ASOIAF/GOT When did the Game of Thrones Saga End?

[Husky_Khan]

GOT ended after 6 seasons. With Jon Snow declared King of the North.

It ended after the red wedding, Everything else was the dying thoughts of Robb Stark.

Simple enough question. When did HBO's much celebrated fantasy television series Game Of Thrones, based off of the unfinished book series by George RR Martin A Song of Ice and Fire end? We're going for quality here. What was the best time to terminate the series and salvage what could be saved.

1. At the end of Season Eight. In the wake of the defeat of Daenerys, Cersei, the Night King and the melting down of the Iron Throne thus leading to the Last Meeting of the Small Council of King Bran when the Master of Coin Bronn ushers in an era of hyperinflation and the Independent North under Queen Sansa endures a great famine before Winter ends.

2. At the end of Season Seven. When Littlefinger falls off the Ladder somehow thinking he could outsmart a Faceless Assassin of Braavos, some cripple who can see the past, present and future and Ginger 'Girlboss.' And Jon Snow submits the North and swears fealty to his hot Sister.

3. End of Season Six when Cersei blows up the Great Sept, Tommen jumps out a window and Daenerys invades Westeros. Should be a quick conquest. And Jon Snow is proclaimed King of the NORTH after the Battle of the Bastards.

4. End of Season Five When Ramsay Snow and 'Twenty Good Men' Ruin Stannis the Mannis' chance of ever claiming his rightful place on the Iron Throne.

5. End of Season Four. The Show Peaked When Tywin was Assassinated Atop a Toilet. They ran out of material then.

6. Middle of Season Three. When that sweet jam 'Rain of Castamere' starts playing, you know the show has reached its climax.

7. End of Season One. I thought Netflix cancelled the series after Sean Bean's character was executed?

8. Jon Snow wakes up in the back of a wagon, having been mistaken for a Rebel and finds himself facing execution. As he tries to sort out his thoughts after such an intense dream, a Dragon strikes, interrupting the execution.

9. I can't believe they cut out the 'Scouring of the Shire.'

10. Insert Your Own Terrible Fan Theories that Will Be Ignored.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I became gradually less invested in the series after Sean Bean died (or if you fudge it to way later, then Tommen). More and more of the likeable characters were being sidelined or killed off. By the final two or three seasons, you just have Davos, Tyrion, and... um... that's about it. (Sorry, I found the Starks to be really dull). It became a soap opera about bad people. There is very little forward moving plot momentum. It's mostly momentary character relationship and banter scenes. The season finale episodes had a lot of spectacle, though.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

I can tell you when it went bad as hard as it is athought to do so I can tell you I will need twenty good men.

 

[Terthna]

I can tell you when it went bad as hard as it is athought to do so I can tell you I will need twenty good men.

Sorry; all we've got is three mediocre men, a guy we found high on meth in a Denny's parking lot, and something we can only describe as "Jeff" that claims they're from the planet Zackdon.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

It ended when Bronn won the fucking game.

From broke mercenary to the wealthiest and most powerful lord in the seven Kingdoms who controls one of the major food production centers of his planet.

All hail Bronn of House Blackwater! May his line long endure!

 

[Free-Stater 101]

It ended when Bronn won the fucking game.

From broke mercenary to the wealthiest and most powerful lord in the adventure Kingdoms who controls one of the major food production centers of his planet.

All hail Bronn of House Blackwater! May his line long endure!

God! I never thought about it the guy must be loaded!

In all seriousness though, it depends on what we define as 'went wrong' thematically and dialogue wise the show maintained great stability even through its low points and far past when plot and overall narrative started to break down slowly post season 5 onward.

You see up until the end of season 7 I will argue the show was still narratively workable despite the hiccups like with Ramsay's 'twenty good men' and the plot armor that was starting to form around some characters alongside him like Daenarys or Tyrion. Season 7 had ended on a high note with the eradication of the Tyrells and The Faith Militant with Cersei going completely insane and declaring herself queen with Tommen's death, but the following seasons just didn't deliver on expectations at all.

