Two alternate history questions based on avoiding the 1940 Fall of France

What I meant was that did the US and Soviet Union continue providing food aid to Nazi Germany until Nazi Germany actually became at war with those two countries?
The US did not, but specific relief organizations did, namely Hoover's and the American Jewish Joint. The latter is particularly interesting because the Germans let a Jewish group feed Jews in occupied Poland...which is not something you'd have expected them to do if they were hellbent on genocide from the get-go:
By 1940, JDC was still able to help refugees in transit in more than 40 countries. The Joint opened shelters and soup kitchens for thousands of Jewish refugees in Poland, aiding some 600,000 in 1940. It also subsidized hospitals, child care centers, and educational and cultural programs. Even Passover supplies were shipped in. The goal of this was to provide refugees life-sustaining aid while trying to secure permanent refuge for them in the United States, Palestine, and Latin America.

Both had to fight FDR to actually be allowed to operate, since the British and Americans had a rather fucked up theory that letting Europe starve would be a good weapon of war since it would cause 1918 style revolts against the Germans. They didn't care if millions died, which is why the Nuremberg trials were necessary to create the narrative the Nazis were the worst things since Ghengis Khan, as it let them cover up all their pretty horrible crimes during and after the war and the role that Allied actions played in the Holocaust and other starvation related deaths.
 
The US did not, but specific relief organizations did, namely Hoover's and the American Jewish Joint. The latter is particularly interesting because the Germans let a Jewish group feed Jews in occupied Poland...which is not something you'd have expected them to do if they were hellbent on genocide from the get-go:


Both had to fight FDR to actually be allowed to operate, since the British and Americans had a rather fucked up theory that letting Europe starve would be a good weapon of war since it would cause 1918 style revolts against the Germans. They didn't care if millions died, which is why Nuremberg was necessary to create the narrative the Nazis were the worst things since Ghengis Khan, as it let them cover up all their pretty horrible crimes during and after the war.

And American Jewish organizations could no longer feed Polish Jews after the US had already entered the war, right? Not even having them send food aid to Poland through, say, neutral Switzerland would have actually been good enough for this, right?

And Yeah, the problem for the Allies is that unlike the 1918 German leadership, the Nazis would prefer that millions or even tens of millions of their hostages would starve to death before even a single German would actually starve. So, by attempting to starve the Nazis into submission, the Allies would have only been starving the victims of Nazi aggression first and foremost.
 
And American Jewish organizations could no longer feed Polish Jews after the US had already entered the war, right? Not even having them send food aid to Poland through, say, neutral Switzerland would have actually been good enough for this, right?
Correct. The US went total war at that point and cut off all food aid. Until they helped the Dutch that is.
The Jewish org tried to help Jews via Switzerland, but there was little they could do other than help about 7,000 children in hiding.

The US behaved in an extremely disgusting manner toward the Jews BTW:

They blocked every effort the Jewish orgs negotiating with the Nazis of saving Jews. Himmler even offered 1 million Jews for 10,000 trucks and of course turned down. The Jews were simply used as a tool by the Allies, the Allies didn't care what happened to them even after the war when they were left in DP camps for years in Germany and Austria.

And Yeah, the problem for the Allies is that unlike the 1918 German leadership, the Nazis would prefer that millions or even tens of millions of their hostages would starve to death before even a single German would actually starve.
The problem was the Nazis repeatedly offered peace deals, pretty damn fair ones too, but the Allies refused to negotiate from 1939 until the very end. They only made unconditional surrender formal in January 1943, but effectively that had been their operating policy since the beginning. When I say effectively I mean because the only terms to end the war with Germany that were on offer were when Germany was winning and amounted to Germany accepting a massive loss, which no government, even Hitler's could survive if they tried, as a coup would end their lives and continue the war extremely quickly.

Germany learned from WW1 that they had to feed their people to avoid a national collapse, so they really had no choice; it was lose the war or let other people starve; given Allied policy at the time surrender meant effective national destruction, so it would have been insane to surrender with those conditions. So really the Allies backed the Nazis into a corner and the only option on the table then was letting people starve or accelerating the process by mass murder to contain the inevitable revolts and/or spread of disease among starving people and likely to other populations. As I mentioned before about the Typhus epidemics, even the German army was hit when they broke out.

So, by attempting to starve the Nazis into submission, the Allies would have only been starving the victims of Nazi aggression first and foremost.
Exactly. And they knew it and in fact planned on it, since they wanted a rerun of 1918 with starvation causing major uprisings against the Nazis which it was hoped would cause so many problems that the Nazi government would either collapse of beg for surrender. That is the extremely ugly truth about the Allies that has effectively been covered up in most histories, yet the US still supports exactly that strategy even today:

They did the same to Japan:
 
Correct. The US went total war at that point and cut off all food aid. Until they helped the Dutch that is.
The Jewish org tried to help Jews via Switzerland, but there was little they could do other than help about 7,000 children in hiding.

The US behaved in an extremely disgusting manner toward the Jews BTW:

They blocked every effort the Jewish orgs negotiating with the Nazis of saving Jews. Himmler even offered 1 million Jews for 10,000 trucks and of course turned down. The Jews were simply used as a tool by the Allies, the Allies didn't care what happened to them even after the war when they were left in DP camps for years in Germany and Austria.


