Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

[Atarlost]

This. A theoretical Phoenix LAM may only be an 8/5/8 but that turns into 15/23 in Gerwalk Airmech mode so you wind up able to outrun a Locust by a pretty fair margin while having several times its firepower. A LAM in airmech mode can outrun anything it can't outfight with ease.

WiGE mode has bigger numbers, but air hexes are a lot bigger so that's its fastest mode, not WiGE. And 5/8 is not a thrust profile conducive to outfighting or outrunning anything airborne. Airwalk sounds good if you assume you have complete air supremacy, but if you have complete air supremacy you can use your dropships to move real mechs around and your aerospace fighters to scout.

Also, airmech movement is not what it used to be. You pay more MP to move if you're above treetop level, pay more to stay airborne if you ever stop moving, and pay heat. Accuracy is also terrible, but from what I've heard VTOL accuracy was also terrible when LAMs used that movement mode.

The engine sort of makes sense, because it would be awful hard to do the transforming without borking an XL engine. The rest? :FASA:

I think FASA dropped LAM support pretty much entirely with the HG lawsuit so they never had to decide what advanced tech should work in them. The LAM tech restrictions are all on Catalyst.

 

[The Unicorn]

Airwalk sounds good if you assume you have complete air supremacy, but if you have complete air supremacy you can use your dropships to move real mechs around and your aerospace fighters to scout.

Air mechs wouldn't be of any use against ASFs, agreed. However they are maneuverable enough and slow enough that they can go after mech and armor even in city or forest.

Don't think of an airmech as a slow ASF, think about it as a mech on jets that lets it out run practically any other vehicle or mech, and can even pop up to hover at altitude in the rare times that makes sense to do.

 

[Atarlost]

Air mechs wouldn't be of any use against ASFs, agreed. However they are maneuverable enough and slow enough that they can go after mech and armor even in city or forest.

Don't think of an airmech as a slow ASF, think about it as a mech on jets that lets it out run practically any other vehicle or mech, and can even pop up to hover at altitude in the rare times that makes sense to do.

The thing about forests is that they're full of trees and cities tend to have lots of two story buildings. And if they don't they only give partial cover between battlemechs. WiGEs can't go above trees or two story buildings so the airmech has to use the extended high altitude WiGE movement which costs twice as many MP. And that means the 15/23 Phoenix LAM is about equivalent to a 9/14 or 10/15 VTOL depending on how much turning is happening. The original un-nerfed fractional accounting Warrior was 10/15 and if the writers had adjusted the tonnage a bit it could still do that. A LAM is tougher than a VTOL since it doesn't have a rotor, but VTOL rotors are a lot more durable to anything but LBX cluster rounds than they were in previous rulesets so that's less of an advantage than it used to be. By dropship space you can get three VTOLs to the LAM and the price ratio is even less favorable. You'll take more losses, but vehicle pilots are more plentiful than mech or ASF pilots much less mech pilots that are also ASF pilots.

This is not a niche that justifies LAMs unless you have a massively excessive military budget and training budget but a small recruiting pool. That sort of explains why the SLDF experimented with them, and if the Clans had kept them would have explained that, but it doesn't explain why anyone else would even consider using them.

The fundamental LAM problem is that unless you're making it with shapeshifting magic or nanotech that is effectively shapeshifting magic there are unavoidable engineering costs to transformation. The more you move from a pure rules comparison to a narrative comparison the more impossible it becomes for LAMs to be justified by any role that involves staying in a single mode. The Harrier and YAK-38 demonstrate that hovering does not require such unaerodynamic things as legs so to justify itself against them the LAM has to find a role that can not be performed without legs. VTOL aircraft exist in Battletech, but the rules treat them unfairly, not allowing them to move as VTOLs under vectored thrust, make stand off attacks against ground targets while hovering, or in the case of non-ASF have meaningful armor even though ASFs and rotor based VTOLs can. If they were treated fairly they would fill your proposed LAM role better than LAMs.

 

[Simonbob]

-Snip-

All this is true.