I mean can I say how annoying it is that Cersei was somehow portrayed as the most stupid character in the show consistently before Season 7 rarely ever winning any of the political moves she makes and yet somehow after she off the Tyrells she somehow bumbles her way into conquering most of the Seven Kingdoms despite the fact she has no claim or legitimacy to her name and with the death of her son is a flagrant usurper for the throne?

Really, the second she put that crown on her head the war should have been over for the Lannister's with most everybody declaring for Daenarys because at this she is the only candidate truly connected to royalty by blood left. The Lannister's should have had their own bannerman rising against them in munity for this move, I don't see why Randyll Tarly even threw his support behind Cersei in The Reach with the Tyells gone, because at this point there is no logical reason to throw support behind a madwoman who is only controlling Kings Landing barely through the point of a sword, possess no credible threat to him and who allying with will only give him with more unnecessary enemies.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

The earlier seasons had their issues, but it was Season 8 that just fucked everything up.

Be it Arya ending the Winter King mid season in a way too dark for TV battle that wasn't particularly epic, Tyrion and Varys getting away with going all traitor, Jon proving himself an unworthy simp, or Bran getting himself declared King (despite everything being against that outcome).

 

[ATP]

It had problems from beginning,but - sir Twenty Good man killed it.After that,i could only laugh.

 

[Circle of Willis]

Season 4 was the last good season to me. Everything after that was just the show setting itself on fire and tumbling down a mountainside at increasing speed, smashing through the surface of Planetos, hitting rock bottom only to immediately break through it, and repeating this process until it eventually faceplanted in the planet's molten core.

I guess I'd say Season 6 was the last 'watchable' season because it does have some fun, if also illogical, spectacles like the Battle of the Bastards (where logistics no longer becomes a thing, army-wide teleportation does and both the Starks & Boltons use tactics that seem cool but make no sense if you actually think about it later) and the destruction of the Great Sept (where everyone involved has to become an idiot to compensate for Cersei gaining 200+ IQ points, whether it's the High Sparrow still thinking she'll show up to a trial after she has the zombie Mountain off one of his Sparrows or Marge Tyrell not devising an escape strategy so she & her family won't have to be there in the first place).

Seasons 7 & 8 are just horrendous and utterly without redeeming features IMO, taking every flaw from the rest of the series and amplifying them by 10,000 to build up to an absolutely nonsensical finale that takes a steaming diarrheic shit on everything that came before. It's like a medieval fantasy equivalent to Resident Evil: The Final Chapter but stretched out over thirteen episodes and two years, or three if you count the gap year they took to 'improve' the end result in-between.

I can't entirely blame D&D for that though, at least some of the fault must be attributed to GRRM for not finishing the books and providing them with an actual ending to adapt (just his notes clearly weren't enough and as adaptors rather than original creators, it's not their job to connect the dots anyway, but his). Even if they had painstakingly adapted every page from AFFC & ADWD, including all those Brienne chapters where she meanders the Riverlands for a fifth of the former book and gets nothing of importance done (hmm yeah I can see why that would be cut out in a TV adaptation, stuff like this or Dany explosively shitting herself in the Dothraki Sea makes the latter half of Walking Dead look good), we'd be up to Season 12 or 13 by now and he still wouldn't have gotten TWOW out as of this year - eleven years after the last ASOIAF book - much less ADOS.

 

[ATP]

Season 4 was the last good season to me. Everything after that was just the show setting itself on fire and tumbling down a mountainside at increasing speed, smashing through the surface of Planetos, hitting rock bottom only to immediately break through it, and repeating this process until it eventually faceplanted in the planet's molten core.

