"Woke" Franchises

[Captain X]

NuBSG's Starbuck being a woman didn't hurt the character, but initially the writing and new connections to Adama and Apollo did help the character. Then the writing went downhill and severely hurt the character by making her spiral out of control into self-destruction because "drama," I'm guessing.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

Oh, I agree the HQ version of Poison Ivy was pretty human (probably too human), but her and Harley Quinn have been friends/subtextually together (and not bs english degree subtextually, I mean getting crap by the radar subtextually) since basically the beginning of Harley Quinn as a character. Like there's a comic from 1998 (I think it's Batgirl Adventures) that basically trying to say romance in every way possible while not quite saying it, and it's basically confirmed by the mini comic trilogy Harley And Ivy in 2007.

In that same show Ivy went from sleeping in the embrace of a living moving plant monster and living in a green house she had created to a normal plain bed to be with Harley. You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of my complaint with the character.

And it fits fairly well with Ivy's manhating, as it doesn't count cause Harley's a girl, and gives her another man (other than Batman) to focus hate on (Joker). And in general, I like rogue characters interacting more, so I'm all for it.

The fact that you think its manhating is kind of the problem. Ivy has a problem of dissociating from humanity and while she doesn't blame women as much as men there are all like three people she even seems to even want to like. Heck, at least the Arkham Aslyum version the only thing redeeming her is her attraction to Batman himself. Of course in that same version she tried to painfully kill catwoman for forgetting to water her plants.

But when she is with Harley its not usually played as even a connection to mankind, its often either fanservice, or her just as green crook Ivy.

 

[Abhorsen]

In that same show Ivy went from sleeping in the embrace of a living moving plant monster and living in a green house she had created to a normal plain bed to be with Harley. You seem to be misunderstanding the nature of my complaint with the character.

You seem to be misunderstanding where I'm coming from. I'm saying "Sure, maybe you didn't like the show, fair, but that's not at all when she swapped sexualities."

The question is did making her more 'diverse' improve the stories? And I'd say it did. Giving her a consistent but limited ray of humanity really helped Ivy as a character. And not including it would have hampered Harley Quinn.

The fact that you think its manhating is kind of the problem. Ivy has a problem of dissociating from humanity and while she doesn't blame women as much as men there are all like three people she even seems to even want to like. Heck, at least the Arkham Aslyum version the only thing redeeming her is her attraction to Batman himself. Of course in that same version she tried to painfully kill catwoman for forgetting to water her plants.

But when she is with Harley its not usually played as even a connection to mankind, its often either fanservice, or her just as green crook Ivy.

Um, in Batman and Harley Quinn, Ivy basically gives up on her chance to poison the world for Gaia based on her connection with Harley, so that's simply not true. Same with the Harley and Ivy miniseries.

And yes, I know Ivy hates humanity and disassociates from them, but the emphasis on the man part of that is definitely there.

As for green crook, I'm not a DC fanatic, but I've mostly only seen that with HQ:TAS (which is fine, as it's clearly in it's own world and done for comedy).

NuBSG's Starbuck being a woman didn't hurt the character, but initially the writing and new connections to Adama and Apollo did help the character. Then the writing went downhill and severely hurt the character by making her spiral out of control into self-destruction because "drama," I'm guessing.

So basically a tossup then, I'm getting.

 

[Husky_Khan]

So basically a tossup then, I'm getting.

I feel NuBSG's Starbuck was a good character. Any flaws with her character was from the ambitious and sometimes pretentious writing of Ronald Moore and others trying to hammer in subtle modern themes into their show and foment needless amounts of character drama in everything. Starbuck had lots of trauma going on which just heaped on more and more, but so did every female character in what was like numerous multi-season long 'Break the Cutie' style arcs ending in eyeroll inducing murders and suicides to create more drama etc.

But overall Starbuck was a good character and a likable one in most respects. Beyond the constant 'trauma drama' she was cool and capable and emotionally complex and capable of having complex emotional relationships with others, at least initially before all of the trauma drama erupted. So she wasn't just a cute man with tits or whatever. And her performance rightly elevated Katee Sackoff to semi-stardom.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

You seem to be misunderstanding where I'm coming from. I'm saying "Sure, maybe you didn't like the show, fair, but that's not at all when she swapped sexualities."

