Your Political Beliefs

[GoldRanger]

So, someone should be able to pass off the consequences of their actions by killing another lifeform, and denying a potential human being the opportunity to live their own life?

If that lifeform is a very simple and unthinking one, sure, why not. Life doesn't have a value of its own, it's just a carbon-based evolution-designes machine. What matters, in my view, is conscious thought. Different animals have differing levels of consciousness, but a fetus doesn't.

And a potential human being is not an actual human being. Technically I kill off billions of potential human beings with every ejaculation, even if pregnancy occurs only a single sperm out of those billions gets to become an actual human being, and the rest are gone. Should I be considered a mass murderer for that?

As long as the potential isn't actualized I don't see any reason to fret over it.

The woman, in the meantime, is an actual, conscious being that is capable of suffering. The woman's need should come first, over a thousand fetuses if necessary.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

If that lifeform is a very simple and unthinking one, sure, why not. Life doesn't have a value of its own, it's just a carbon-based evolution-designes machine. What matters, in my view, is conscious thought. Different animals have differing levels of consciousness, but a fetus doesn't.

And a potential human being is not an actual human being. Technically I kill off billions of potential human beings with every ejaculation, even if pregnancy occurs only a single sperm out of those billions gets to become an actual human being, and the rest are gone. Should I be considered a mass murderer for that?

As long as the potential isn't actualized I don't see any reason to fret over it.

The woman, in the meantime, is an actual, conscious being that is capable of suffering. The woman's need should come first, over a thousand fetuses if necessary.

Actually research as shown that fetuses do react to external stimuli, so I am pretty sure they do have a level of consciousness, so your argument moots itself. By your own argument you shouldn't support abortion then.

I am pretty sure that is taking an argument to the absurd, and since no one would make that argument except lunatics we don't need to bother about that. And I wouldn't count sperm and egg cells as being potential humans yet, because they haven't reached a certain level of potentiality, they are still a few orders behind that. Potential Potential Humans, or Potential Potential Potential Humans. Or I could alternatively argue that human life hasn't taken hold yet, the sperm and egg need to meet.

The Fetus is capable of suffering too, and definitely suffers as it is stabbed, hacked apart, etc so you would support the suffering of thousands for the selfish whims of one?

 

[GoldRanger]

Actually research as shown that fetuses do react to external stimuli, so I am pretty sure they do have a level of consciousness, so your argument moots itself. By your own argument you shouldn't support abortion then.

I don't think reaction to stimuli is enough to establish anything even approaching consciousness. My smartphone also reacts to external stimuli. A houseplant also reacts to external stimuli.

I am pretty sure that is taking an argument to the absurd, and since no one would make that argument except lunatics we don't need to bother about that. And I wouldn't count sperm and egg cells as being potential humans yet, because they haven't reached a certain level of potentiality, they are still a few orders behind that.

I don't consider it absurd at all. I honestly and seriously don't think the difference between a sperm and an early stage fetus is significant, certainly not compared to the difference between that fetus and a baby.

Your definition of what potentiality is sufficient is arbitrary. To me, a fetus is a few orders behind that, and a sperm even farther.

The Fetus is capable of suffering too, and definitely suffers as it is stabbed, hacked apart, etc so you would support the suffering of thousands for the selfish whims of one?

You did not establish that an early stage fetus can suffer, certainly not on the level of a conscious human being. If I am willing to kill thousands of insects for much less of an inconvenience than an unwanted fucking child (and I definitely am, seeing as I use the services of an exterminator at least once a year), then I can definitely kill a lifeform that is even less developed and cannot even function independently, unlike an insect.

I feel like our argument is going in circles, so I will respectfully withdraw

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I feel like our argument is going in circles, so I will respectfully withdraw

As will I, since it would only be fair to do so as well, and I agree it will go in circles. So perhaps we can discuss something else, and if you like spin off a better topic from our discussion that might be more fruitful?

 

[Sailor.X]

Doesn't that mean you throw a massive tantrum when forced to choose? Because I remember the Bendu doing just that. Or is your metaphor referring not to the Antler guy, but the Bendu Order?

The Bendu order sport.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

The Bendu order sport.

Ah, best Bendu then, and not the guy who got enuff dakka'd by Thrawn.