I guess I'd say Season 6 was the last 'watchable' season because it does have some fun, if also illogical, spectacles like the Battle of the Bastards (where logistics no longer becomes a thing, army-wide teleportation does and both the Starks & Boltons use tactics that seem cool but make no sense if you actually think about it later) and the destruction of the Great Sept (where everyone involved has to become an idiot to compensate for Cersei gaining 200+ IQ points, whether it's the High Sparrow still thinking she'll show up to a trial after she has the zombie Mountain off one of his Sparrows or Marge Tyrell not devising an escape strategy so she & her family won't have to be there in the first place).

Seasons 7 & 8 are just horrendous and utterly without redeeming features IMO, taking every flaw from the rest of the series and amplifying them by 10,000 to build up to an absolutely nonsensical finale that takes a steaming diarrheic shit on everything that came before. It's like a medieval fantasy equivalent to Resident Evil: The Final Chapter but stretched out over thirteen episodes and two years, or three if you count the gap year they took to 'improve' the end result in-between.

I can't entirely blame D&D for that though, at least some of the fault must be attributed to GRRM for not finishing the books and providing them with an actual ending to adapt (just his notes clearly weren't enough and as adaptors rather than original creators, it's not their job to connect the dots anyway, but his). Even if they had painstakingly adapted every page from AFFC & ADWD, including all those Brienne chapters where she meanders the Riverlands for a fifth of the former book and gets nothing of importance done (hmm yeah I can see why that would be cut out in a TV adaptation, stuff like this or Dany explosively shitting herself in the Dothraki Sea makes the latter half of Walking Dead look good), we'd be up to Season 12 or 13 by now and he still wouldn't have gotten TWOW out as of this year - eleven years after the last ASOIAF book - much less ADOS.

Yes.Battle of Bastards - they do not even cared about hiding that most of fighters are computer-made - when horseman attacked infrantrymen,dude practically vanished.
And how Cersei win - she really was saved there by Deux ex Machina.

And,that is major problem with GRRM books - Lannisters should be destroyed,by Deux ex machina saved them.Till it stop working in last sewries.
Truly,it would be better if Cersei somehow/thanks to herculean strenght of WILL - old pulpfiction trick/ managed to win and kill both Dany and Northmen.
And start another incest dynasty with Brienne as source of new Baratheons.

It still would be bad - but,at least funny.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

The obsession with Cersei and Tywin and omg lannisters! In general has had a severe impact on the quality of virtually everything GOT oriented.

Overrated as hell and the patriarch of the clan, should not have survived the second book and Cersei should have been accidented by Olena Redwyne within hours of Joffrey's death.

 

[Skallagrim]

Season 4 was the last good season to me.

Yes, there was an exponential curve of increasing stupidity after that.

As you say, in part this is because Martin just never hurried up with writing, and because his writing after ASoS decreased in quality. He planned a big time-skip, then nixed it, and couldn't get the time-line of events properly sorted out. Which is why you have characters doing nothing at all for over a book's length. They're just in a holding pattern.

On the other hand, you can also tell that the series creators did get notes on the planned outline, and just screwed it up because they're meat-brains who (are proud of the fact that they) don't understand themes. Case in point: Stannis. Fans of the series hate how his plot turned out, but the fact is: it's just a poorly executed version of the very obvious conclusion of his arc.

Lots of blame to go around, here.

 

[Circle of Willis]

The obsession with Cersei and Tywin and omg lannisters! In general has had a severe impact on the quality of virtually everything GOT oriented.

Overrated as hell and the patriarch of the clan, should not have survived the third book and Cersei should have been accidented by Olena Redwyne within hours of Jeffrey's death.

