ASOIAF/GOT When did the Game of Thrones Saga End?

[Skallagrim]

Tywin is...kinda retarded IMHO. The historical figures he was based on would have considered him a gibbering autist.

IMO, Tywin has the same problem the Dothraki and Ironborn have, though on an individual rather than society-wide level. He's not so much a 'hardass political operator & strategist extraordinaire' as he is 'a clueless writer's idea of a hardass political operator & strategist extraordinaire'. As the Ironborn and the Dothraki a respectively based less on actual Vikings and Mongols/Plains Indians but more-so on Hollywood caricatures of those people with a crapton of unnecessary edge thrown in, so too did Martin write Tywin based less on what actual ruthless & infamous medieval nobles/royals like Edward Longshanks, Philip IV and Warwick the Kingmaker (who he seems to have not bothered researching beyond the surface level, same as Vikings/Mongols) were like but on what he saw in Braveheart, The Accursed Kings or whatever.

A great example of this was a scene where (I think) Cercei is recalling a moment when someone made a some joke or insulting remark that offended Tywin and he kept hatefully staring at the guy for the rest of the evening, even after everyone else had long moved on.

This is supposed to illustrate (in Cercei's mind, but from the way it's written, also by authorial fiat) that Tywin is an icy badass who never forgives or forgets a slight (no matter how, uh... slight). But what it actually shows is that he's a total autist who can't even hide his dislike for others at the very best of times.

After all, one could have written that Tywin didn't show any outward reaction to the remark, but that a year later, when nobody else even remembered that the remark had ever been made, that guy who offended Tywin was suddenly incriminated in a treason plot, with all the "evidence" found by Tywin's loyalists, upon which he was executed and Tywin seized all his assets. That would show that Tywin holds a grudge, too, but that he's smart about it. (And if this is from Cercei's POV, it would also illustrate how she's possibly the only person who made the connection between Tywin's revenge and the minor slight that precipitated it. Which would build her up as at least pretty astute, too.)

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

But muh Braveheart villain staring a priest down til he had a heart attack!

Which is always the rebuttal and it's a dumb one for a few reasons.

 

[Typhonis]

Lets face facts. GRRM did NOT do the needed research to make ASOIAF accurate. Hell, where are the castles plastered walls? The stuff to not only keep the wind out but make scaling the walls and towers even harder? Why were the small folk apparently ignorant of writing when in the Middle Ages illiteracy meant not reading and writing Latin? No strong church that would gut Walder Frey for forsaking Guest Rights. I could go on but you get the idea. It feels more like a GURPS fantasy setting.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Lets face facts. GRRM did NOT do the needed research to make ASOIAF accurate. Hell, where are the castles plastered walls? The stuff to not only keep the wind out but make scaling the walls and towers even harder? Why were the small folk apparently ignorant of writing when in the Middle Ages illiteracy meant not reading and writing Latin? No strong church that would gut Walder Frey for forsaking Guest Rights. I could go on but you get the idea. It feels more like a GURPS fantasy setting.

Martin probably assumed because no one got excommunicated over the clan Douglas fiasco that Walder and Tywin and Roose would have gotten away with it Scott free.

When Twyin might have personally been excommed then burned alive for heresy.

Walder's entire family certainly would have faced heresy charges and Roose might have caught a fucking Starry Sept papal bull equivalent ordering a fucking crusade against the old Gods for that nonsense.

 

[Jouaint]

Lets face facts. GRRM did NOT do the needed research to make ASOIAF accurate. Hell, where are the castles plastered walls? The stuff to not only keep the wind out but make scaling the walls and towers even harder? Why were the small folk apparently ignorant of writing when in the Middle Ages illiteracy meant not reading and writing Latin? No strong church that would gut Walder Frey for forsaking Guest Rights. I could go on but you get the idea. It feels more like a GURPS fantasy setting.

Martin probably assumed because no one got excommunicated over the clan Douglas fiasco that Walder and Tywin and Roose would have gotten away with it Scott free.

When Twyin might have personally been excommed then burned alive for heresy.

Walder's entire family certainly would have faced heresy charges and Roose might have caught a fucking Starry Sept papal bull equivalent ordering a fucking crusade against the old Gods for that nonsense.

To be fair in-universe the power of Westeros' equivalent of the church was broken early into the Targaryean reign and reduced to basically a vassal of royal authority. Which is part of the reason why Cersei's decision to restore the Faith Millitant and weaken if not outright sever that vassalage was considered foolish.

