WI the Imperial Japanese Warships of Operation Ten-Go was ISOT to the Battle of Jutland

[kclcmdr]

What if the Imperial Japanese Warships of Operation Ten-Go was ISOT to the Battle of Jutland

On the Dawn of the 7th of April, 1945, The Imperial Japanese Taskforce, Operation Ten-Go

IJN BB Yamato, Admiral Ito in command
IJN Lt CL Yahagi,
IJN DD Asahimo,
IJN DD Hamakaze,
IJN DD Isokaze,
IJN DD Suzutsuki,
IJN DD Hatsushimo,
IJN DD Yukikaze,
IJN DD Fuyutsuki,
IJN DD Kasumi

Had departed from Tokuyama and begun its mission heading Southwards towards Okinawa and to its destiny..

As the Taskforce was proceeding South off the Bungo Channel..

The USN Submarines Threadfin and Hackleback reports their findings and then suddenly out of no-where

As sudden rainstorm of an intensity that had reached hurriane levels engulfs The IJN Taskforce and forces the two American Submarines to submerged to avoid being engulfed.

An few minutes later, as suddenly as the storm appeared... it disappears from their sonar and both submarines listen to the storm lessen in intensity...
they then surface and do not find any traces of the enemy Taskforce either by visual nor Radar...

They report their findings and American Naval Taskforce 58 is ordered to launch a recon of aircraft to search the vector where the enemy taskforce was supposed to be..

After hours of searching... no remains nor any surface warships of the Imperial Japanese Taskforce was ever found.

To this day... neither Japanese nor American investigators or researchers could find traces of the lost Task Force Ten-Go and this mystery confounds folks to this day..

Backwards into time...


On board the Imperial Battleship Yamato

" Admiral... the storm that had suddenly engulf us just a few minutes ago has suddenly dissipate and now the sky is still very murky with clouds above us and the waves of the ocean choppy, Adiraml!"

" Hmmm.. very strange... has providence given us cloud banks to give us cover from American Naval aviation spotting us? If so... we can... "

" Admiral! The Communication Center is reporting that they are picking up morse code transmission and some Radio intercepts that sounds like British English, Admiral!"

" What?! There is a British Taskforce near us?!! For us to do battle against the American Naval units and their Air Force is one thing. But to also do battle against the British?! "

" Admiral... from what Communication is picking up... it appears that the British are trying to find a German Taskforce heading into... into the North Sea, Admiral! "

" What?! Are you mad?!! North Sea?!!! "

" Admiral... the ocean sea here appears to be rougher than usual and our observers are reporting that the temperature is quite cold and windy, not like the warm, almost clear day when we were leaving the Bungo Staits, sir."

" Still.. What does communication have on those morse codes they are hearing? "

" They report that they are unable to decypher them and that there is alot of morse code chatter both North & South of us where there should be no large concentration of enemy warships North of us as far as Naval aerial reports states last, sir."

" Admiral.. we are unable to reach Tokyo nor High Command on our Radio. Nor can we pick up any Radio intercepts that might be Americans other than those from what appears to be a Radio intercept of British origin, Admiral."

" This is hard to comprehend... If what you are stating to me is truth... then ... we are no longer in April 1945 but May of 1916 and in the North Sea at the Atlantic region!! "

" Admiral... if what we suspect is true... what are your orders? We are no longer at war at 1916 England... in fact, we are allies with the British at this particular timeline while we are enemies of Imperial Germany of 1916, Admiral!"

" Admiral!! Observers on top of our ship and those in front of us are reporting Black Smoke South of the horizon! "

" Soo... Choices, Gentlemen. With what our observers have seen. If they are Black smoke of an unknown taskforce heading Northward... perhaps they are the Kaiser's Imperial Naval units going to do battle against Imperial Britain.."

" Do we fight against the British or the Germans, Admiral? In 1916... Imperial Japan, as you stated, are allied to the English.."

" On our Honour as Sailors and Samurai of Imperial Japan... Since it appears that it is 1916... We shall fight against Imperial Germany."

" They are our enemies of Imperial Japan of 1916 as we had fought against them and conquer those German possessions in the Pacific."

" Whatever happens... Communications... open up a channel to the rest of the taskforce... I shall tell them that THAT storm that had engulf us must have been a Kami and sent us back into time and a new destination in the North Sea."