I'm bothered less by Tywin being hyped up as some nearly invincible strategic and political mastermind (although it is certainly annoying) and more by how the show tried to turn Cersei of all people into a feminist icon, tbh. It was legitimately baffling going from the books, where her POV chapters leave no room to interpret her as anything but a blithering narcissistic idiot who's also casually abusive to other women (even ones who've done her no wrong) and thinks of them as her inferiors, to the show where D&D seem to have unironically taken her overly flattering depiction of herself and constant backpatting from those chapters as gospel and not the most blatant case of 'unreliable narrator' in Martin's books. Also, it's incredibly obvious that she only survives to the end because Daenerys isn't allowed to do the logical thing and have her dragons nuke the Red Keep right off the bat when she returns to Westeros because D&D wanted to force drama or something I guess, only for her to do exactly that and instantly render all of Cersei's vaunted anti-dragon weapons & plans useless anyway.

The signs were there from as early as S1 (where they were already making her into a way nicer person than she was in AGOT by giving her a legitimate son by Robert who died shortly after childbirth) but it got way out of control in & after S6. Same dealio with the Stark sisters actually, Arya gets to have her cake & eat it by both remaining Arya Stark and having Faceless Man powers (which now translate to being an Assassin's Creed protagonist apparently, rather than just someone who's really good at sneaking up to a target before shanking them in the back) despite having barely trained, and Sansa manages to retain a reputation as 'the smartest person ever' despite constantly blundering and becoming a petty, pissy, vindictive bitch who couldn't even bother to pretend to not hate Danaerys (when she still had all three of her dragons no less!) to her face.

I strongly suspect D&D were overcompensating to cover their asses after the feminazi mob on Twitter got mad at them for giving Sansa the Jeyne Poole treatment in S5, because all this girlboss shit got ramped up to 11 starting in the season immediately afterward. And this trajectory for the Ice & Fire 'universe' (such as it is), plus how Martin's a progressive himself who's been taking fire from the younger and more hip SJW crowd recently for failing to keep up with their orthodoxy, on top of how much the marketing for HOTD seems to lean into an 'the patriarchy is responsible for all of Westeros' wrongs, everything would be fine if Rhaenyra were just allowed to assume her rightful crown by these old evil straight white men' angle suggest to me that he might very well change the ending of HOTD to have the Blacks win (well, more decisively than they did in TWOIAF/F&B) and make the Greens even more blatantly villainous.

Seriously, he & HBO have gotten so much flak from press outlets and the Twitter mob for Dany's defeat and death at the very end of GoT, not because it was badly written but because it denied them their fantasy of a stronk wamman taking over and fixing all the world's (100% male-made) problems. I'm waiting for the series to end and the reviews to trickle in before even considering watching it regardless, but if that comes to pass, welp. I didn't think I could lose any more respect for Martin but revealing himself to be a craven sellout without an ounce of creative integrity, who will allow others to disfigure his work to appease Twitter, would definitely do it.

 

[Husky_Khan]

The signs were there from as early as S1 (where they were already making her into a way nicer person than she was in AGOT by giving her a legitimate son by Robert who died shortly after childbirth) but it got way out of control in & after S6. Same dealio with the Stark sisters actually, Arya gets to have her cake & eat it by both remaining Arya Stark and having Faceless Man powers (which now translate to being an Assassin's Creed protagonist apparently, rather than just someone who's really good at sneaking up to a target before shanking them in the back) despite having barely trained,

The truncated training as a Faceless is one thing... I guess it being handwaved or skimmed over isn't a big deal for me. But it was presented somewhat poorly. I liked the bit of setup of Arya Stark being good at fighting in the darkness intentionally since she was blinded for a while (the issues of being gut stabbed and chased aside) and that whole storyline with Arya in Braavos was one of the stronger bits of the latter seasons, but the way it concluded was exceptionally baffling and they tried to cover it up with the "Rule of Cool" exit.

She literally shows up at the Faceless Temple after killing the Waif and after Jaqen Haqar states she truly has no name and achieved her lifetime goal or whatever, she's all like "I'm Arya Stark and I'm going home" and girlbosses the fuck out of there. Which was kinda cool... it was entertaining and enjoyable to watch but it was very shallow.

It would've... at least to me, made more sense if she attained that final level of achievement by taking the Waifs face, going back to Jaqen Haqar as The Waif and successfully tricking him in stating she killed Arya Stark, thus allowing her to cover her tracks in the short term so to speak.