But, they're still cool. I'm not saying they're efficient. Or, even all that useful, in a number of cases. But, as shown by the Mechwarrior Mafia, there's certainly in universe groups who will use something simply because of cultural reasons, or because they're a point of pride as much as anything else. ("Oh, you pilot a mech? That's nice, I pilot a LAM, much more skill required.")


If we're being all logical and taking into account Physics, well, Mechs don't make much sense. Tanks all the way! So, LAMs are a pretty minor stretch to me.

 

[Bear Ribs]

The thing about forests is that they're full of trees and cities tend to have lots of two story buildings. And if they don't they only give partial cover between battlemechs. WiGEs can't go above trees or two story buildings so the airmech has to use the extended high altitude WiGE movement which costs twice as many MP. And that means the 15/23 Phoenix LAM is about equivalent to a 9/14 or 10/15 VTOL depending on how much turning is happening. The original un-nerfed fractional accounting Warrior was 10/15 and if the writers had adjusted the tonnage a bit it could still do that. A LAM is tougher than a VTOL since it doesn't have a rotor, but VTOL rotors are a lot more durable to anything but LBX cluster rounds than they were in previous rulesets so that's less of an advantage than it used to be. By dropship space you can get three VTOLs to the LAM and the price ratio is even less favorable. You'll take more losses, but vehicle pilots are more plentiful than mech or ASF pilots much less mech pilots that are also ASF pilots.

This is not a niche that justifies LAMs unless you have a massively excessive military budget and training budget but a small recruiting pool. That sort of explains why the SLDF experimented with them, and if the Clans had kept them would have explained that, but it doesn't explain why anyone else would even consider using them.

The fundamental LAM problem is that unless you're making it with shapeshifting magic or nanotech that is effectively shapeshifting magic there are unavoidable engineering costs to transformation. The more you move from a pure rules comparison to a narrative comparison the more impossible it becomes for LAMs to be justified by any role that involves staying in a single mode. The Harrier and YAK-38 demonstrate that hovering does not require such unaerodynamic things as legs so to justify itself against them the LAM has to find a role that can not be performed without legs. VTOL aircraft exist in Battletech, but the rules treat them unfairly, not allowing them to move as VTOLs under vectored thrust, make stand off attacks against ground targets while hovering, or in the case of non-ASF have meaningful armor even though ASFs and rotor based VTOLs can. If they were treated fairly they would fill your proposed LAM role better than LAMs.

Once you start worrying about how the rules treat a specific unit "unfairly" compared to real life you basically need to throw every last 'mech in the trash immediately and change the name of the game to "TankWarrior."

 

[Derain Von Harken]

Once you start worrying about how the rules treat a specific unit "unfairly" compared to real life you basically need to throw every last 'mech in the trash immediately and change the name of the game to "TankWarrior."

Speaking of forests. Have the garrisons learned some of the fun facts about how and why the local flora screws up battletech sensors.

My magsscans are all over the place this is a forest why is it registering metal structures?

Because those are the trees. Their grow natural battle armour.

How the hell does that work?

A good question but here's a better one. Why does a tree need to grow armor plate on this planet?

... .... I am afraid.

That is the beginning of wisdom.

 

[The Unicorn]

The thing about forests is that they're full of trees and cities tend to have lots of two story buildings. And if they don't they only give partial cover between battlemechs. WiGEs can't go above trees or two story buildings so the airmech has to use the extended high altitude WiGE movement which costs twice as many MP. And that means the 15/23 Phoenix LAM is about equivalent to a 9/14 or 10/15 VTOL depending on how much turning is happening.

Again, if you're using an Air-mech as a flying craft you're using it wrong.
An Air mech is a mech. A very fast mech with super jumpjets that can also fly a bit, but it's primarily a mech which can move around anywhere a mech can.

This is not a niche that justifies LAMs

No one but you ever claimed it was.

The fundamental LAM problem is that unless you're making it with shapeshifting magic or nanotech that is effectively shapeshifting magic there are unavoidable engineering costs to transformation.

True, which is why I've been suggesting dropping the useless transformation and making airmechs.

 

[Speaker4thesilent]

Aaaaaaaand this is why discussion of LAMs is banned on the BruceQuest Discord server.