" That we will fight against Imperial Germany as Imperial Japan is still at war in 1916. "


Soo.. What will happen to the Imperial Japanese Taskforce of Ten-Go from 1945 do against the Kaiser's 1916 Imperial Navy heading North against the Royal Navy? "

Will they fare well, one Imperial Japanese Taskforce against the might of the Kaiser's Imperial Navy heading Northwards while the British Fleet heads Southwards?

 

[kclcmdr]

A query was made at AH that why won't the Kaiser's German Fleet accept the Imperial Japanese TF as an ' Allied '

--00--

" Admiral... we are still technically Allied to Hitler's Germany, the Kreigsmarine and.. "

" Yes... I am aware of that , Commander... The Kriegsmarine of 1945... But this is the High Seas Fleet of the Kaiser's Battle Fleet. "

"..."

" Commander.."

" Yes, Admiral? "

" What flag is on our Battle Mast?"

" Our Flag.... ? Why, Our Emperor's Hinomaru Flag, The Rising Sun..... "

" Yes... Our Rising Sun... what has Imperial Japan done to Imperial Germany in the Pacific in 1914-15, Commander..."

" We... took over the Kaiser's Pacific possessions and declared them under protectorate status under Imperial Army & Naval Garrison, sir...."

" Then what will the Imperial German Naval Officers might do once they see us and our Banner Flag, Commander..."

" ... I See, Admiral.. "

" Then prepare our Task Force... if they challenge us... we shall deliver them a blasting blow to acknowledge that challenge, Commander."

" Yes, Admiral.."


2 PM North Sea European Time Zone.


" Admiral Hipper... Our observers on our destroyer scouts ahead of us and our own ship and the Derfflinger are reporting smoke ahead of us North of our present position ... They report seeing an unknown taskforce heading towards us , Sir."

" Indeed? Ask our observers whether they see them as Imperial British or French, Commander. "

" ..... They report... Admiral... They report that one of their vessel is at least Dreadnaught size or bigger and flies the Imperial Flag of Japan?!?!"

" What?! Impossible... latest Naval Intel reports that no Imperial Japanese ships are in the European waters other than a few destroyers!!
Have the Observers confirm that, Commander!! "

" .... They report they see the Imperial Red Flag of Japan, White background with a huge Red dot in center , Admiral! "

" Inconceivable.. Regardless... send this via wireless & radio...
Have sighted enemy formation North of our scouts. Enemy Dreadnaught plus escorts. They fly the Imperial Flag of Japan. We shall engage the enemy.
Now... this is our chance to do battle against the Imperial Japanese Navy. Raise the Battle Flag Ensigns, Commander!!

 

[kclcmdr]

Another query was made at AH that the Ten-Go TF ought to break the Alliance as they are aware of what had happened from 1919-1929 and the end of the Alliance with Great Britain by attacking the Brits and ...

They’ll (The 1944-45 Ten-Go TF) take the initiative and hope they can force the regular Japan into following their actions.

I mentioned that...


You are thinking as an Imperial Japanese Officer of 1944-45 in the statement above

What will the 1916 Imperial Naval & Army Officers among with the 1916 Japanese civilian politicians and the Emperor of Japan and his own Officials & Officers of 1916 think if military members of Imperial Japan had violated their Alliance with Great Britain...
especially if they are not already under attack by the Kaiser's HSF whom has seen their Flag Banners and move towards them to start combative actions to defeat the presence of an enemy TF who has sided with the Entente and defeated & captured German possessions in the Pacific...

The 1944-45 IJN TF, if they attacked the British Fleet... have dishonor themselves and disgrace not only themselves but Imperial Japan of 1916 by such a dastardly attack without reason in the eyes of the 1916 Imperial Japanese folks... especially, again, when they have a military alliance with Imperial Britain.

They (The 1944-45 Ten-Go TF ) can always use their time travel to get out of responsibility.

The 1944-45 TF... They have no ability to use this Time Travel to escape any of their responsibilities if they decide to attack their 1916 fellow Allies as they (the 1944-45 IJN TF) were ISOT'd by unknown means & beings and have to live in the reality of 1916... not 1944-45.

Regardless... the Ten-Go TF will not have any chance to do such a dastardly deed..
The Imperial Navy of the HSF is within observational range of their opposite heading their way from the North of the North Sea...

The Battle Ensign Flags of the Kaiser's High Seas Fleet has been flown for combat...
Admiral Ito on board the IJN BB Yamato will have his own observers notice their opposite's actions and will probably order his own Battle Flags to fly among their Imperial Flag..

