Alternate History What PoDs Would Create An Unrecognizable World?

[Zyobot]

By normal standards, the premises we like to discuss in AH circles can seem bemusing and strange. The American Revolution failing, the Central Powers winning World War I, even an inverted Cold War scenario (or two) where America and Russia play “swapped” roles. Certainly, such worlds would be quite different, with denizens of those TLs probably thinking the same of us.

And then, there are PoDs that’d take the human story in a completely different direction than anything remotely familiar to us OTL people—no Industrial Revolution, a surviving Roman Republic, or other species of humans continuing to live alongside Homo sapiens (rather than go extinct, as IOTL). Despite that, the sheer oddness of these alternate worlds make for some interesting counterfactuals, which I’d very much like to see more of. Having said that, what PoDs have the potential to create an unrecognizable world?

Thank you in advance,
Zyobot

 

[WolfBear]

Have both Jesus and Muhammad die young. No Christianity or Islam are ever developed as a result of this.

 

[WolfBear]

An Eastern equivalent of this would be having Siddhartha Gautama (the future Buddha) die young. There would be no Buddhism as a result of this.

Preventing Hinduism is harder since AFAIK Hinduism wasn't actually created by a single person. The same might also be true of Judaism.

 

[Agent23]

An asteroid destroys Mecca before Islam could take hold.

Genghis Khan is slain early on and his coalition of tribes falls apart.

Bronze Age collapse does not happen.

Greece or Rome develop steam power and more advanced machinery(Both had some interesting mechanical devices and even steam engine "toys".)

 

[WolfBear]

An asteroid destroys Mecca before Islam could take hold.

Genghis Khan is slain early on and his coalition of tribes falls apart.

Bronze Age collapse does not happen.

Greece or Rome develop steam power and more advanced machinery(Both had some interesting mechanical devices and even steam engine "toys".)

Yep, all of these and also having the dinosaurs survive on Earth.

 

[Agent23]

Yep, all of these and also having the dinosaurs survive on Earth.

John Ringo did that already, IIRC, with telepathic catpeople.

 

[WolfBear]

John Ringo did that already, IIRC, with telepathic catpeople.

I'd post a photo of Heidi Klum as a cat here, but it might be NSFW, so I'll refrain from doing this.

 

[Agent23]

I'd post a photo of Heidi Klum as a cat here, but it might be NSFW, so I'll refrain from doing this.

PM that, please.

Also, another geographic POD, the land link between Africa and Eurasia is severed at some point, this can be due to flooding, climate change, whatever, the idea would be to somehow make travel into the pacific possible without going around the horn of Africa.

Maybe the Byzantine empire, the Roman empire or the Egyptian pharaohs manage to build a working canal, that would work, too.This can be a result from the Romans/Greeks discover steam plot-line above, as it will be very hard to dig the canal with only the tech of the day.

Depending on when the event occurs spread of humans and animals from Africa might be slowed down considerably and the species and people inhabiting all the continents might be unrecognizable.


Next up, the vikings do not mess up and manage to start a moderately-successful project of colonizing america, maybe they find their way farther south, to the more fertile parts of what is today the USA.(I think Paul Anderson did that a bunch of times, though.)

 

[WolfBear]

Here's another radical PoD: Have William the Conqueror lose the 1066 Battle of Hastings. In such a scenario, England would be absolutely unrecognizable in comparison to what it actually is right now, and given the absolutely enormous English influence on other parts of the world (the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India, et cetera), this would change the world enormously.

 

[Skallagrim]

-- "No Indo-European migrations" has been done, and certainly produces something that is really, really different. "Indo-Europeans go East" is less commonly discussed, but has the same effect on Western Eurasia. The existence of basically sort-of recognisable Indo-Europeans is offset by hybridising them with East Asian cultures, which adds the effect of erasing OTL's East Asian cultures.

-- People have mentioned Jesus and Mohammed, but you can just kill off Jewish monotheism, and have the Jews retain a polytheistic faith akin to that of their Levantine neighbours. Kills off Abrahamic monotheism in one fell swoop.

-- Neanderthals surviving is always a golden trope, because the very ATL interactions between the peoples involved, going that far back, would make the world utterly alien by default. If you really want to maximise this, kill Homo Sapiens off instead. Have the Neanderthals and Denisovans continue to exist, side-by-side, and take it from there.


I personally think that any POD after the emergence of Rome and Christianity is going to produce a world that is at least somewhat familiar. You can take it in really weird and interesting directions, but it's all just less fundamental than much earlier PODs can be. PODs involving Genghis Khan, or William the Conqueror, or even Mohammed for instance... those preserve a whole lot of key building blocks of our familar world. Even killing off Rome and/or Christianity still preserves a lot of the Hellenic legacy, which is still pretty familiar to us.