Oh I get that. I just didn't think it had anything to do with the point I was making. And I never said I hated the show. Nor did I question when she swapped sexualities....Which is kind of a weird statement, I'm not sure she swapped anything? Unless you are referring to really old Ivy Lore I am not familiar with.

The question is did making her more 'diverse' improve the stories? And I'd say it did. Giving her a consistent but limited ray of humanity really helped Ivy as a character. And not including it would have hampered Harley Quinn.

And I disagreed specifically in Ivy's case in the end most of Batman's rogue gallery can be argued to have two different interpretations. The misaligned crazy but with various levels of sympathy character that is altered or shaped by some past tragedy, or the colorful costumed crook that kind of treats being a villain to batman as a job. HQ is much more the latter, while Ivy is the former. And while its perfectly legimate to treat Ivy as the latter, I prefer the former.

Um, in Batman and Harley Quinn, Ivy basically gives up on her chance to poison the world for Gaia based on her connection with Harley, so that's simply not true. Same with the Harley and Ivy miniseries.

And how was that whole scene treated? Look at the difference between Ivy's sacrifice in AA and the funny puppy dog eyes scene in that movie. That scene is perfect for HQ, its not so perfect for Ivy.

And yes, I know Ivy hates humanity and disassociates from them, but the emphasis on the man part of that is definitely there.

This all comes down to matters of opinion really. Is it worse to hate something, or not care about its existence at all? Most women might as well not be alive to most interpretations of Ivy. At least when its not crook ivy that cares about women having power.

As for green crook, I'm not a DC fanatic, but I've mostly only seen that with HQ:TAS (which is fine, as it's clearly in it's own world and done for comedy).

I mean I get that and its valid to do so. But then understand some Ivy fans don't like the comedic tone for that reason. Honestly its the same way with a lot of Batman's villains. People hated it when Mr Freeze had a origin change in the nu52 that made him more of a blue colored ice themed crook as opposed to the tragic scientist of Bruce Timm's version.

 

[Culsu]

Alright, so I finally was able to watch Critical Role - The Legend of Vox Machina on Amazon Prime (solid show, solid animation, by the way), and thought to myself "Hey, why not get back to their 3rd Campaign?"

Solid narration, solid production of the table, great character work by the team - and they start introducing their characters with their fuckin' pronouns. Urgh! Major immersion breaker there. I mean, official D&D and Pathfinder have become increasingly woke these past years, but pronouns? Really?!?

 

[Abhorsen]

Oh I get that. I just didn't think it had anything to do with the point I was making. And I never said I hated the show. Nor did I question when she swapped sexualities....Which is kind of a weird statement, I'm not sure she swapped anything? Unless you are referring to really old Ivy Lore I am not familiar with.

Okay, we seem to be talking past one another, sorry about that.

So the original incarnation of Ivy was straight (at least by default), introduced in 1966 according to wikipedia. After Harley Quinn was introduced in Batman: TAS, they became friends in the episode Harley and Ivy, continued the friendship in the sequel series New Batman Adventures, then subtext started by at least 1998 that they were more than friends.

That's what I'm talking about with a change in sexuality. Adding "Oh, this character's bisexual" 30 years after creation is a sudden change towards 'representation'.

And apparently we disagree if it was for the better, which is fine, but at the very least, I think we can agree that it was done for story and character reasons, not just scoring woke points.

Ultimately, that's something I'm interested in finding: times when they made an established character 'more diverse' or such, but it made for a more interesting story, or baring that, was at least for story reasons.

Honestly, from looking at what I've seen, it seems that it used to be done sometimes well, but now is never good. Hopefully, though, the list might be useful in talking with people with just a foot on the woke train: point out that sure, it can be handled well, but none of the recent examples do the characters justice.

This all comes down to matters of opinion really. Is it worse to hate something, or not care about its existence at all? Most women might as well not be alive to most interpretations of Ivy. At least when its not crook ivy that cares about women having power.

Huh, really good point here! I really like it on a literature level here too.

I mean I get that and its valid to do so. But then understand some Ivy fans don't like the comedic tone for that reason. Honestly its the same way with a lot of Batman's villains. People hated it when Mr Freeze had a origin change in the nu52 that made him more of a blue colored ice themed crook as opposed to the tragic scientist of Bruce Timm's version.