The HSF has thrown the gauntlet and challenge the Imperial Japanese TF for combat...
The Challenge has been accepted...
let the dice fly and see who will prevail...
TEN-GO TF or the HSF of Imperial Germany on the Jutland seas of the North sea.


And if and when the Ten-Go IJN TF does do battle against the HSF TFs and either prevail or cause them to withdraw..
What will the consequences be that an IJN TF had ''' assisted ''' the RN British Fleet in driving the Kaiser's fleet either away or cause them to spend soo much time doing battle with the Yamato that the rest of the Royal Navy at the North Seas arrrives and finds an Imperial Japanese Fleet TF with a HUGE dreadnaught doing battle against the HSF TFs ...

How will British public opinion, even French & neutral American public, how will they see the actions at Jutland by the Ten-Go TF??
Fighting the Kaiser's German Warships... and '' helping '' their ' British ' Allies while having a BIGGER Warship than anybody else in the 1916 world?

Fear? Respect? Wary?? Wonderment?

 

[Buba]

The HSF is massacred.
The British get "excited" once they see the size of the Japanese flagship and order between four and eight 4x2x18" battleships - they already have such rifles in production, they only need to design a twin turret for them
Oh, and they try to steal and copy anything not too strongly nailed down. Tentacle hentai manga is particularly in demand.
The Japanese are very tight lipped and demand to see their Ambassador and be given supplies for a trip home. Oh - does The Big fit the Suez Canal as it was in 1916, or do they go the long way around?
Once they get home, the Satsuma Clan will sacrifice a hundred oxen in thanks to Amaterasu, while the Army connected Clans commit mass sepukku due to Divine Disfavour.,

 

[stevep]

Very interesting scenario and problems all around. Agree with kclcmdr that the Japanese fleet will side with the allies once they realise where [and when] they were - despite the probably hostility towards the UK as long assumed enemies. Germany is currently the enemy of Japan and also the fleet, which was on a suicide mission anyway as it only had the fuel for a one way trip so it needs a friendly base. Also their duty would be to 'return' to 1916 Japan with their ships and even more importantly the knowledge they have.

I think Buba could be using some hyperbola with the idea of the HSF getting massacred as there is only 1BB - albeit a bloody huge one - a CL and 8DD and by this period Japanese crew quality is not what it was. However given their good optics and also radar their going to really hurt anything they can hit with those 18" shells. If this is the German BC force its going to see some damage and going also to be very confused. If this is followed up by the bulk of the HSF then unless the Yamato turns away - which it can and should do - its likely to get swamped. Less the 11" and 12" guns of the big ships but more the hordes of torpedoes from the DD and cruisers.

The other immediate issue would be, since the force is heavily outnumbered and also short of supplies does Ito seek to contact the GF? Its going to cause a lot of confusion and both Jellicoe and London will be suspicious about the sudden appearance of a Japanese task force in the North Sea - let alone the shock in Japan when they hear about it . However they really need to do so both to start things moving on getting contact with Britain for the support they will need and to avoid an accidental clash as the RN isn't expecting any IJN ships about so any unidentified large warships are likely to be assumed to be German and possibly attacked.

I think the most likely action would be a shorter and much less bloody Jutland as the Germans, shocked at the attack, especially once they get an idea of the range at which their been fired upon and the size of the shells are likely to turn away. Given that his priority is to get his ships and knowledge back to Japan Ito should then avoid chasing them too far and possibly suffering disaster. On the other hand Japanese commanders in WWII were often less than rational when their honour was at state. Although reading his brief wiki entry Ito was a rationalist, opposing both conflict with the US and also this last mission as a pointless suicide one. As such its most likely he will seek to contact the British quickly.

In fact, depending on how detailed his knowledge of the battle and the locations at this time he could well seek to turn north and join up with the British BC force. Which will come as a hell of a shock to Beatty!! Between them they could do real damage and also inform Jellicoe better so he could bring the GF to bear on the conflict even more decisively. The RN will still have its historical problems with unreliable shells at oblique angles, unsafe powder handling - at least in the BCF - and poor communications but the Germans could be in for a real ordeal if Ito is able to advice Jellicoe on some of the key points. In fact that's the only real way it could be a crushing victory as the Japanese force don't have the strength on their own to defeat the entire HSF. Plus any a/c the Japanese force has could be very useful given their much better performance than 1916 a/c.

Of course once the RN sees Yamato and it gets to Britain there are going to be a lot of questions raised. Depending on how things go Britain could see a big boost to its wartime performance and also seeing Japan as a much more valuable ally.