 

[Earl]

A great example of this was a scene where (I think) Cercei is recalling a moment when someone made a some joke or insulting remark that offended Tywin and he kept hatefully staring at the guy for the rest of the evening, even after everyone else had long moved on.

This is supposed to illustrate (in Cercei's mind, but from the way it's written, also by authorial fiat) that Tywin is an icy badass who never forgives or forgets a slight (no matter how, uh... slight). But what it actually shows is that he's a total autist who can't even hide his dislike for others at the very best of times.

After all, one could have written that Tywin didn't show any outward reaction to the remark, but that a year later, when nobody else even remembered that the remark had ever been made, that guy who offended Tywin was suddenly incriminated in a treason plot, with all the "evidence" found by Tywin's loyalists, upon which he was executed and Tywin seized all his assets. That would show that Tywin holds a grudge, too, but that he's smart about it. (And if this is from Cercei's POV, it would also illustrate how she's possibly the only person who made the connection between Tywin's revenge and the minor slight that precipitated it. Which would build her up as at least pretty astute, too.)

Even things like the rains of castamere is dumb because well: thanks for the reminder Tywin that you are a ruthless bastord who will kill my entire family if I get on your bad side…oh shit you sent this here, I have to assume I’m on your bad side so…Revolt.

 

[Bear Ribs]

To be fair in-universe the power of Westeros' equivalent of the church was broken early into the Targaryean reign and reduced to basically a vassal of royal authority. Which is part of the reason why Cersei's decision to restore the Faith Millitant and weaken if not outright sever that vassalage was considered foolish.

This feeds into further issues though, because, as some writers have noted, nobody in Westeros actually appears to believe in their own religion, not even the church itself. They treat the church entirely as if it's another political party, where giving coin to the church can generate goodwill and votes support. Not one person, when taking an action, stops to think that there are nine powerful gods out there with numerous punishments in the afterlife watching to see if they carry out this rape/murder/robbery they're planning and taking account. Or, on the flipside, even the more morally-good North doesn't have people establishing any actual moral foundation for their ethics. Stark may pray to his weird face-trees but he doesn't seem to think that living an honest, honorable life will get him a better afterlife, or generate karma, nor does he even imply that the gods might approve in any way. His goodness stems entirely from his own internal code and not from his (nonexistent) faith nor from what his supposed gods want him to do.

This one's a particular bugaboo of mine, religion as written by people who have no faith themselves, do not understand faith, and thus write institutions of faith entirely as if they're political parties. This is probably because atheists and faithless put far more faith in their preferred candidates than their gods so when they imagine a god, they basically take their political party and then, depending on the setting, also make the fantasy !GOP/DNC with robes and funny hats capable of casting magic. In the process, they fail to realize the entire point of the church in the first place and how such a church works.

Personally, I suspect this is one reason Westeros is such a crapsack, there is no actual faith, and there is thus no actual foundation to any moral code. Any morality that does exist doesn't really have any backing to it besides "I personally think it's right" and this means anybody whose personal definition of right is "Whatever benefits me" also has no brakes on their behavior and is treated in the narrative as just as justified as the moral guy if not more so given the endless cavalcade of ridiculous plot shields the evilest people get.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Yeah, Martin does not understand what religion meant to people alive in the Middle Ages. Tyrion and Jaime (Tywin come to think of it) should be absolutely terrified of the Gods's judgement.

A someone who is writing a fantasy story, I've made it a point of pride that the protagonist takes his faith deathly seriously and doesn't end up becoming disillusioned with it.

 

[ATP]

Yeah, Martin does not understand what religion meant to people alive in the Middle Ages. Tyrion and Jaime (Tywin come to think of it) should be absolutely terrified of the Gods's judgement.

A someone who is writing a fantasy story, I've made it a point of pride that the protagonist takes his faith deathly seriously and doesn't end up becoming disillusioned with it.

Some could lost faith - but they were small minority.
And people who did bad things,either belived that gods/God wanted it,or made penance as big as their crimes after that.
Real Tywin would made big shrine for drowning his enemies,and spend few years eating only bread and punishing himself.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Tyrion being spiteful against his Gods makes sense.

But then the proper path for him was to join Euron Crow's eye if not outright replace him as the villain mage of the story.

In a setting and a society like that, if you vent your fury at your tortured existence at the heavens you don't become a witty fedora tipper. You become a vicious, despotic, nihilistic maniac hellbent on annihilating everything holy and wholesome.

Or you crawl into a cave and die, accepting your fate.