This way our last image of Jaqen Haqar won't be him strangely looking on at Arya in admiration as she turns her back on the Faceless but give him room to return to the story in the latter seasons when he inevitably realizes he's been duped by Arya... and in masterful fashion.

Of course the Writers apparently had no further ideas in regards to Braavos and the Faceless (even though Littlefingers people apparently hailed from that region in the show) so who gives af I guess. 🤷‍♀️

I mean I could understand perhaps why the Faceless never pursued Arya Stark... but those explanations would be from my own head canon and not something that was really shown to me. Am I supposed to just go with my headcanon that Jaqen is so wise and sagely that he knows Arya's destiny is elsewhere and that he's somehow taking pride in such a protege even though they turn rogue? Or could that actually being f'ing developed some more as the next stage of their strange af relationship?

I would've loved to of seen the Faceless somehow get involved with Littlefingers shenanigans (instead of Littlefinger himself moronically thinking he could outwit the Stark daughters including a Faceless Assassin and their Brother who can see the future and the past). Imagine if the Littlefinger that was executed by Sansa and Arya was wearing a Faceless mask and just a patsy or something as one example.

and Sansa manages to retain a reputation as 'the smartest person ever' despite constantly blundering and becoming a petty, pissy, vindictive bitch who couldn't even bother to pretend to not hate Danaerys (when she still had all three of her dragons no less!) to her face.

Sansa was cringe.

They were trying to make her Girlboss! but couldn't find a way to do it, subtly or loudly.

During the leadup to the Battle of the Bastards her advice was horrible as all hell. "Durr Jon just plan for the unexpected!" Like somehow her giving him tangible insight would've negated the Battle they were planning. She could've just said "Oh he's going to use Rickon against us." Or that "He fed his own Girlfriend to his Dogs" or that "He doesn't care about his own men, just winning the battle" or something worthwhile foreshadowing.

 

[edgeworthy]

Remember how they forgot Bran for an entire season, that was not a good sign!

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

Remember how they forgot Bran for an entire season, that was not a good sign!

Or how the three eyed Raven went from being Brynden Rivers to "random ten thousand year old cave man" between seasons.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'm bothered less by Tywin being hyped up as some nearly invincible strategic and political mastermind (although it is certainly annoying).

It tells me that people are shockingly ignorant of their own history, of what realpolitik actually looks like and also that they've never actually done anything more than mindlessly "consoom" fiction as opposed to actually enjoying things, pausing to think about them and then broadening their literary and visual horizons.

Tywin is...kinda retarded IMHO. The historical figures he was based on would have considered him a gibbering autist.

and more by how the show tried to turn Cersei of all people into a feminist icon, tbh. It was legitimately baffling going from the books, where her POV chapters leave no room to interpret her as anything but a blithering narcissistic idiot who's also casually abusive to other women (even ones who've done her no wrong) and thinks of them as her inferiors, to the show where D&D seem to have unironically taken her overly flattering depiction of herself and constant backpatting from those chapters as gospel and not the most blatant case of 'unreliable narrator' in Martin's books. Also, it's incredibly obvious that she only survives to the end because Daenerys isn't allowed to do the logical thing and have her dragons nuke the Red Keep right off the bat when she returns to Westeros because D&D wanted to force drama or something I guess, only for her to do exactly that and instantly render all of Cersei's vaunted anti-dragon weapons & plans useless anyway.

From what I understand it's the sausuke Uchiha syndrome IE Amanda Peet was a huge fangirl of the character and so needled her husband constantly over it and then the Two D's enjoyed Lena Headey's acting and her ability to make smug facial expressions...coupled with a soccer mom's understanding of feminism.

She should have been killed by the woman in KL who was actually a strong female and that should have happened within hours of Joffrey's death, instead one of the most overrated and atrocious characters in TV history became the secondary final villain over the fucking master of death.