Yamato has to return to Japan but that could be difficult. Britain doesn't yet have a world-wide network of oil refueling centres so fuel could be a serious matter. Plus once it gets 'home' supporting the ship would be awkward as a fair amount of the components for a lot of the electronics and also the 18" guns aren't in existence yet. How the 1916 Japanese government reacts to what Ito and his crew tells them about the future is going to be vital. Remembering here that there will be other officers who aren't as restrained as Ito and could be calling for a more rather than a less militant approach.

With Yamato in existence, even with other nations having only the barest details on it things are going to change a lot. Its the time the US is announcing its 1916 programme of 10 BB and 6 BC with the Japanese responding with their 8:8 programme so both of those are likely to be affected, as could WWI in many possible ways. If anything like the OTL WNT comes along its not going to have a 35,000 ton limit on its ships, that's for sure.

 

[Buba]

I may be a bit hyperbolic but ... the Yamato is as fast if not faster than the BCs of both sides present. All battleships are slower. It cannot be swamped, it can run away turn around and charge.

Considering the technology gap, it could well be one long lance = one battleship. And the Japanese should have reloads.

I wonder if the Japanese Commanding Officer might leg it - pre-battle, post-battle, no matter - to Scandinavia. That gets them out - to large degree - out of British influence. And they have deep ports there. BTW - are there any British harbours that can take the Yamato? 11 metres draught ...
A quick search shows there being such harbours today - but in 1916?

Beatty - good thing that you mention him. The twit could order to shoot at the "the unknown big". Now that would be fun

The ISOTed crews talking with DT politicians and military men - I'd love to be a fly on the wall then

 

[stevep]

I may be a bit hyperbolic but ... the Yamato is as fast if not faster than the BCs of both sides present. All battleships are slower. It cannot be swamped, it can run away turn around and charge.

Considering the technology gap, it could well be one long lance = one battleship. And the Japanese should have reloads.

I wonder if the Japanese Commanding Officer might leg it - pre-battle, post-battle, no matter - to Scandinavia. That gets them out - to large degree - out of British influence. And they have deep ports there. BTW - are there any British harbours that can take the Yamato? 11 metres draught ...
A quick search shows there being such harbours today - but in 1916?

Beatty - good thing that you mention him. The twit could order to shoot at the "the unknown big". Now that would be fun

The ISOTed crews talking with DT politicians and military men - I'd love to be a fly on the wall then

Buba

No offense meant and none taken hopefully.

Yamato is faster than any of the BCs but the DT DD's could be a problem if they get a few torpedo hits in. She's a bloody big ship but a couple of unlucky hits that slow her could be fatal even with her bulk. Albeit she would probably take a lot of German ships with her and if she contacts the RN they might arrive in time to drive off the Germans and possibly rescue her. However a damaged Yamato, especially if it needs repairing would be a big boon to the UK as they would have to have access to help in repairing. If Ito misjudges it and gets his ship sunk, along with probably a lot of the crew then he's lost a lot of the advantage he could bring to DT Japan. One other issue here is possibly minefields although I don't think there were any that far north of Germany.

True I forgot about the LLs' but firing at long range does mean there's a lot of chances of missing simply because of the travel time even with their speed and also escorts might 'catch' a number of them. If the DDs and CL try and get closer for more accurate fire they can possibly run into clashes with the far more numerous German cover units. Definitely could be a nasty shock for the Germans - most probably their BC force as that was in the van but that would give some warning and use up a fair number of fish. If it was that devastating and at long range the HSF would get reports from survivors and probably turn about very quickly and how far does Ito risk chasing them?

Going to Scandinavia would be a bad idea. Japan is a belligerent so the warship would have to be interned - doubly so if its just attacked the German fleet. Which would also cause an international incident if the force tried to prevent this. As well as people in both London and Tokyo wondering why this 'Japanese' for was doing such a thing.

The obvious place to go would be Scapa Flow. Not only is it the home base of the British allies and hence have a lot of facilities to support warships - probably better than anywhere else at the time but:

Scapa Flow has a shallow sandy bottom not deeper than 60 metres (200 ft) and most of it is about 30 m (100 ft) deep; it is one of the great natural harbours and anchorages of the world, with sufficient space to hold a number of navies. The harbour has an area of 324.5 square kilometres (125.3 sq mi) and contains just under 1 billion cubic metres of water.

As such areas are easily deep enough for the Yamato.