Even things like the rains of castamere is dumb because well: thanks for the reminder Tywin that you are a ruthless bastord who will kill my entire family if I get on your bad side…oh shit you sent this here, I have to assume I’m on your bad side so…Revolt.

Exactly what reason does a vassal have not to dig in and fight to the bitter end?

And this is why I kinda prefer the GOT prequels, beyond the magic of the Targs being a lot more fun..the Starks were exactly what you'd expect from an ungodly mix of the Tokugowa's the House of Wessex and a clan of progenitors whose pedigree is "We literally saved the world and every Demigod who founded every house everywhere...was either part Gardener or part Stark or both at once"

And it would have been hilarious to see Tywin pull that shit with Cregan or Theon the Hungry wolf.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Come to think of it...why aren't the Starks regarded the same way Shintoists regarded (and some still do to this day.) the Imperial House of Yamato?

They may not be the monarchs of the 7 Kingdoms but they're the line founded by the man..who fucking stepped up and finished the Azor Ahai's final job, erected the wall and more or less began civilization...fought the old pagan storm and sea gods and helped the mighty Gardener being tame the land.

There should be a level of reverence for House Stark that borders on idolatry. the Red Wedding should have been seen as a harbinger of the end times because it was believed to have exterminated the clan that held the line against the night and all other evil.

Hell, forget that beheading Ned Stark should have been seen as not just an act of dishonor but a blasphemy so foul that it made writ and law that which he attested to..Namely Joffrey being a Waters.


"The Stark has fallen, claimed by a monstrous spawn of unholy cuckoldry...seven help us, the Gods may bring back the long night if nought is done to avenge this!"

 

[Typhonis]

"The Stark has fallen, claimed by a monstrous spawn of unholy cuckoldry...seven help us, the Gods may bring back the long night if nought is done to avenge this!"

Maybe they were seen that way once but the Faith of the Seven has been working overtime to utterly crush it. It is still strong in the North where even after they bent the knee the Stark of Winterfell was known as the King of Winter.

Then the Targs did something monumentally stupid and crushed the Faith. They are now a mere shadow of themselves and the Old Way grows south of the Neck. Then Ned is beheaded.

The Red Wedding saw the betrayal and Death of Robb Stark. An accident for the Bolton bastard should have been arranged, easy to do in the woods.

Now the common folk is beginning to panic. A long summer means a long winter and the king has no time to prepare for it. Hell, he sits on his throne acting as a spoiled brat while the war still ravages the land and Ironborn raid the coast. Easily the sign of a weak king. Then Snow pops up in the North. No longer a brother of the watch. He died and came back. He destroyed the Boltons and now sits upon the Throne of Winter.

Leave out the ice zombies human evil , with magic added , is good enough.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Maybe they were seen that way once but the Faith of the Seven has been working overtime to utterly crush it. It is still strong in the North where even after they bent the knee the Stark of Winterfell was known as the King of Winter.

Then the Targs did something monumentally stupid and crushed the Faith. They are now a mere shadow of themselves and the Old Way grows south of the Neck. Then Ned is beheaded.

The Red Wedding saw the betrayal and Death of Robb Stark. An accident for the Bolton bastard should have been arranged, easy to do in the woods.

Now the common folk is beginning to panic. A long summer means a long winter and the king has no time to prepare for it. Hell, he sits on his throne acting as a spoiled brat while the war still ravages the land and Ironborn raid the coast. Easily the sign of a weak king. Then Snow pops up in the North. No longer a brother of the watch. He died and came back. He destroyed the Boltons and now sits upon the Throne of Winter.

Leave out the ice zombies human evil , with magic added , is good enough.

"All hail Jeaharys Stark! Son of ice! Son of Fire! Son of the Ned! Heir of the Brandon the builder! Heir of the Empire of the summer suns!! The Reborn! Ice slayer! Night killer! Dawn bringer! The King of Winter! The Lord of the snows! The Prince of Ice and Sand!"

"And all hail his consort! Deanarys Targaryen! Mother of Dragons! Breaker of chains! Night slayer, empress of the lands of the east! Morningstar! Child of fire! Lady of the South, the child of storm and steppe! and And queen of summer!"

in the name of the old Gods long may they reign! In the name of the Nameless down with the Starry Sept! Down with the seven pointed star! Praise be to the great and old houses of westeros who remain true!

yeah, i cant see the world of ice and fire not erupting into a sectarian clusterfuck post the final book.

Perhaps it'll take a few generations but...