If you want to continue this line of discussion, take it to the appropriate thread.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

anyways after the CAC gets the Sarissa line one and starts pumping out refit kits for Warhammers and Battlemasters(in cooperation with THI once they start their business arrangement) and Centurions and Stingrays and possibly other ASFs like Eagles on the ASF front and figure out the bird to replace the Lucifer what's their next big step going to be circa 3030?

 

[Omnimercurial]

Just caught up to page 55, though I accidently read the top of the page a couple of days ago via mis-clicking Lol

If you like Space mentions in Battletech, I can also recommend Heir to the Bruce Quest on Spacebattles. The quest protagonist winds up as an ASF pilot, so there's a LOT of space action there. (Although as Speaker said, LAMs are very niche there too).

Thanks! I'll check it out! ^_^

Decided to poke around with LAM construction for the lulz and to try to give you an idea of why LAMs are awful, @Omnimercurial

A theoretical Phoenix LAM, 50 tons, is:

1. Slower than a Phoenix at 5/8/5 instead of 6/9/6. Even in the air it can only do 5/8 rather than the 7/11 the engine rating would suggest.
2. It carries one less ML and one less point of armor than the Phoenix. It also only carries 10 freezers and it can thus only handle a standard PPC instead of an ER model. This is because...
3. It isn’t eligible for any weight-saving technology besides freezers. No Endo. No FF. No XL engine or gyro. Because reasons.

The engine sort of makes sense, because it would be awful hard to do the transforming without borking an XL engine. The rest? :FASA:

Additionally, LAMs are expensive. After the BruceQuest XL price fix, a Phoenix costs 6.25 million C-bills. A theoretical Phoenix LAM costs 5.13 million C-bills for a vastly inferior product. In short, LAMs are either slow, under armed, under armored, or under sunk. Pick any two. (And if you don’t pick slow, you get the other three by default.)

Hmmmm.... The Stats are not promising it is true.

Still.... Your Fic has escaped a lot of game mechanics/balance limitations via reasonable interpretations and Lore that rationalises some dumb things in the source material....

Maybe with Catachan designing a Homebrew ASF based on RWR Data, a new Paradigm of LAM could come to pass?

A Heavy or Assault Class LAM instead of the traditional Light and Medium?

Maybe increase their Size Relative to the Pure Mech or Pure ASF Counterparts?

That way instead of trying to cram both of the above into a Frame of Equal Size.... A Larger Frame by a Third maybe in order to provide more Room/Crit Slots and allow things like Endosteel, XLFE's and Ferro Aluminium Armour?

Maybe even design a Multiple Fusion Engine Design?

That way you get 20 free Heat Sink Slots instead of 10.

Also would provide more Energy for Weapons and Thrusters etc.

I think someone mentioned elsewhere that LAM's had issues with their VTOL Thrusters being in conflict with deploying Legs quickly etc?

If that is the case, maybe the VTOL Thrusters could be positioned elsewhere to sidestep that whole issue?

 

[Skitzyfrenic]

Drop-Superheavies. Screw LAMs put a small craft engine on an Omega and have that son of a dozen guns insert into the battlefield from the Zenith point under it's own power. Maybe just make it somewhat aerodynamic like a Marauder II. Just bigger.

Though I bet manufacturing such a thing on Catachan is going to be awfully horrible. I'm honestly expecting a revived light design or something new or the Wasp/Commando refits after the Sarissa gets going. The COM-1R is a basically an upteched version of the -1B.

 

[Yellowhammer]

I liked your Sidestory with Julia on the Dropship considering ways to address possible future issues on Catachan.... Though I found the HPG from a Dropship a bit baffling.... Maybe I misunderstood, but it did have me rather confused as to how she managed a realtime call like that while enroute to Catachan.

Actually she was still in the Tharkad system boosting outbound to the jump point. So this was no different than someone on the International Space Station speaking to ground control (she was using basically Zoom/TikTok from someplace around Earth lunar to Mars orbit distances, and lunar was doable in 1969 by NASA, sure transmission lag is a bitch but it is doable).

Once she left Tharkad's system, then yes, she would have to radio the message to a planet with an HPG to report in.