Beatty was an idiot a lot of the time but not that stupid. The first clashing in the OTL battle was when scouts from both BC forces approached a neutral [Danish IIRC] ship to check what it was and saw each other. There's a possibility if the Japanese force was heading north at speed without communicating and suddenly appeared out of a squall say that either side - but most likely the RN as its not expecting any friendly ships coming from the south but even then its unlikely I would say.

I suspect most AHs would welcome becoming temporary flies for such an occasion.

 

[Buba]

No offence taken. I did make it sound that Yamato and Friends can wipe out the HSF which is, as you noted, a bit OTT

 

[ATP]

Germans would take bigger loses,Japan would get new warships and knowledge about future.
How they use it?
They would certainly not let USA drive them from Siberia in 1923.And use technological adwantage to made England not abadonn their alliance with Japan,becouse USA said so.

P.S Americans would certainly built Tillman monsters this time,and British their battlecruiser with 508mm guns.And N# battleships later.

 

[Buba]

The "Tillman Monsters" were "half serious" designs, i.e. the Navy showing Tillamn fancifull yet still somewhat plausible concept sketches as to get him him off their back.

Inside a year or two everybody who can will be building 4x3x406 or 4x2x450mm ships with 50-60 k tons displacement.

508mm? That's minimum three if not 5 years into the future, as such a gun and turret (thus also includes barbette and everything inside it) has to be designed first. The British already had 18" (but no twin turret for it yet), IIRC the US, France and Japan all were doing some design work on their own rifles in that calibre.

 

[ATP]

The "Tillman Monsters" were "half serious" designs, i.e. the Navy showing Tillamn fancifull yet still somewhat plausible concept sketches as to get him him off their back.

Inside a year or two everybody who can will be building 4x3x406 or 4x2x450mm ships with 50-60 k tons displacement.

508mm? That's minimum three if not 5 years into the future, as such a gun and turret (thus also includes barbette and everything inside it) has to be designed first. The British already had 18" (but no twin turret for it yet), IIRC the US, France and Japan all were doing some design work on their own rifles in that calibre.

Even half-serious design are better then nothing.After seeing Yamato,USA would be very serious about it.

 

[Bacle]

Forget the guns on the Yamato for advanced/advancing tech.

The Brit's getting Long Lances this early will change the nature of small vessel and submarine warfare on a fundamental level.

 

[Buba]

Forget the guns on the Yamato for advanced/advancing tech.

The Brit's getting Long Lances this early will change the nature of small vessel and submarine warfare on a fundamental level.

This one of the reasons I was thinking about the IJN Squadron avoiding British ports. Or being stand offish. Hmmm - they can claim to have outbreaks of Spanish Flu, Divine Wind or Galloping Crotchrot, or all three, and declare a quarantine

BTW - I'm not sure if the complicated design of the Yamato's guns can be replicated. Do the naval officers know enough about the metallurgy and manufacturing processes involved? Same goes for armour.

As to ship building - if the Japanese play their cards right, everybody will sink millions into monster battleships while the IJN has the best carriers. It will build a few big gun ships as well, as to maintain pretences.
I wonder if the awful turret farms - the Ise class - can be cancelled or completed as carriers.

 

[Bacle]

This one of the reasons I was thinking about the IJN Squadron avoiding British ports. Or being stand offish. Hmmm - they can claim to have outbreaks of Spanish Flu, Divine Wind or Galloping Crotchrot, or all three, and declare a quarantine

BTW - I'm not sure if the complicated design of the Yamato's guns can be replicated. Do the naval officers know enough about the metallurgy and manufacturing processes involved? Same goes for armour.

As to ship building - if the Japanese play their cards right, everybody will sink millions into monster battleships while the IJN has the best carriers. It will build a few big gun ships as well, as to maintain pretences.
I wonder if the awful turret farms - the Ise class - can be cancelled or completed as carriers.

The BBV version, if done from the start and with some non-IJN DamCon practices, is pretty potent.

Really, a lot of the IJNs ideas weren't bad per se, they just didn't have the means to execute them in a semi-competent or complete manner by the time they thought them up.

Also, the Long Lances would likely need authorization from Tokyo before the Brist could have them, and explaining shit to Toyko is a whole other ballgame.

 

[ATP]

The BBV version, if done from the start and with some non-IJN DamCon practices, is pretty potent.

Really, a lot of the IJNs ideas weren't bad per se, they just didn't have the means to execute them in a semi-competent or complete manner by the time they thought them up.