 

[Typhonis]

The Targaryens lost their power because they forgot. They forgot the ceremonies and spells needed to continue the magic of Old Valyria. Forgot the spells to commune with their reptilian brothers. Spells and magic allowed the creation of Valyrian steel. That allowed their blood to remain powerful by sharing the magic of the dragons.

However, the Dance of Dragons saw the destruction of much of that knowledge. Saw the old rites forsaken and forgotten. For the most part, the Targaryen did it in secret where no outsider could witness it but...but in the sacred chamber where the knowledge was kept. Was forgotten or destroyed. An act of Malice or of Hubris.

In that chamber was where dragons were hatched. In that chamber, new generations of the family allowed their power to grow. A chunk of Old Valyria was held within a reminder of their home.

When Jon Snow was murdered and then Resurrected...Melissandre used an Old Valyrian ritual to revive him. Because Rhylor is of Valyria.

Does that work, Imortal? I also have a 'fun' idea about heart trees. Based on some theories.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

The Targaryens lost their power because they forgot. They forgot the ceremonies and spells needed to continue the magic of Old Valyria. Forgot the spells to commune with their reptilian brothers. Spells and magic allowed the creation of Valyrian steel. That allowed their blood to remain powerful by sharing the magic of the dragons.

While the loss of magic was stupid of them, the reason that the Targaryens lost their power was because they were weak and didn't ever bother to stabilize or understand their power.

Rhae's signal biggest mistake in the Dance? Not burning Old Town to the ground in dragon fire as her opening move and sending bards to every tavern, brothel, inn, and castle in the Seven Kingdoms to spread the story of what happens to those who break faith with House Targaryen and ignore their oaths.

Remember, they all swore fealty to her and to support her as Crown Princess and Heir.

Rhae had the dragons, she had an army (the North supported her), and she had more legitimacy. But she went with half measures and let it devolve into a civil war instead of showing the lords that she had the needed steel to rule. You think anyone was going to support her brother when the penalty for doing so was Harrenhal on their castles and cities? When it is so very easy to throw the blame on the High Towers for treason, oath breaking, and corrupting her brother? When the Faith has the choice to support her or watch a dragon supported army of First Men savages come south and string up the bodies of every Septon from the Weirwoods?

Aegon made the mistake of failing to actually build the infrastructure of power and failing to break the established power structures.

Rhae made the mistake of being weak.

Dany made the mistake of failing to punish treason properly.

 

[Jouaint]

While the loss of magic was stupid of them, the reason that the Targaryens lost their power was because they were weak and didn't ever bother to stabilize or understand their power.

Rhae's signal biggest mistake in the Dance? Not burning Old Town to the ground in dragon fire as her opening move and sending bards to every tavern, brothel, inn, and castle in the Seven Kingdoms to spread the story of what happens to those who break faith with House Targaryen and ignore their oaths.

Remember, they all swore fealty to her and to support her as Crown Princess and Heir.

Rhae had the dragons, she had an army (the North supported her), and she had more legitimacy. But she went with half measures and let it devolve into a civil war instead of showing the lords that she had the needed steel to rule. You think anyone was going to support her brother when the penalty for doing so was Harrenhal on their castles and cities? When it is so very easy to throw the blame on the High Towers for treason, oath breaking, and corrupting her brother? When the Faith has the choice to support her or watch a dragon supported army of First Men savages come south and string up the bodies of every Septon from the Weirwoods?

Aegon made the mistake of failing to actually build the infrastructure of power and failing to break the established power structures.

Rhae made the mistake of being weak.

Dany made the mistake of failing to punish treason properly.

That doesn't really work when the other side also has dragon's and can (and undoubtedly would have to) do the same thing burning either Winterfell directly or White Harbor as a whole city for a city. Rather than stopping the war it would have probably firmly united the other side against her for exterminating a whole town and grossly escalating the conflict. This would instead turn the whole Dance of Dragon's into a total war shitshow with the Targaryean's burning the hell out of Westeros' cities and castles.

 

[Skallagrim]

That doesn't really work when the other side also has dragon's and can (and undoubtedly would have to) do the same thing burning either Winterfell directly or White Harbor as a whole city for a city. Rather than stopping the war it would have probably firmly united the other side against her for exterminating a whole town and grossly escalating the conflict. This would instead turn the whole Dance of Dragon's into a total war shitshow with the Targaryean's burning the hell out of Westeros' cities and castles.

It became a shitshow anyway. Best to act decisively instead of waiting for your enemy to consolidate power. At the outset, they looked like usurpers to a lot of people, and if you annihilate their core power-base in one go, this puts the whole thing on your terms.

