I thought the accident was called the EU.
What went wrong with Europe
- Thread starter Cherico
- Start date
I thought the accident was called the EU.
The accident was globalism and antinationalism.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
That was one of them, but there was a bigger accident beforehand. Everything else was just another rotten cherry atop the shit stained cake.
I dream of the day my beloved United Kingdom is rid of socialism, but I think I'll be dreaming for a while.
DarthOne
☦️
Honestly if we’re looking to where the UK and most of the Western World started to go wrong, I’d blame World War I. As almost everything we’ve had to deal with since is the result of bungled political decisions made during or in its immediate aftermath. We should have just let the French and Germans duke it out.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The First World War was an error, but there was a good chance of European recovery from it. A chance that was almost completely poopsocked into an early grave by the Great German Sperg Out of 1939-1945, and the post war consensus was the final nail in the coffin. However, in this world of superpowers Europe has a chance to become "The Greek City States 2.0": a collection of small and bickering, yet prosperous and strong nations that will gang up on invaders when needs be...then go back to bickering after aforementioned invader is booted out.
DarthOne
☦️
Yeah, Hitler and his gang of idiot thugs definitely didn’t do Europe, much less Germany, any favors. But even then, we probably still would have had to deal with the clusterfuck that is the Middle East (what with how it was sliced up by France and England after WWI) and the Soviets at some point.
Also, even if the Kaiser had won WWI, I very much doubt the Prussians and everyone else would have sold out Europe, its heritage and people like the recent politicians have.
The real issue with WW2, in terms of long term European politics, is that it allowed the rise of the Soviet Union. Without Germany first conquering, and then losing, Eastern Europe the USSR never really goes beyond being just another Russian government. It also has a great many border states that will provide a relatively stark example of the disadvantages of Communism relative to Capitalism; in addition, securing Russia's borders would have been virtually impossible.
Without the existential threat of global Communism championed by one of the largest empires in human history; the US never sees the need to become the "leader of the free world". There is no NATO, no Vietnam, no Korea, no UN, no Middle East (as we see it today). The US doesn't break the British and French empires at Suez, the British still have the force and willingness to maintain the British Empire.
Whether the Japanese would attack the US without the European theater is also somewhat doubtful as they would then have to fear serious British intervention.
An alternate timeline where WW2 doesn't happen is a very different world.
Without the existential threat of global Communism championed by one of the largest empires in human history; the US never sees the need to become the "leader of the free world". There is no NATO, no Vietnam, no Korea, no UN, no Middle East (as we see it today). The US doesn't break the British and French empires at Suez, the British still have the force and willingness to maintain the British Empire.
Whether the Japanese would attack the US without the European theater is also somewhat doubtful as they would then have to fear serious British intervention.
An alternate timeline where WW2 doesn't happen is a very different world.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Then there was all the psychological and cultural damage World War II did. It essentially annihilated Europe's belief in itself, which made it all too easy for the pre-existing tentacles of socialism in our societies to expand and tighten their grip.
So basically, thanks Germany, what the actual fuck.
Oh sure, blame Germany, not the austrians who threw up Hitler on us, not the UdSSR for their bullshit, not France for their bullshit, blame us.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Nobody made Germany invade Poland.
DarthOne
☦️
Actually a lot of the US’s tendency towards the whole ‘leader of the free world/city on the hill’ forigen adventurism can be traced back to Woodrow Wilson and his outlook as president. Before then it was very much ‘go in, kick their asses (unless they’re to become a colony) and get out’.
Yes, but what allowed Wilson's inclinations to become the mainstream position was the soviet threat. Without that threat, the US would do what it has always done previously and return to its pre-war isolationism.
Hell, we are going through the same thing today. The US's natural state is isolationist (at least once we were done conquering the good parts of North America).
There is no Bretton Woods, no rebuilding Japan & Germany, no Marshall Plan, no NATO, no Vietnam, no interventions in the Middle East, no Nixon goes to China, no IMF, no WTO, without the Soviet Union being considered an existential threat by the US post WW2.
And the only reason that the USSR was considered an existential threat was because it got to conquer more than half of Europe as a consequence of WW2.
Without WW2 there is no Soviet expansion into Eastern Europe and thus it remains a pre-industrial backwater. Without WW2 the US has no need to break the European empires, nor are the French and British empires weak enough to allow themselves to be broken. Without WW2, China never becomes the state it is today.
DarthOne
☦️
I disagree about the USSR staying a backwater. Even before Stalin, the Russians were starting to industrialize under the Tsar fairly quickly. It’s actually something that was a cause for major worry in Imperial Germany. With various officials stating that if they didn’t defeat Russia before a certain decade (I think it was either 1920’s or 1930’s) they wouldn’t be able to do so. As Russia would have both the equipment and manpower to steamroll them like never before.
Also, without Wilson and company at Versailles carving up Eastern Europe, I don’t think the Soviets would have had such an easy time conquering or annexing various countries in the 20’s. Plus, there’s also the western powers general unwillingness to go to bat as much as they should have for the White Army. Also, frankly if it wasn’t for Hitler, I think the European powers might have ended up playing appeasement to Stalin or whoever else ended up running the USSR.
(Though I freely admit late 1910’s and 1920’s Russian history isn’t my strong point.)
European Countries That Have Invaded Poland
Map created by reddit user americ The map above shows the European countries (in red) that have invaded Poland (in black) at some point in history. As with all maps using modern borders to show historical events, there are of course issues. For example, Italy is on the map in red as having...
brilliantmaps.com
To be fair it seems like its practically a tradition to invade Poland in Europe.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Guys, I think it was also in part to do with academics and supposed "moderation" of having a planned economy
They're not truly Communists with those compromises with businesses, but I think it's safe to say they've become something similar and worse to the USSR
They're not truly Communists with those compromises with businesses, but I think it's safe to say they've become something similar and worse to the USSR
Lanmandragon
Well-known member
You guys definitely bear alot of responsibility own it. We killed the Indians an all kinds of bad stuff every nation has. It is what it is you weren't involved anyway.
I honestly think Woodrow Wilson was one of the worst presidents in American history and did a lot of damage to the country that we are still paying for.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Didn't he have a hand in the creation of the Federal Reserve? If so, then good grief you'd be hard pressed to find a more damaging President.
Knowledgeispower
Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
He also segregated the federal government and set back civil rights by least a couple decades.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
My my, I think we've identified the root of many of America's modern woes. It's strange in some ways as the Founding Fathers devised the US government to prevent abuse of power, yet a bad President still did as much damage as a bad King in the long run. And, pardon my saying, it seems the very safeguards against tyranny in the American system ultimately hamstring the reformers trying to amend the errors of bad Presidents.