 

[Chaos Marine]

I used to be pretty left leaning, almost cringingly so but I've come to see how following along blindly to one side can lead to some dangerous presidents.

As I'm growing older I'm finding myself swinging a little bit more to right but I'm still largely a centrist as in I'm pro-choice (to a degree, within the first month or two and only after should it pose a risk to the mother), I'm pro LGBT and I used to be ardently against any form of religion which I've slackened off on. Though there are some religions that I think are completely antithetical to progressive, western values such as the Islam and it is in dire need of a reform. Smaller governments are better and encouraging governments to take more and more responsibility for people tend to want more and more control and therefore more and more money/taxes that it can strangle the personal freedoms and choices of it's citizens.

Typically, I'm you should be allowed to whatever you like so long as you don't take a choice from someone else unless they consent to do so and what you're doing involves choices from people of legal age where applicable.

Paedophilia or advocating for it should be treated no differently than calls for violence as the end result causes harm just like a call to violence.

In terms of guns:

Though I don't think I could ever actually kill someone with one, even if I might be killed.

Nothing should be beyond being made fun or satire though it is important to read the room and the potential audience, if a joke offends you, so what? Either throw a hissyfit or grow up and realize that other people aren't you and they aren't beholden to your views.

Nationalism isn't bad nor is the patriotic love of your country. When you go to excess, yes but anything taken to excess is bad.

 

[GoldRanger]

As will I, since it would only be fair to do so as well, and I agree it will go in circles. So perhaps we can discuss something else, and if you like spin off a better topic from our discussion that might be more fruitful?

Maybe we can discuss the falling fertility rates in the West, and people (mostly on the left wing) increasingly buying into the belief/philosophy that having even one child is immoral for one reason or another?

In my opinion both phenomena are catastrophies.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Maybe we can discuss the falling fertility rates in the West, and people (mostly on the left wing) increasingly buying into the belief/philosophy that having even one child is immoral for one reason or another?

In my opinion both phenomena are catastrophies.

Indeed they are catastrophes. and I would blame the first in part due to our narcissistic consumer culture that prioritizes self-indulgence over anything of value, and in part on the second. That is anti-natalism, which is the philosophy to which you refer, which really, I am not sure how to unpack. And where we can even start.

 

[GoldRanger]

Indeed they are catastrophes. and I would blame the first in part due to our narcissistic consumer culture that prioritizes self-indulgence over anything of value, and in part on the second. That is anti-natalism, which is the philosophy to which you refer, which really, I am not sure how to unpack. And where we can even start.

Part of it is also an IMO incorrect approach to environmentalism that values the reduction of one's personal carbon footprint, instead of trying to drive innovation in governments and companies to reduce pollution.

People are guilted into not having any more children because they don't want to create more consumers, and they are under the illusion that the world is overpopulated (which it isn't by a long shot yet).

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Part of it is also an IMO incorrect approach to environmentalism that values the reduction of one's personal carbon footprint, instead of trying to drive innovation in governments and companies to reduce pollution.

People are guilted into not having any more children because they don't want to create more consumers, and they are under the illusion that the world is overpopulated (which it isn't by a long shot yet).

I can understand that, rather than actually do something, they take the lazy road out.

And I wonder if in part this belief of overpopulation came from all that dystopian fiction?

 

[GoldRanger]

I can understand that, rather than actually do something, they take the lazy road out.

And I wonder if in part this belief of overpopulation came from all that dystopian fiction?

It's possible. It's also the result of unceasing green/environmentalist propaganda and scaremongering campaign that lasted for decades.

Granted, anthropomorphic climate change is a real phenomenon (I trust the people with the actual credentials to determine that. And they did), but I feel it has been hijacked by politics and has been used for virtue signalling for too long, without regard to whether there is an actual net benefit to the planet from the proposed action or not (see hybrid cars with toxic batteries).

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

It's possible. It's also the result of unceasing green/environmentalist propaganda and scaremongering campaign that lasted for decades.

Granted, anthropomorphic climate change is a real phenomenon (I trust the people with the actual credentials to determine that. And they did), but I feel it has been hijacked by politics and has been used for virtue signalling for too long, without regard to whether there is an actual net benefit to the planet from the proposed action or not (see hybrid cars with toxic batteries).