Also, the Long Lances would likely need authorization from Tokyo before the Brist could have them, and explaining shit to Toyko is a whole other ballgame.

They probably need to send their LC there with major officers to explain what happened.
After that - Japan would keep their technology,in 1918 take Siberia and keep it no matter how much USA would want to help soviets.
They do not need to take China or even Manchuria after that.

Build carriers and few superbattleships,submarines,too.Keep alliance with England,maybe send corps to Poland in 1939/we have anti-soviet alliance in OTL/ and made french attack for real.
That would end war in 1939.

Or wait and do not enter war at all.

In first case,Japan-England alliance rule world.
In second,they are third superpower except USA and soviets.

 

[stevep]

I would agree with Buba that the Japanese would be reluctant to give technology to the UK [which for most of them is a recent enemy after all] without agreement from Tokyo 1st which could take some time. Ironically I read once that it was Britain that did the early work in such designs in the 1920's before deciding it was impractical and Japan picked up the idea from the UK and eventually developed it. The LL's are formidable but also pose some dangers for ships carrying them as if hit by shell fire or even some accident they can be very destructive to the ships carrying them.

I think for the reasons mentioned earlier that Ito has to go to the UK. Getting interned in Norway is of no great benefit to Japan at all and will raise questions all around as to why the future Japanese ships don't seek assistance from their nearby great ally.

The big issue is what 1916 Japan thinks of what the 1945 UTers tell them of the future. Do they have highlighted Japan's fundamental limitations in terms of resources - which could make them more cautious or more rash if given this technological advantages which they will realize have a limited life-span they decide their resource base needs to be expanded while they have this technological edge? This will basically decide how Japan interacts with its DT neighbours.

If their going for a moderate approach, deciding the extreme militarism of OTL 30's and 40's is a path to disaster then there would be a much tighter control of the military, especially the army and also efforts to help their current allies. Things like some information on future combat, designs of weapons such as machine guns and radios say along with some information on aero engines could be great helps. Their still likely to keep some things secret, such as radar. [I wonder if by 45 they know about the US bugging their mission during the WNT conference?]

It also raises the question of what their attitude is to Russia? To the DT Japan its a primary threat - albeit their kind of allies at the moment - but their probably far more threatened and appalled by reports of the USSR., both in the destruction of the empire and murder of the imperial family and in the giant it has become by 1945. As such I think they would try and avoid the collapse of the Romanov's but that of course needs co-operation from Nickolas and his regime which could be difficult. One possibility would be that they offer the royal family a place of exile which would keep it alive and if the Bolsheviks still seize power then they have an excuse for intervention and possibly setting up a puppet state in eastern Siberia.

If they follow the deranged warlord approach then their going to be a lot more determined to keep information and technology secret and start building up for some sort of expansion, possibly finding an excuse for an attack on China while their allies are still busy with the CPs? That could be a rocky ride for everybody.

The simple existence of the Yamato would change a hell of a lot for all the big three naval powers. Both Japan and the US would probably pause their own new programmes to reassess designs - which is more favourable for Japan as it actually has details of Yamato - and Britain will possibly need to respond faster than OTL. One big factor here is that the OTL Jutland exposed a number of serious problems in the RN which might still be hidden, especially if Tokyo takes the warlord route as they will want all future foes to be as weak as possible. Its likely that the US might go straight for a modified S Dakota [the 1916 version] while working to design a much bigger ship, probably with an 18" gun if they realise what the Yamato has. What Japan will do I don't know. They could keep Nagato and Mutsu as something they can build fairly quickly which would still be formidable against older existing vessels while they seek to work ideas/experience from the Yamato into other ships. There will be some push for carriers but it would depend on how much details the UTers could provide on a/c, possibly especially engines as a/c until OTL ~1930 are likely to be too weak to really be that effective against modern capital ships - although they could be very useful for scouting and assistance in range finding.

Anyway a hell of a lot that can happen here.

 

[Buba]

@stevep - lovely post.

Nagato and Mutsu have been ordered a few days previously - IMO will be cancelled and redesigned, e.g. with AoN. I repeat my view that Ise and Hyuga are junk and should be cancelled too.

IMO Japan cannot build straight Yamato copies, as the Navy Officers do not know how various systems, parts or materials were made. Maybe the Nagato class becomes the Tosa or even Kii class?
And this:

Number 13-class battleship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

being brought forward to 1920 (once the guns etc. are designed).