The last chance to really make things very, very different would probably be something involving Alexander the Great. And even then, you have to deliberately steer things so they go off into a truly different direction. (Because 999 times out of a thousand, you'll just get a slightly different Hellenisic age, with few fundamental differences. But there's always that off chance where a longer-lived Alexander strangles Rome in the crib, subdues Carthage early, and permanently fuses Greek and Persian culture into a single imperial civilisation.)

 

[WolfBear]

-- "No Indo-European migrations" has been done, and certainly produces something that is really, really different. "Indo-Europeans go East" is less commonly discussed, but has the same effect on Western Eurasia. The existence of basically sort-of recognisable Indo-Europeans is offset by hybridising them with East Asian cultures, which adds the effect of erasing OTL's East Asian cultures.

-- People have mentioned Jesus and Mohammed, but you can just kill off Jewish monotheism, and have the Jews retain a polytheistic faith akin to that of their Levantine neighbours. Kills off Abrahamic monotheism in one fell swoop.

-- Neanderthals surviving is always a golden trope, because the very ATL interactions between the peoples involved, going that far back, would make the world utterly alien by default. If you really want to maximise this, kill Homo Sapiens off instead. Have the Neanderthals and Denisovans continue to exist, side-by-side, and take it from there.


I personally think that any POD after the emergence of Rome and Christianity is going to produce a world that is at least somewhat familiar. You can take it in really weird and interesting directions, but it's all just less fundamental than much earlier PODs can be. PODs involving Genghis Khan, or William the Conqueror, or even Mohammed for instance... those preserve a whole lot of key building blocks of our familar world. Even killing off Rome and/or Christianity still preserves a lot of the Hellenic legacy, which is still pretty familiar to us.

The last chance to really make things very, very different would probably be something involving Alexander the Great. And even then, you have to deliberately steer things so that things go off into a truly different direction. (999 times out of a thousand, you'll just a slightly different Hellenisic age, with few fundamental differences. But there's always that off chance where a longer-lived Alexander strangles Rome in the crib, subdues Carthage early, and permanently fuses Greek and Persian culture into a single imperial civilisation.)

Why did the Jews abandon polytheism?

And a fused Greco-Persian civilization will be epic! In such a scenario, the Latin alphabet would not exist.

 

[Skallagrim]

Why did the Jews abandon polytheism?

There are several theories on that, and I do not pretend to have any definitive answers as to that.

I do believe that the process was considerably longer and more gradual than the Jewish scribes later tried to make it seem. Religious history tends towards revisionism, after all, and we have clear indications that this has been the case here.

The cult of Yahweh, for a long time, was one among many. And for the longest time, the adherents didn't claim their God was the only true one. Rather, they claimed He was the only one worthy of worship. Even by the days of Solomon, I'd argue, this was still the case. And that King ruled over a very diverse realm, with various regional cults.

And a fused Greco-Persian civilization will be epic! In such a scenario, the Latin alphabet would not exist.

Indeed. It's one of the greater what-ifs, in my opinion.

 

[Agent23]

Since we are focusing too much on the West IMO here are a few more ideas:

1. China is never unified, no confucian civilization spreads.

If the warring kingdoms state continues then they might develop faster in some aspects, like the military one.

1.1 China breaks up at some point after Confucianism spreads.

1.2 A few more forward-thinking emperors decide to expand China's commercial connections and provide more patronage to the arts, Zeng He's fleet is not burned, but instead he goes on multiple follow-up expeditions to spread Chinese culture and commerce across the world.

2. Vedic religion does not give way to modern-day Hinduism and Buddhism, thus Indian society is more focused on the material and hopefully there is less of a caste divide.

3. Japan does not do silly, backsliding shit like banning the wheel, firearms and contact with foreigners, instead it just exports its more hot-blooded troublemakers across Asia and probably the Americas.(Yes, I want more Anime and Manga!)
Maybe they colonize Australia and New Zealand.

4. Civilizations in Central and North America develop the wheel, wind power and other, more advanced, tech.

 

[WolfBear]

There are several theories on that, and I do not pretend to have any definitive answers as to that.

I do believe that the process was considerably longer and more gradual than the Jewish scribes later tried to make it seem. Religious history tends towards revisionism, after all, and we have clear indications that this has been the case here.

The cult of Yahweh, for a long time, was one among many. And for the longest time, the adherents didn't claim their God was the only true one. Rather, they claimed He was the only one worthy of worship. Even by the days of Solomon, I'd argue, this was still the case. And that King ruled over a very diverse realm, with various regional cults.


