it "mostly peaceful" and claim that antifa is a myth. We watched the left and media refuse to condemn this. Refused to even acknowledge it. We watched hundreds of rioters be released with charges dropped, while people just pretended this didn't happen.. Yet the proof was right there in front of our faces.

This is like claiming a murderer was mostly peaceful because he spent 23 hours in his day not murdering someone.

ShadowArxxy said:

That is not how transitioning works.

You cannot have irreversible surgery while still a small child. I've heard this claimed over and over again, but not only does it go against the explicit clinical guidelines, no one can actually name a case of it happening.

What the clinical guidelines allow is fully reversible treatment for post-adolescent children under the strict monitoring and guidance of a licensed mental health care professional, which may escalate to partially reversible hormone therapy no younger than sixteen, again under strict monitoring and guidance from a licensed mental health care professional.

Even a full adult cannot "just decide" to transition. Even limited, hormone-only medical transition is only available under the guidance of licensed health care professionals, and the system is massively biased towards convincing people not to transition. There are cases of people detransitioning, but these are an incredibly rare exception case. You know how it's super commonly argued that society shouldn't even minimally accommodate trans people because we're a small minority? Why then should detransitioners, who are at best an even tinier fraction out of that tiny fraction, be considered at all?

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I should have added a 'and then' to that part about surgeries. Though the drugs is spot on unfortunately fam.
I'm not really sure what you're point is with the last paragraph?

ShadowArxxy said:

No, this is me saying from firsthand observation that "hundreds of days of violent rioting" is an inaccurate characterization of what's going on in Portland. Because I care about truth and facts, not because I'm "defending the rioters". Moreover, there *has* been an actually distinct line between the unambiguously peaceful protests that have been occurring in the mid-to-late evenings, and the more aggressive and vocal protests that happen at night, and even then, it is in fact true that only a small number of the night protesters are actually rioting.

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Oh, cool. So the DAs are NOT covering for rioters then, right? BLM has unequivocally condemned the violence from their own side, right? The damage and loss of life from the riots can be discounted because they are not consecutive, or not the majority, or because there's a clear distinction (according to your subjective opinion, let's not forget, even if you are a first-hand witness to some of them) between them and peaceful protesters? There has not been extensive organization that included tactics like leaving "innocuous" piles of bricks in the protester's path? What about protests that "only" harassed and threatened people, without engaging in physical violence? Does damage to vehicles count in your assessment as a riot, or as a "peaceful protest"?

Your observations honestly don't amount to much. Most of the protesters in Charlottesville by that metric were perfectly peaceful too.

"Billions in property damage" is a hysterical exaggeration. The City of Portland has only logged several hundred thousand dollars of property damage, and total costs around $10 million, almost all of which is simply police overtime pay. Their "estimate" of another five million-ish in private property damage is by their own admission a complete guess, and is a rough projection of the cost of closed businesses -- except those businesses are closed because of COVID, not because of the protests. They're boarded up because of the protests, yes, quite a bit of window breaking vandalism has happened, but that's not why they're not doing business.

There's an argument that this *is* legitimately a form of damage to the city, incurring costs that would not otherwise be incurred, but it's not multiple billions any way you slice it.

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I meant multiple billions country-wide, but I'll bite: Do you have sources for these numbers, or is it a he said she said deal?

Sir 1000 said:

I should have added a 'and then' to that part about surgeries. Though the drugs is spot on unfortunately fam.

New California Law Allows Children to Get Transgender Treatments Without Parental Consent

A new law recently passed in California allows children as young as 12 years old to receive taxpayer-funded transgender treatments and services, without parental consent.

townhall.com

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That's following the recognized medical protocol, which again, is very different than is claimed. The claims are exaggerated fearmongering for the specific purpose of soliciting outrage and getting conservatives to adopt anti-trans positions without any consideration of the actual facts.

Look up and read the actual law that the article mentions.