The signs were there from as early as S1 (where they were already making her into a way nicer person than she was in AGOT by giving her a legitimate son by Robert who died shortly after childbirth) but it got way out of control in & after S6. Same dealio with the Stark sisters actually, Arya gets to have her cake & eat it by both remaining Arya Stark and having Faceless Man powers (which now translate to being an Assassin's Creed protagonist apparently, rather than just someone who's really good at sneaking up to a target before shanking them in the back) despite having barely trained, and Sansa manages to retain a reputation as 'the smartest person ever' despite constantly blundering and becoming a petty, pissy, vindictive bitch who couldn't even bother to pretend to not hate Danaerys (when she still had all three of her dragons no less!) to her face.

I kinda tuned out of Arya's character arc when she "fought Brienne to a standstill" that was absolutely retarded....Arya being a good fighter because she had ample time to observe the best of the best, then receive spec ops training didn't bother me until the moment she basically kept pace with a near seven foot killing machine.

Sansa being a political mastermind when her first reaction is MUH NORTHERN INDEPENDENCE as a form of projection due to PTSD over being traded like a horse was just asinine.

Seriously, he & HBO have gotten so much flak from press outlets and the Twitter mob for Dany's defeat and death at the very end of GoT, not because it was badly written but because it denied them their fantasy of a stronk wamman taking over and fixing all the world's (100% male-made) problems. I'm waiting for the series to end and the reviews to trickle in before even considering watching it regardless, but if that comes to pass, welp. I didn't think I could lose any more respect for Martin but revealing himself to be a craven sellout without an ounce of creative integrity, who will allow others to disfigure his work to appease Twitter, would definitely do it.

The one thing I liked about the Borgias over GOT was that Catarina Sforza (Despite being toned down for TV.) was a fairly accurate depiction of women with power and privilege in that era.

IE they were often more sadistic and unhinged than even the worst of men...And they tended to make everything worse for everyone. Because they did the whole crabs in a bucket method of ascent to power.

 

[Circle of Willis]

It tells me that people are shockingly ignorant of their own history, of what realpolitik actually looks like and also that they've never actually done anything more than mindlessly "consoom" fiction as opposed to actually enjoying things, pausing to think about them and then broadening their literary and visual horizons.

Tywin is...kinda retarded IMHO. The historical figures he was based on would have considered him a gibbering autist.

IMO, Tywin has the same problem the Dothraki and Ironborn have, though on an individual rather than society-wide level. He's not so much a 'hardass political operator & strategist extraordinaire' as he is 'a clueless writer's idea of a hardass political operator & strategist extraordinaire'. As the Ironborn and the Dothraki a respectively based less on actual Vikings and Mongols/Plains Indians but more-so on Hollywood caricatures of those people with a crapton of unnecessary edge thrown in, so too did Martin write Tywin based less on what actual ruthless & infamous medieval nobles/royals like Edward Longshanks, Philip IV and Warwick the Kingmaker (who he seems to have not bothered researching beyond the surface level, same as Vikings/Mongols) were like but on what he saw in Braveheart, The Accursed Kings or whatever.

This would be less of a problem, I'm sure, if Martin & his publisher did not insist on advertising ASOIAF as the 'grimly realistic' alternative to LOTR. Only for it to turn out that orcs & trolls are more believable than the Ironborn & Dothraki societies, and Sauron is a better example of a manipulative & ruthless medieval evil overlord than Tywin.

From what I understand it the sausuke Uchiha syndrome IE Amanda Peet was a huge fangirl of the character and so needled her husband constantly over it and then the Two D's enjoyed Lena Headey's acting and her ability to make smug facial expressions...coupled with a soccer mom's understanding of feminism.

She should have been killed by the woman in KL who was actually a strong female and that should have happened within hours of Joffrey's death, instead one of the most overrated and atrocious characters in TB history became the secondary final villain over the fucking master of death.