Very good point that preventing the Jutland clash will leave various RN deficiencies unrevealed. Unless the Admiral class is cancelled due to appearance of the Japanese Big, then these four ships are built as designed and are even worse than OTL. The RN still - same as IJN - had not adopted AoN.

The 1916 SoDaks should be built as designed - having hulls in the water is better than wunderwaffe on the drawing board. And the soonest the USN can lay down something with 18" rifles in c.1920. The SodDaks are pretty decent ships, BTW. Unlike the battlecruisers the USN was contemplating at that time and which here - with no BOOMs! of British BCs, these dogs might actually be built.

I don't think that the code breaking during WNT had been revealed.

As @ATP has also mentioned, Siberia is ... interesting. Letting things go to hell in Russia and grab the Russian Far East AND shrug off US bullying is just one of several possible reactions.
Not wasting the windfall of WWI for the Japanese economy on semi-private schemes in China is quite important. Japan will profit from knowledge brought by UTies, of course.

My Evul! plan for 1923 - introduce compulsory earthquake insurance and, as part of of deal to keep Russian Far East, give USA insurance companies 3-5 years of preferable treatment producing a quasi-monopoly for them ...

BTW - with knowledge that Emperor Taisho will not live long AND get WORSE before he dies - maybe Hirohito (b.1901) is installed as Emperor earlier? Or made Regent?

 

[stevep]

@stevep - lovely post.

Thanks, 😊

Nagato and Mutsu have been ordered a few days previously - IMO will be cancelled and redesigned, e.g. with AoN. I repeat my view that Ise and Hyuga are junk and should be cancelled too.

On the Nagato two they would still be more powerful than anything afloat and depending on the views of when future conflicts could occur, or periods of tension which need a naval presence could make a difference, especially if your cancelling the two Ise.

Well the Ise already under construction and part of a 'class' of four albeit with mods over the 1st two so it could go either way.

Basically I can see Japan cancelling one class but not both. That leaves them with only the 4 Kongo's, 2 Fuso [and of course the Yamato which they might have problems keeping in service] until the No. 13 comes into service. I suspect the 1916 leadership will want at least one of the two pairs to be built.

IMO Japan cannot build straight Yamato copies, as the Navy Officers do not know how various systems, parts or materials were made. Maybe the Nagato class becomes the Tosa or even Kii class?
And this:

Number 13-class battleship - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

being brought forward to 1920 (once the guns etc. are designed).

Would agree and a mod of the No, 13 would seem to be the way ahead IF Japan, given its foreknowledge decides that a small number of giant ships are the way ahead. The up timers will know that Japan will be out-built if it gets into a naval race with the US or even probably the UK and the fact that Yamato and her sister saw relatively little use compared to the smaller BBs in part because of their size and demands [fuel, crew etc]. Plus the up-timers will know about the longer term potential for carriers although it would depend on the down-timers and what their view of future events would be.

Very good point that preventing the Jutland clash will leave various RN deficiencies unrevealed. Unless the Admiral class is cancelled due to appearance of the Japanese Big, then these four ships are built as designed and are even worse than OTL. The RN still - same as IJN - had not adopted AoN.

It probably prevents at least some of those problems occurring, such as the poor night combat training and the abysmal lack of reporting by scouting forces [including Beatty!!] which left Jellicoe in the dark. Since the BCF is the vanguard of the RN force it could still end up seeing some fighting and some of those problems being exposed. Or Britain might learn some of the details from friendly Japanese officials. Although of course without a number of British ships going boom so dramatically it could take some time for the Admiralty [and also the government/treasury if it would require a lot of new construction to different designs which would cost money]. Alternatively assuming that the Yamato and its support craft head back to Japan Germany might try a later clash. After all they have some big ships building albeit not as many as Britain. Therefore while this is a probable problem for Britain its not certain.

The 1916 SoDaks should be built as designed - having hulls in the water is better than wunderwaffe on the drawing board. And the soonest the USN can lay down something with 18" rifles in c.1920. The SodDaks are pretty decent ships, BTW. Unlike the battlecruisers the USN was contemplating at that time and which here - with no BOOMs! of British BCs, these dogs might actually be built.

Their pretty powerful but from what I've read on a couple of naval boards they lack real room for further development, at least unless you get rid of something. As such a decade or two down the line making room for [a lot] more AA guns and electronic stuff like radar - along with the additional crews for those could be difficult. You could improve stability a bit by bulging them - don't recall if that was included in the initial design? - but that would make them slower and also they would exceed the current Pamax.