I do agree with this. Tragic scientist is how I grew up with Mr Freeze.

 

[Agent23]

Okay, we seem to be talking past one another, sorry about that.

So the original incarnation of Ivy was straight (at least by default), introduced in 1966 according to wikipedia. After Harley Quinn was introduced in Batman: TAS, they became friends in the episode Harley and Ivy, continued the friendship in the sequel series New Batman Adventures, then subtext started by at least 1998 that they were more than friends.

That's what I'm talking about with a change in sexuality. Adding "Oh, this character's bisexual" 30 years after creation is a sudden change towards 'representation'.

And apparently we disagree if it was for the better, which is fine, but at the very least, I think we can agree that it was done for story and character reasons, not just scoring woke points.

Ultimately, that's something I'm interested in finding: times when they made an established character 'more diverse' or such, but it made for a more interesting story, or baring that, was at least for story reasons.

Honestly, from looking at what I've seen, it seems that it used to be done sometimes well, but now is never good. Hopefully, though, the list might be useful in talking with people with just a foot on the woke train: point out that sure, it can be handled well, but none of the recent examples do the characters justice.


Huh, really good point here! I really like it on a literature level here too.


I do agree with this. Tragic scientist is how I grew up with Mr Freeze.

You are forgetting one key point, apart from scoring SJW brownie points hot lesbian action sells to the primarily male nerds:

Spoiler: Yuri is master, no nipples or other special bits

(Note, this was the least graphic example of that ship I could find, sorry if somebody considers it NSFW, will remove upon request.)

 

[Husky_Khan]

Check out the President of United Earth in Star Trek Discovery!



I'm literally shaking as I type this... I was crying so much when I saw the ending (On YouTube because I don't watch this piece of shit series) but it finally makes me proud to be Human. Oh my gosh... my heart is like pounding hot and yet I'm feeling chills at the same time. This is so amazing and I was just in awe at how the people at Paramount managed to bring this all together. It's so beautiful and relevant to today. I can't wait to see how much she won the election for United Earth by.

Star Trek: Discovery Makes Democrat Stacey Abrams President Of United Earth As She Campaigns For Governor Of Georgia

Democrat and Georgia gubernatorial candidate Stacey Abrams made a special guest appearance in the season 4 finale of ‘Star Trek: Discovery' as the President of United Earth.

boundingintocomics.com

My favorite part was when President Abrams of United Earth said "Nothing to discuss" and then unhinged her jaws and swallowed the Federation President whole and after burping said "United Earth is ready right now to be the Federation!"

Finally, dignity and honor back in the office of the Federation President!

 

[nemo1986]

Well its the closest she will ever get to becoming president of something.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Well its the closest she will ever get to becoming president of something.

Only took a thousand years and the collapse of galactic civilization.

 

[nemo1986]

Only took a thousand years and the collapse of galactic civilization.

Also, it looks like even in the future the obesity epidemic carries on.

 

[prinCZess]

...Star Trek Discovery has been on four seasons already?

Covid-dilithium* time-dilation bullshit is apparently a thing, because I feel like it hasn't been around very long...While simultaneously being around longer than anyone really wants it to be.

*(Dilithium is the time-travel thing in Star Trek right? This is pushing my ST lore knowledge to the absolute breaking point because it's so nearly-nonexistent)

 

[ParadiseLost]

You are forgetting one key point, apart from scoring SJW brownie points hot lesbian action sells to the primarily male nerds:

This is a good part of why you see so much lezzie stuff these days. Lesbian sex in media sells to audiences well.

 

[nemo1986]

...Star Trek Discovery has been on four seasons already?

Covid-dilithium* time-dilation bullshit is apparently a thing, because I feel like it hasn't been around very long...While simultaneously being around longer than anyone really wants it to be.

*(Dilithium is the time-travel thing in Star Trek right? This is pushing my ST lore knowledge to the absolute breaking point because it's so nearly-nonexistent)

Dilithium is a material used to regulate antimatter reaction for warp travel and general power generation on ship.

 

[Syzygy]

Also, in movies there was the turning of that one character in the recent Dune adaption into a woman. I think that helped just with character recognition for the uninitiated. The movie throws a shit ton of characters at you, and being able to recognize one consistently as 'Fremen Woman' really helps.