I kinda tuned out of Arya's character arc when she "fought Brienne to a standstill" that was absolutely retarded....Arya being a good fighter because she had ample time to observe the best of the best, then receive spec ops training didn't bother me until the moment she basically kept pace with a near seven foot killing machine.

Sansa being a political mastermind when her first reaction is MUH NORTHERN INDEPENDENCE as a form of projection due to PTSD over being traded like a horse was just asinine.




The one thing I liked about the Borgias over GOT was that Catarina Sforza (Despite being toned down for TV.) was a fairly accurate depiction of women with power and privilege in that era.

IE they were often more sadistic and unhinged than even the worst of men...And they tended to make everything worse for everyone. Because they did the whole crabs in a bucket method of ascent to power.

No arguments here. Frankly, the meltdowns wokies had over Cersei's & especially Daenerys' denouements reminded me of that time Eric Andre asked a Spice Girl what she thought about Margaret Thatcher: the obvious answer to his question about the application of 'girl power' being, of course, a resounding yes. It's like they either forgot women with power can easily be as evil (or at least prone to morally questionable behavior) as men if not more, or worse (and more likely), they can't handle seeing women doing evil things and actually being treated as evil by the narrative because of these evil deeds, simply because they are Wahman.

I've seen Redditors unironically arguing that Dany should have been allowed to continue on with her war against the world and D&D are bad not for writing such an unbelievably stupid ending in the first place but for putting a stop to this feminist fantasy of literally burning down The Patriarchy™, and Bran is a bad choice for the final king not because he's been totally useless to the story (so much so that he was left out of an entire season at one point) but because it's misogynistic to have Girl Hitler's rightful throne be assumed by an omnipotent god-king instead. Truly ridiculous stuff, even by Reddit's subterranean standards.

This phenomenon would also explain the rash of Current Year female protagonists who manage to be simultaneously duller than a plank of wood and unfunny, unpleasant jackasses of titanic proportions who leave you wondering whether they're supposed to be the villains after all. Marvel's come down with that especially bad recently, but the trend has been increasingly aggressively affecting pretty much all of media since 2015-16.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

IMO, Tywin has the same problem the Dothraki and Ironborn have, though on an individual rather than society-wide level. He's not so much a 'hardass political operator & strategist extraordinaire' as he is 'a clueless writer's idea of a hardass political operator & strategist extraordinaire'. As the Ironborn and the Dothraki a respectively based less on actual Vikings and Mongols/Plains Indians but more-so on Hollywood caricatures of those people with a crapton of unnecessary edge thrown in, so too did Martin write Tywin based less on what actual ruthless & infamous medieval nobles/royals like Edward Longshanks, Philip IV and Warwick the Kingmaker (who he seems to have not bothered researching beyond the surface level, same as Vikings/Mongols) were like but on what he saw in Braveheart, The Accursed Kings or whatever.

Martin using the fact that Comanche and Sioux were living moonman memes to justify the Dothraki remains hilarious. Yes, they were hilariously honest about how insane and genocidal and downright evil their societies were. The fact that the very name Comanche was a shitpost by them (Lifting the slur their victims used against them and making it their tribal name.), they were still strategic geniuses. I mean they went from cave man tier primitivity even by the standards of other plains Indians to fighting every major military power on Earth for almost two centuries straight before the US finally bodied them...With them essentially inventing the asymmetrical style mobile warfare doctrine the US has used since the Sherman tank... ie the Comanche were able to get away with all the insane shit they did because their method of warfare was two to three hundred years ahead of everyone else.

And the moment they ran into someone who adapted to it..they got smashed for being a bunch of whackos.

And yeah, the Mongols did the skull pyramid thing. They turned Iraq into a post apocalyptic wasteland, they also had free trade, were the first major global economy to issue paper money and remove their currency from the Gold Standard (Not that this experiment lasted long but yeah.) were insistent upon exchanging as much knowledge and goods and services as possible and also had some remarkably compassionate laws that made joe blue subject of Temujin's Empire and its vassal hordes pretty happy.