1. It specifically applies to minors and nonminors in state sponsored foster care.

2. It states that they have the right to be "involved in the development of case plan elements elements related to placement and gender affirming health care", as a specific clarification of existing law stating that all fosters have the right to be involved in their own case plans and placement plans. In both the existing law and the new law, it says that they get a say in the process, not that they have the only say or even the final say.

3. The article cites the "American College of Pediatricians", which is a fringe group with only a few hundred members. The actual professional group for American pediatricians is the American Academy of Pediatrics, which in fact endorses access to medical transition treatment.

I'm not really sure what you're point is with the last paragraph?

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The point is that even adults, much less children, cannot just "up and decide to get a sex change" as claimed.

Rocinante said:

When there wasn't rioting in Portland, there was in Seattle, NYC, Minneapolis, etc.

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Portland has been specifically pointed at, even by President Trump himself.

Portland is also where I live and where I have firsthand experience. I responded with my firsthand observations of fact specifically because even if your assertions about the media are correct, I believe I can trust my own eyes.

We are looking at the country as a whole. Those of us who followed this stuff over the "summer or love," woke up to new riot footage..Every. Single. Day. For 100 days.

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That's not firsthand, and apparently, you only distrust the media when it's saying things that you don't agree with. That's not a consistent standard.

We watched the left and media refuse to condemn this. Refused to even acknowledge it. We watched hundreds of rioters be released with charges dropped, while people just pretended this didn't happen.. Yet the proof was right there in front of our faces.

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You keep switching back and forth between specifics and generalities, without offering evidence for either. I don't find this a particularly convincing way to argue.

ShadowArxxy said:

That's not firsthand, and apparently, you only distrust the media when it's saying things that you don't agree with. That's not a consistent standard.

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There's actually a lot of footage circulating on the internet that the mainstream media has never shown, that goes completely against the narrative of "peaceful protests". In that sense, yes, the media can't be trusted. Video evidence, however, is another matter.

Also, you keep saying that you have first hand experience. That's not nearly as valuable as you think it is. You have not been to every single protest in every single day of these past few months.

ShadowArxxy said:

Portland has been specifically pointed at, even by President Trump himself.

Portland is also where I live and where I have firsthand experience. I responded with my firsthand observations of fact specifically because even if your assertions about the media are correct, I believe I can trust my own eyes.



That's not firsthand, and apparently, you only distrust the media when it's saying things that you don't agree with. That's not a consistent standard.



You keep switching back and forth between specifics and generalities, without offering evidence for either. I don't find this a particularly convincing way to argue.

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I'm not Donald Trump.

My proof is the hundreds of fucking videos I watched over the summer of people being assaulted, property being destroyed and buildings being burned.

If you want to close your eyes and pretend that footage doesn't exist, that is on you, but all summer I was able to log into live streams and WATCH IT LIVE WITH MY OWN EYES.

GoldRanger said:

There's actually a lot of footage circulating on the internet that the mainstream media has never shown, that goes completely against the narrative of "peaceful protests". In that sense, yes, the media can't be trusted. Video evidence, however, is another matter.

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Video evidence doesn't always give the full and proper context, nor does it show the entire scope of an event. Neither does mine or anyone else's firsthand observations, true, but that criticism applies to all comers.

Also, you keep saying that you have first hand experience. That's not nearly as valuable as you think it is. You have not been to every single protest in every single day of these past few months.

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I can trust that I'm not lying about what I'm seeing firsthand. And given that I'm a security officer who actually has to deal with the protests professionally, I have a pretty good idea what's going on, and I have in fact personally observed a solid majority of the protests -- five nights a week for every week since they started.

ShadowArxxy said:

Video evidence doesn't always give the full and proper context, nor does it show the entire scope of an event. Neither does mine or anyone else's firsthand observations, true, but that criticism applies to all comers.



I can trust that I'm not lying about what I'm seeing firsthand. And given that I'm a security officer who actually has to deal with the protests professionally, I have a pretty good idea what's going on, and I have in fact personally observed a solid majority of the protests -- five nights a week for every week of the past few months.

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Again, there's more than one city.

But keep pretending we are all only talking about Portland.