This was a monumentally stupid decision from nearly every perspective.

Let's have the imperial planetologist for Arrakis be black, never mind Kynes is servile to the same colonizing power the beginning oh so pointedly emphasized were colonizers. Did we mention they're despoiling the land because it's an empire hell bent on colonizing a planet of innocent natives (who will later spearhead the bloodiest holy war in the galaxy, but that's not important right now)?
Also, let's change him into a woman just because there are too many men in the cast. Sure, there's Jessica, from whom most of the story is told, and Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam who has the ear of the empire (later responsible for orchestrating the downfall of Paul's empire and the catalyst for a series of events leading to Paul's suicide), two indispensable characters hose actions shape the entire franchise's plot, but they simply aren't enough. What's more, Liet Kynes, who is now a woman, still manages to wrestle control of a deeply religious, patriarchal society and become its de facto leader. Pay no attention to the role of other women in Fremen society.
And the best part? They made the changes to Kynes knowing the extent of his role and character; show up, provide Arrakis Exposition, die.

Of all characters, this is the one they chose to genderswap and raceswap (did I mention Kynes is Gaelic?). Just holy shit. I'm still salty they removed the dinner scene too.

 

[Abhorsen]

This was a monumentally stupid decision from nearly every perspective.

Let's have the imperial planetologist for Arrakis be black, never mind Kynes is servile to the same colonizing power the beginning oh so pointedly emphasized were colonizers. Did we mention they're despoiling the land because it's an empire hell bent on colonizing a planet of innocent natives (who will later spearhead the bloodiest holy war in the galaxy, but that's not important right now)?
Also, let's change him into a woman just because there are too many men in the cast. Sure, there's Jessica, from whom most of the story is told, and Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam who has the ear of the empire (later responsible for orchestrating the downfall of Paul's empire and the catalyst for a series of events leading to Paul's suicide), two indispensable characters hose actions shape the entire franchise's plot, but they simply aren't enough. What's more, Liet Kynes, who is now a woman, still manages to wrestle control of a deeply religious, patriarchal society and become its de facto leader. Pay no attention to the role of other women in Fremen society.
And the best part? They made the changes to Kynes knowing the extent of his role and character; show up, provide Arrakis Exposition, die.

Of all characters, this is the one they chose to genderswap and raceswap (did I mention Kynes is Gaelic?). Just holy shit. I'm still salty they removed the dinner scene too.

First, Liet Kynes was half Fremen in the original. His father (who was white in graphic novels, but other than that unsure (last names aren't something to go off of especially in a space age, e.g. Leit Kyne's actress' name is Sharon Duncan-Brewster)), was sent to Arrakis, and had a kid, Liet, with a Fremen woman. So there was no race swap. Also, his father was the one who wrestled control of the society, Liet just kept it.

Second, the issue isn't having more women, but having less confusion. We already had two male Fremen men, and those got confusing for people who didn't read the books but did watch the movie (which one died, which one didn't, etc). Adding a third would have been very difficult for people to follow. Having a Fremen woman makes Liet easy to differentiate from the other Fremen.

Yeah, I am a little salty that they removed the dinner scene too, but they had to cut a bunch of stuff to wind the movie down timewise, unfortunately.


As for what's going to happen, I think they are still going to end with Paul going monstrous with the Jihad, and ultimately achieve nothing out of fear (unlike his son, who does evil but succeeds at the greater good).

 

[Agent23]

First, Liet Kynes was half Fremen in the original. His father (who was white in graphic novels, but other than that unsure (last names aren't something to go off of especially in a space age, e.g. Leit Kyne's actress' name is Sharon Duncan-Brewster)), was sent to Arrakis, and had a kid, Liet, with a Fremen woman. So there was no race swap. Also, his father was the one who wrestled control of the society, Liet just kept it.

Second, the issue isn't having more women, but having less confusion. We already had two male Fremen men, and those got confusing for people who didn't read the books but did watch the movie (which one died, which one didn't, etc). Adding a third would have been very difficult for people to follow. Having a Fremen woman makes Liet easy to differentiate from the other Fremen.

Yeah, I am a little salty that they removed the dinner scene too, but they had to cut a bunch of stuff to wind the movie down timewise, unfortunately.