Tywin has none of that, he doesn't rule the Westerlands benevolently, the life of the average peasant out there is probably shittier than it is in Dorne or the North because unlike out there..Tywin lets his craziest vassals do whatever they please and just assumes the stupid amounts of silver and gold in the ground means no one can complain because his peons are likely slightly better off materially than everywhere else.

He doesn't really understand that when you default to "RAZE THE OFFENDERS AND RAPE THEIR CHILDREN!" off the fucking bat...That it actually doesn't make you look strong. It makes you look pathetic and weak and insane.

Rob Stark called that bluff and he called it hard and if he had half of Cregan Stark's personality Tywin quite literally would have ended up hanging from a Weirwood tree by his nutsack. As it was, he likely did so much damage to Lannister prestige and capitol that even in death, he's got the old lion by the balls because his absolute dismantling of their image of strength and the extremely barbaric by their cultural norms manner in which he dealt with the Starks...made him look desperate and scared.

tldr: the Tyrells cucking the Lannister's was House Stark's legacy.

This would be less of a problem, I'm sure, if Martin & his publisher did not insist on advertising ASOIAF as the 'grimly realistic' alternative to LOTR. Only for it to turn out that orcs & trolls are more believable than the Ironborn & Dothraki societies, and Sauron is a better example of a manipulative & ruthless medieval evil overlord than Tywin.

I think it was Gwynne that soccer dad fantasy author who poses with his gigantic dogs and battle axes for his amazon books that said it best when he said "Game of Thrones is basically just an FX Network writer's attempt to reboot the Godfather Novel"

No arguments here. Frankly, the meltdowns wokies had over Cersei's & especially Daenerys' denouements reminded me of that time Eric Andre asked a Spice Girl what she thought about Margaret Thatcher: the obvious answer to his question about the application of 'girl power' being, of course, a resounding yes. It's like they either forgot women with power can easily be as evil (or at least prone to morally questionable behavior) as men if not more, or worse (and more likely), they can't handle seeing women doing evil things and actually being treated as evil by the narrative because of these evil deeds, simply because they are Wahman.

Livia Drusilla existed...any argument that women can't be monstrous tyrants is instantaneously nullified by that fact.

I've seen Redditors unironically arguing that Dany should have been allowed to continue on with her war against the world and D&D are bad not for writing such an unbelievably stupid ending in the first place but for putting a stop to this feminist fantasy of literally burning down The Patriarchy™, and Bran is a bad choice for the final king not because he's been totally useless to the story (so much so that he was left out of an entire season at one point) but because it's misogynistic to have Girl Hitler's rightful throne be assumed by an omnipotent god-king instead. Truly ridiculous stuff, even by Reddit's subterranean standards.

Ah yes, the incestous homonculus whose descended from a race of literal lizard people who were just as deadly to the world as the Others were...Because that's who you want to initiate a global revolution.

TV Deanarys was Gracchus Babeuf with tits...fuck all that.

This phenomenon would also explain the rash of Current Year female protagonists who manage to be simultaneously duller than a plank of wood and unfunny, unpleasant jackasses of titanic proportions who leave you wondering whether they're supposed to be the villains after all. Marvel's come down with that especially bad recently, but the trend has been increasingly aggressively affecting pretty much all of media since 2015-16.

I couldn't make it through five minutes of Slavic power fantasy she hulk...I shall now try House of the dragon.

Wish me luck brothers..This is gonna be a doozy

 

[Undertone]

The HBO show was good through Season 5 or 6, and it all comes down to running out of book to copy.

In addition to being bad, Season 7 and 8 were also very short, another result of losing the nuance and depth you get when you can crib from excellent source material.

The fact the show's ending was so spectacularly disappointing has also probably given GRRM severe perfectionism for TWOW/ADOS, and that will slow them down even more.