Any 'uniting' effect it has on (already-established) enemies is off-set by the curbing effect it has on doubters. Thus always to traitors is rarely a bad play. Also: Rhaenyra's enemies had already usurped the throne. She had to defeat them, or it would be game over for her. She gains nothing by dithering.

P.S. Destroying Oldtown also destroys the HQ of the Maesters, which (although Rhaenyra wouldn't know that) might just be the very bestest thing she could possibly do for her dynasty. (If that anti-dragon conspiracy theory is correct...)

 

[Emperor Tippy]

That doesn't really work when the other side also has dragon's and can (and undoubtedly would have to) do the same thing burning either Winterfell directly or White Harbor as a whole city for a city. Rather than stopping the war it would have probably firmly united the other side against her for exterminating a whole town and grossly escalating the conflict. This would instead turn the whole Dance of Dragon's into a total war shitshow with the Targaryean's burning the hell out of Westeros' cities and castles.

The Blacks had the advantage in combat capable dragon power at the start and the initiative advantage.

Not to mention the PR advantage.

If Aegon went and ordered cities burned then he was no different from Rhae and so undercuts any argument about being the better person.

He also has to leave at least one dragon tied down defending Kings Landing. Another has to be with any army or naval force that he fields (at least any large ones), otherwise he runs the risk of Rhae torching his army when its unable to do anything about it.

Rhae has the legitimate claim to the throne and every noble who supports her brother is an oath breaker; they all swore to support her.

Rhae has also proven that she is fully willing to burn the most populous city and, at the time, one of the most important noble families in the Seven Kingdoms to ash for violating that oath.

With the public proclamation to every city, town, and citadel that the punishment for supporting Aegon is the offending keep being burned you will find very few willing to stick their necks out and even fewer who command enough loyalty from their own retainers to not get pushed down the stairs so as to avoid the retainers being burned along side them.

Ultimately, Rhae has the only army that she actually needs courtesy of the North. She doesn't need any of the other nobles to support her, she just needs them to refuse to support Aegon. "Break your oath by supporting by Usurper brother and burn, don't do that and you have nothing to worry about." is a really strong incentive to stay neutral; especially when the one issuing the threat has already proven that she will carry it out.

Aegon on the other hand? "Actively support me or I torch your castle. And you should support by usurping ass because my sister torches oathbreakers" is a lot less useful as a threat.

With Old Town gone, the High Towers have lost their primary support base, the Faith has lost its leadership caste, and the Maesters have lost their coordination.

The instant the High Towers crowned Aegon and the Faith supported that claim, torch Old Town and tell everyone exactly why. Every single noble was forced to bend the knee and swear to Rhae as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. So her response, while extreme, is something that can be easily explained and easily understood by every noble and commoner across the seven kingdoms; the High Towers swore and oath and then attempted to usurp the throne, so they got fire and blood delivered unto them. "Now who wants to be the next High Tower? Or you can support Rhae and come out smelling like roses."

The Tyrells have had their most problematic vassel removed. The Lannisters have just seen Lannisport usurp Old Town as the largest port on the west coast. The North has just seen the Faith and Andals dealt the worst blow they have ever suffered. The Vale already supported Rhae and lacks any reason to switch sides.

 

[Terthna]

Honestly, I'd always expected the story to end with the whole of Westeros utterly devastated, and almost everyone dead due to the infighting before the White Walkers even managed to breach the wall. That seemed to to me to be what everything was building towards.

 

[Jouaint]

If Aegon went and ordered cities burned then he was no different from Rhae and so undercuts any argument about being the better person.

Your argument is all over the place and just biased in favor in Rhae anyone who already supported Aegon wouldn't see it as moral failing, but as a necessary response. In fact they would probably be pissed if he didn't respond equally see World War 2 with the escalation of bombing campaigns. Second off the fact that she burned down a major center of the Faith would piss people off especially since her major backers are the North whom even after close to 3 centuries of United rule are considered as fairly heathen. Much less much earlier in the timeline.

Anyway Rhaenarys can justify her actions and spin it. Aegon can do the same for his actions and use the fact that she struck with such an utter escalation of force as a rallying cry, "Remember Oldtown". Burning down an entire city as her first action would cause all sympathy for her to dry up. I'm not saying it would necessarily or even likely cause her loyalist to defect or even just decide to sit out the war. Many would likely still fully support her. But as we have seen in real life unrestricted bombing campaigns rarely break someone's will to fight in fact often the cause them to rally and fight harder, and unlike with the conquest the other side isn't totally helpless to dragons outside of some theoretical golden bullet moment.