As for what's going to happen, I think they are still going to end with Paul going monstrous with the Jihad, and ultimately achieve nothing out of fear (unlike his son, who does evil but succeeds at the greater good).

You mean the party in Arakeen with all the local potentates?

Also, new Dune had so much missed potential I am quite annoyed.

Kynes's death scene IIRC for example was a flashback that explained the sand trout -> worms -> spice cycle.
It would have been fun if she was to die in the desert, after fooling the Sardukar onto one of those spice precursor explosions, we could ahve had Morgan Freeman in her flashback as her father explaining a few things to her and the audience, like 1) How he got to Dune and got the Fremen's trust.
2) How spice is produced.

Also, Paul had a few character building scenes that were pretty interesting but got dropped.

Like the dialogue between him and Leto about Thufir Hawat.

And the Gom Jabbar scene, which was done worse in this one than all the other Dune movies, I mean they could have given Mohiam a lot more depth and explained more about the hidden power of the sisterhood.

They IIRC did try that by sending a Reverend Mother to tell the Baron off, but that felt very un-subtle and direct for them.

Fenring, for example, was nowhere to be seen.

 

[Syzygy]

Second, the issue isn't having more women, but having less confusion. We already had two male Fremen men, and those got confusing for people who didn't read the books but did watch the movie (which one died, which one didn't, etc). Adding a third would have been very difficult for people to follow. Having a Fremen woman makes Liet easy to differentiate from the other Fremen.

It is this I really don't understand. People having trouble distinguishing between Stilgar and Jamis is understandable, as characterization is much easier to convey in literature compared to a truncated visual medium that relies on shorthand to compensate for time. But changing Liet Kynes for the sake of audience recognition does not make sense to me. Kynes is outwardly imperial, betraying his true nature when revealing the extent of his knowledge concerning the Fremen. If memory serves me, the reader doesn't even discover the extent of Kynes true relationship with the Fremen until catchbasins are introduced and Kynes grand vision for Arrakis is explained. I just don't understand how changing Kynes gender makes him any more recognizable to viewers when he is by nature distinct from Fremen.

Kynes's death scene IIRC for example was a flashback that explained the sand trout -> worms -> spice cycle.
It would have been fun if she was to die in the desert, after fooling the Sardukar onto one of those spice precursor explosions,

This I also missed. The scene of Kynes being destroyed by the same planet he worked so hard to save whilst being aware of each stage leading closer to his death is nice and compact; tragedy, irony, and just that last bit of exposition (because of course).

 

[Abhorsen]

It is this I really don't understand. People having trouble distinguishing between Stilgar and Jamis is understandable, as characterization is much easier to convey in literature compared to a truncated visual medium that relies on shorthand to compensate for time. But changing Liet Kynes for the sake of audience recognition does not make sense to me. Kynes is outwardly imperial, betraying his true nature when revealing the extent of his knowledge concerning the Fremen. If memory serves me, the reader doesn't even discover the extent of Kynes true relationship with the Fremen until catchbasins are introduced and Kynes grand vision for Arrakis is explained. I just don't understand how changing Kynes gender makes him any more recognizable to viewers when he is by nature distinct from Fremen.

You are looking at this like someone who read the book, like I did, and then can recognize people from what they are doing/what their characterization is.

But people just watching the movie, who identify people based on how they look, not characterization. Books have this easy, as you read the name (e.g. "something something," said Liet Kynes"). But with movies, identification is based almost entirely on looks matching the character from the previous scene.

Fremen already wear very similar clothing, sometimes wear face masks, are all of the samish skintone; hair color and hair type (which is also partially hidden behind the stillsuit); and build (no one is gonna be fat in the desert, and the skinsuit hides anything else). The three men would also be about the same age. There was already difficulty with just two men. A third man wearing a stillsuit? I don't envy them.

Honestly, I don't know how they are going to pull off the next movie and keep character's separate. There's a lot more Fremen in part 2.

But changing Liet Kynes for the sake of audience recognition does not make sense to me. Kynes is outwardly imperial, betraying his true nature when revealing the extent of his knowledge concerning the Fremen. If memory serves me, the reader doesn't even discover the extent of Kynes true relationship with the Fremen until catchbasins are introduced and Kynes grand vision for Arrakis is explained.

Eh, from what I recall, he wore a stillsuit all the time too.