(Keep in mind that in BT it's generally a week of Dropship travel to get to the Jump Points, which are around the orbit of Jupiter in terms of distance from the Stellar primary. So lightspeed comms (radio, laser, etc.) are a thing for the first and last leg of your travel between systems.)

Aaaaaaaand this is why discussion of LAMs is banned on the BruceQuest Discord server.

If you want to continue this line of discussion, take it to the appropriate thread.

Second this please. Let's not have a derail.

Suffice it to say that the story won't be about LAMs which are fairly firmly in the Awesome but Impractical territory in BT for various reasons (starting with the TT rules not favoring them along with necessary design compromises and costs that neither Mechs nor ASF have to pay in their build rules and going from there. If you want to run a transforming Mecha, you need to do it in Macross/Robotech, not Battletech.)

 

[Lancelot]

Actually she was still in the Tharkad system boosting outbound to the jump point. So this was no different than someone on the International Space Station speaking to ground control (she was using basically Zoom/TikTok from someplace around Earth lunar to Mars orbit distances, and lunar was doable in 1969 by NASA, sure transmission lag is a bitch but it is doable).

Once she left Tharkad's system, then yes, she would have to radio the message to a planet with an HPG to report in.

(Keep in mind that in BT it's generally a week of Dropship travel to get to the Jump Points, which are around the orbit of Jupiter in terms of distance from the Stellar primary. So lightspeed comms (radio, laser, etc.) are a thing for the first and last leg of your travel between systems.)

Speaking of the lack of HPG is going to quickly become a problem for everyone on planet. Even closed military systems have Com* and their HPG so at what point will they be letting Com* in? I assume once the planets cover is blown, but maybe their willing to be cut off from the rest of the universe except for once a month mail dumps.

Second this please. Let's not have a derail.

Suffice it to say that the story won't be about LAMs which are fairly firmly in the Awesome but Impractical territory in BT for various reasons (starting with the TT rules not favoring them along with necessary design compromises and costs that neither Mechs nor ASF have to pay in their build rules and going from there. If you want to run a transforming Mecha, you need to do it in Macross/Robotech, not Battletech.)

Agreed, the rules were set to do nothing to favor them, there is no particular tech that can be used by LAMs that can't by others. Obviously when HG sued them over it they killed the entire idea, so any LAMs in any fic would need to be reworked nearly from scratch. Brucequest seems to be doing just that in universe by going back to step one which is the only good answer.

So talking about canon rules and LAMs is pointless.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Speaking of the lack of HPG is going to quickly become a problem for everyone on planet. Even closed military systems have Com* and their HPG so at what point will they be letting Com* in? I assume once the planets cover is blown, but maybe their willing to be cut off from the rest of the universe except for once a month mail dumps.

I don't think the lack of an HPG will be a problem.

All it does is isolate the system and delay the mail. Nothing truly notworthy gets lost here.

What it does do is introduce a weakness in Emergency comms. So it's harder to whistle up reinforcements or get the units on Catachan word that they are needed elsewhere, pronto.

As for Comstar being allowed...Not sure that will happen once they are ID'd as the culprits behind at least SOME of the cloak and dagger shenanigans going on.

 

[Satorious]

Comstar getting their foot in the door is almost a given. As for Comstar being ID'd as the thieves that got the goods, well I can dream but they are actually very good at the cloak and dagger thing and frameing the other houses. Unless someone finds the data core with HPG 101 the LC still need the phone company with delusions of grandeur.

 

[bobnik]

I wonder if any of the things on the Catachan Core, like SL electronics, can hasten Katrina's Black Box project.

 

[PsihoKekec]

Unlikely, that was a very specific tech.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I do wonder what the hell the Lyrans are going to think about the Artemis IV tech that very much wasn't on the core they had but somehow ended up in the Capellans copy

 

[The Unicorn]

Unlikely, that was a very specific tech.

Actually quite likely. Even if nothing can help directly, having say better test equipment will help with any such project.

 

[PsihoKekec]

The problem is that the techs from the Catachan are of very limited assortment, to make a crude modern day example, knowing how to build AGT1500 gas turbine will not help you discover Higgs boson. There is nothing there that can influence hypespace research.