Agree the Lexington's especially in their 1916 design are a disaster waiting to happen. The ~1919 designs - which according to some sources might have been influenced by copies of the Hood passed on by a British designer - were better, very fast and heavily armed but very fragile. Whether they would get built here I don't know.

On a related issue I'm not sure how RN designs would go. If no input from a Jutland equivalent there is still the chance of testing being done on olders ships and captured/transferred German ones but there wouldn't be the same incentive without nasty things at Jutland. You might get something like the G3's occurring but assuming they get full details of the Yamato 18" and then US probable plan the UK/RN might feel obliged to also go to 18" guns.

I don't think that the code breaking during WNT had been revealed.

OK thanks.

As @ATP has also mentioned, Siberia is ... interesting. Letting things go to hell in Russia and grab the Russian Far East AND shrug off US bullying is just one of several possible reactions.
Not wasting the windfall of WWI for the Japanese economy on semi-private schemes in China is quite important. Japan will profit from knowledge brought by UTies, of course.

This assumes that Japan would rather have a pretty hot war with whomsoever in charge of Russia - which could be a republican government, the Bolsheviks or a right wing autocracy if the whites were to take power - assuming as likely the 1917 revolution can't be avoided rather than seeking to support a weakened imperial regime surviving or being restored. Could be a mixture with the Czar being the leader of a puppet state in eastern Siberia.

In terms of China its a lot richer than eastern Siberia and will have claims on Manchuria at least as well as quite possibly Taiwan. As such in the longer term a reformed China could be a serious challenge to Japan and its wealth while its vulnerable would make it an attractive target if Japan still goes into warlord mode. Its quite possible that militants are going to argue "with what we know now we can make sure of victory" although how much backing they would get would be the key thing. I probably won't help the internal issues since all this information about the failure of the army in China OTL is coming from their greatest enemy, the IJN.

My Evul! plan for 1923 - introduce compulsory earthquake insurance and, as part of of deal to keep Russian Far East, give USA insurance companies 3-5 years of preferable treatment producing a quasi-monopoly for them ...

I like it although given that it will become clear that the Yamatp people come from the future there's likely to be some questions asked afterwards. Especially in Japan where this requires that the Japanese leadership has hidden a massive disaster from the population.

Other evul plan. Japan is fairly open with details of the size of Yamato and its armament, speed etc and announces plans to build say the 2 Nagato's followed on by 4+ improved No. 13 designs - although they will be called something different here. USN goes tilt in terms of BB construction and RN is pretty much forced into some very large new ships. Japan builds a limited number of very big ships - with limited capacity, compounded by the devastation of the 23 quake and aftermath but is really pushing its research into a/c especially for naval use. ~1926-28 they start laying down a number of CV with the size to be formidable fleet attack capacity and some very advanced a/c compared to everybody else has. the USN has probably finished say 10-12 very, very large BB and a call for it to suddenly start building a large number of those new carrier things would raise some questions in Congress. Especially if before this is decided the stock market then collapses.

BTW - with knowledge that Emperor Taisho will not live long AND get WORSE before he dies - maybe Hirohito (b.1901) is installed as Emperor earlier? Or made Regent?

Good question.

 

[Buba]

As such a decade or two down the line making room for [a lot] more AA guns and electronic stuff like radar - along with the additional crews for those could be difficult

Does not matter. Ships are to be used 15 - max 20 - years and then scrapped. The 1930s rebuilds were an aberration.
Also - lack of room for growth of the SoDak class is not Japan's problem

The Nagato class needs (relatively) minor tweaks to be greatly improved and not require the 1930s rebuild - they need to be given AoN, made minimally longer and beamier, to lose casemattes ...
Sorry for lack of clarity and not putting thought to paper - the Nagato's as designed can be canceled and restarted with those tweaks. No work has been done, only orders for long lead items placed.

 

[ATP]

Does not matter. Ships are to be used 15 - max 20 - years and then scrapped. The 1930s rebuilds were an aberration.
Also - lack of room for growth of the SoDak class is not Japan's problem

The Nagato class needs (relatively) minor tweaks to be greatly improved and not require the 1930s rebuild - they need to be given AoN, made minimally longer and beamier, to lose casemattes ...
Sorry for lack of clarity and not putting thought to paper - the Nagato's as designed can be canceled and restarted with those tweaks. No work has been done, only orders for long lead items placed.

Building No.13 battleships,and after 1929 changing to big carriers,seems as best tactic.They should have proper planes by that time.

P.S Pity,that some japaneese subarine with german weapons did not made time travel,too.