I wonder if the proponents even believe it? I look at those talking heads and I see reckless waste from those who are supposedly against it.

 

[Big Steve]

I have an acquaintance who's remarked about stuff like that. People who still consume and then ease their conscience by haranguing others about ecological matters. And that if you don't play good doormat being enlightened by your betters they get viciously hostile since you're denying them the satisfaction of having "done something" about the problem.

 

[Cherico]

My political beliefts can more or less be summed up in two words.


Fuck off.

That isn't an insult to any one by the way, my goal is a system where people are mostly left in peace with out control freaks or assholes intruding on your private spear and telling you how to live your life. To this end the goal is to create checks and balances to limit the power of the government, corperations, unions, religious groups, policial action groups, activists and every one else so that no one has enough power to go crazy and fuck over every one else.

 

[clancyphile]

I'll lay mine out:

Economic Issues
I am generally pro-free market. I was skeptical of the case against Microsoft - and still am. As for Google/Facebook/Apple, I Think there is a much better case. Two things motivate on that: 1. Google and Apple's actions against Gab, a clear competitor to Twitter; 2. Facebook and Google acting more as publishers and not platforms.

On taxes, I want (ideally) a flat income tax. I don't buy the FAIR tax.

I favor tariffs in a number of cases - was against them, but my thinking has shifted a bit. I also favor the Import-Export bank - other countries have similar institutions, and I am against unilateral disarmament.

Social Issues
Generally a live-and-let-live type. Did not like the use of the Supreme Court to overturn 31 state amendments on marriage (people need to rule where the Constitution is silent). On abortion, pro-life (allow exceptions for rape, incest, and life of the mother), but am open to putting birth control pills to OTC availability. Support the death penalty - don't like lethal injection, prefer electric chair, hanging, or borrowing the GRU's blast furnace set-up (for the most heinous cases). Back the wall and more border security, but it must be combined with aid to Latin American countries AND adjustments to legal immigration policy.

Favor repeal of most gun control laws.

Foreign Policy
I part from Trump on this for the most part. Favor working with allies, but like Trump, want them to pay their share. Consider the War on Terror against the Taliban to be a blood feud that we ought to keep fighting. Iraq is a place we need to keep a stabilizing force. North Korea... what we did in the past hasn't worked, but we should keep building up missile defense systems in region. China... treat as a potential adversary and weaken. Russia... see as a geopolitical foe, with a lot of nukes, but not much beyond that and VERY vulnerable to the price of oil and gas dropping. Iran... that genocidal regime needs to depart this realm, preferably without a ton of civilian casualties. Turkey... the Erdogan regime is no friend, and should be treated as a frenemy at best. Saudi Arabia... backwards, but trying to get closer to the 21st century.

Do subscribe to the Ledeen Doctrine, and feel the Houthi in Yemen warrant its application due to attacks on USS Mason.

Defense Policy
Spend much more, build force structure back up to at least 1989 levels - 18 active divisions in the Army, 600-ship Navy, far more combat squadrons for the Air Force, Marines get bulked back up, too. Favor independent Space Force under Department of the Air Force.

Constitutional Reform
Require that states set up legislatures to mimic structure of US Congress - House of Delegates/Representatives to reflect population, state senates to represent counties. Statewide races to go to the person who wins a majority of state legislative districts in a mini-electoral college (to include US Senate races).

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

birth control pills to OTC availability.

You know hormones don't work like magical potions in vydia, right? Like, you are aware what BCPs are?

 

[clancyphile]

You know hormones don't work like magical potions in vydia, right? Like, you are aware what BCPs are?

I am.

But Plan B has been OTC for a while now.

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

I am.

But Plan B has been OTC for a while now.

Which is an emergency BCP that doesn't cause mood swings, liver damage or blood clots. Unlike most BCPs, which most certainly would need the user to be monitored during use by a health care provider for safety reasons.

 

[Doomsought]

My political philosophy flows from one central observation: Might does no make right, but might does make law.

The potency of all laws are ultimately derived from violent enforcement, thus all law making is inherently violent. Thus we should not make laws unless violence is justified.

The central observation also separates the legal and moral arguments into separate dimensions. The law is utilitarian, while morality is idealist.