Indeed. It's one of the greater what-ifs, in my opinion.

Interesting analysis; thank you very much!

Also, question: Where do you think that Alexander the Great would have expanded had he lived? I know that he was thinking about an invasion of Arabia, but what else?

 

[Skallagrim]

Interesting analysis; thank you very much!

Also, question: Where do you think that Alexander the Great would have expanded had he lived? I know that he was thinking about an invasion of Arabia, but what else?

Arabia first (but really just the coastline), then further West. Depending on events, either war with Cathage first, or war in Italy first. In the latter case, he wanted Megale Hellas to recognise him as hegemon, and then to crush the Samnites, who had previously killed his uncle (and also brother-in-law) Alexander of Molossos.

Since Rome also hated the Samnites, the oft-suggested war against Rome looks unlikely. It's more probable that the Romans would ally with Alexander. This would obviously hem Rome in to the South, but they wouldn't just be Alexander's enemies from the start.

Carthage was in Alexander's way. He didn't have a real reason to hate them, he had just set his sights on owning everything between Egypt and the Pillars of Herakles (meaning the Strait of Gibraltar). So Carthage had to submit or face war, because what Alexander wants, Alexander takes.

Once that's done, I'm sure he'd want the remaining Greek colonies in the Western Med (like Massilia) to recognise him as overlord. Some campaign to secure/pacify Illyria may also be needed.

That would be about it.

 

[WolfBear]

Arabia first (but really just the coastline), then further West. Depending on events, either war with Cathage first, or war in Italy first. In the latter case, he wanted Megale Hellas to recognise him as hegemon, and then to crush the Samnites, who had previously killed his uncle (and also brother-in-law) Alexander of Molossos.

Since Rome also hated the Samnites, the oft-suggested war against Rome looks unlikely. It's more probable that the Romans would ally with Alexander. This would obviously hem Rome in to the South, but they wouldn't just be Alexander's enemies from the start.

Carthage was in Alexander's way. He didn't have a real reason to hate them, he had just set his sights on owning everything between Egypt and the Pillars of Herakles (meaning the Strait of Gibraltar). So Carthage had to submit or face war, because what Alexander wants, Alexander takes.

Once that's done, I'm sure he'd want the remaining Greek colonies in the Western Med (like Massilia) to recognise him as overlord. Some campaign to secure/pacify Illyria may also be needed.

That would be about it.

After he dies, do the Diadochi still fight over the spoils? Or does he actually manage to produce a surviving son in this TL?

Did he have any interest in women at all? Or only in men?

 

[Skallagrim]

After he dies, do the Diadochi still fight over the spoils? Or does he actually manage to produce a surviving son in this TL?

Did he have any interest in women at all? Or only in men?

Overall, he seems not to have been very interested in sex that much. He got off on conquering stuff. He did marry three women, although two of them were Akhaimenid princesses, so that may well have been purely political. Marrying Roxana didn't serve such a clear political purpose, though, so I think he did that because he just wanted to. She's also the one who was pregnant when he died in OTL. It was a son, born posthumously, who was later killed at age 13 on the orders of Kassandros.

This means that if Alexander survives long enough in an ATL, he'll presumably have an adult heir.

 

[WolfBear]

Overall, he seems not to have been very interested in sex that much. He got off on conquering stuff. He did marry three women, although two of them were Akhaimenid princesses, so that may well have been purely political. Marrying Roxana didn't serve such a clear political purpose, though, so I think he did that because he just wanted to. She's also the one who was pregnant when he died in OTL. It was a son, born posthumously, who was later killed at age 13 on the orders of Kassandros.

This means that if Alexander survives long enough in an ATL, he'll presumably have an adult heir.

Makes sense and very interesting.

FWIW, I find it fascinating that the Greek-inspired states that the Diadochi founded after Alexander's death sometimes lasted for a couple of centuries or even longer than that. For instance, Ptolemaic Egypt.

 

[Agent23]

Makes sense and very interesting.

FWIW, I find it fascinating that the Greek-inspired states that the Diadochi founded after Alexander's death sometimes lasted for a couple of centuries or even longer than that. For instance, Ptolemaic Egypt.

Imagine it with a working canal linking the red and Mediterranean seas.

I ahd a simiar idea where Byzantium built the canal and Byzantianised a lot of Oceania and South-East Asia.

 

[WolfBear]

Imagine it with a working canal linking the red and Mediterranean seas.

I ahd a simiar idea where Byzantium built the canal and Byzantianised a lot of Oceania and South-East Asia.

Did the technology to build such a canal actually exist back then, though?