The problem was the Nazis repeatedly offered peace deals, pretty damn fair ones too, but the Allies refused to negotiate from 1939 until the very end. They only made unconditional surrender formal in January 1943, but effectively that had been their operating policy since the beginning. When I say effectively I mean because the only terms to end the war with Germany that were on offer were when Germany was winning and amounted to Germany accepting a massive loss, which no government, even Hitler's could survive if they tried, as a coup would end their lives and continue the war extremely quickly.

Germany learned from WW1 that they had to feed their people to avoid a national collapse, so they really had no choice; it was lose the war or let other people starve; given Allied policy at the time surrender meant effective national destruction, so it would have been insane to surrender with those conditions. So really the Allies backed the Nazis into a corner and the only option on the table then was letting people starve or accelerating the process by mass murder to contain the inevitable revolts and/or spread of disease among starving people and likely to other populations. As I mentioned before about the Typhus epidemics, even the German army was hit when they broke out.


Exactly. And they knew it and in fact planned on it, since they wanted a rerun of 1918 with starvation causing major uprisings against the Nazis which it was hoped would cause so many problems that the Nazi government would either collapse of beg for surrender. That is the extremely ugly truth about the Allies that has effectively been covered up in most histories, yet the US still supports exactly that strategy even today:

They did the same to Japan:

I'll respond to the rest of what you wrote here in a bit, but in regards to the Jews for trucks deal, the Allies obviously and quite understandably had no intention of trading Jews in order to strengthen the Nazis' war effort. FWIW, I myself would have likewise refused the Jews for trucks deal but I'd have been willing to look for alternative strategies, such as giving the Nazis money in exchange for them releasing large numbers of Jews. (Though the Nazis I suppose could also play stinkers by releasing old Jews and Jewish children while refusing to release working-age adult Jews, but still, one should aim to save whichever lives one could assuming that the price was not too high.) The promise of giving the Nazis a trial as opposed to outright immediately shooting them could have also been discussed, of course--though for the Nazi leadership, it would have probably made no difference.

I'd have supported efforts to remove as many Jews out of Nazi/Axis hands as possible so long as this did not seriously jeopardize the Allied war effort, as the Jews for trucks deal actually did. They wouldn't have to be put in Palestine; they could be put in India or Africa or wherever until the end of the war.
 
I'll respond to the rest of what you wrote here in a bit, but in regards to the Jews for trucks deal, the Allies obviously and quite understandably had no intention of trading Jews in order to strengthen the Nazis' war effort.
Of course, not to mention the inability to actually get them out of Europe. But they didn't even try to help at all, even by making a partial deal. Himmler did even release several thousand Jews in 1944.

FWIW, I myself would have likewise refused the Jews for trucks deal but I'd have been willing to look for alternative strategies, such as giving the Nazis money in exchange for them releasing large numbers of Jews. (Though the Nazis I suppose could also play stinkers by releasing old Jews and Jewish children while refusing to release working-age adult Jews, but still, one should aim to save whichever lives one could assuming that the price was not too high.) The promise of giving the Nazis a trial as opposed to outright immediately shooting them could have also been discussed, of course--though for the Nazi leadership, it would have probably made no difference.
The Wallies wanted to just shoot them. Stalin of all people insisted on trials. He was the smarter one and understood the value of propaganda as well as pinning the blame on the enemy to distract from his own crimes. At the trials his agents even tried to frame the Germans for Katyn, but the effort was so blatant that it didn't work.

IIRC the Jewish orgs proposed exactly your solution, money for Jews instead of trucks, which the Allies refused.

I'd have supported efforts to remove as many Jews out of Nazi/Axis hands as possible so long as this did not seriously jeopardize the Allied war effort, as the Jews for trucks deal actually did. They wouldn't have to be put in Palestine; they could be put in India or Africa or wherever until the end of the war.
Agreed. Especially if they're going to complain about Nazi atrocities and knew what was happening (the Jewish World Congress in Switzerland had intelligence about what was happening was all passed on to the US, which was then promptly ignored), but still refused to even bomb the rail lines to Auschwitz even as hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews were being shipped to their deaths...which the Allies knew, but refused to do anything about.
 
Of course, not to mention the inability to actually get them out of Europe. But they didn't even try to help at all, even by making a partial deal. Himmler did even release several thousand Jews in 1944.


The Wallies wanted to just shoot them. Stalin of all people insisted on trials. He was the smarter one and understood the value of propaganda as well as pinning the blame on the enemy to distract from his own crimes. At the trials his agents even tried to frame the Germans for Katyn, but the effort was so blatant that it didn't work.

IIRC the Jewish orgs proposed exactly your solution, money for Jews instead of trucks, which the Allies refused.


Agreed. Especially if they're going to complain about Nazi atrocities and knew what was happening (the Jewish World Congress in Switzerland had intelligence about what was happening was all passed on to the US, which was then promptly ignored), but still refused to even bomb the rail lines to Auschwitz even as hundreds of thousands of Hungarian Jews were being shipped to their deaths...which the Allies knew, but refused to do anything about.

Bombing the rail lines I'm not sure would have done too much good since those rail lines could have simply been rebuilt--unless you're suggesting bombing them again and again and again?

Interestingly enough, there's a theory that the Allies misled Hungary with overly optimistic hopes about what the Hungarians should expect in the event of the Hungarians attempting to make a separate peace which resulted in Hungary getting occupied by the Nazis and in over half a million Hungarian Jews getting murdered:


This article argues that this could have actually been a feature rather than a bug of Allied planning since the Allied wanted less Nazi divisions to confront them in France on D-Day and apparently one way of doing that was to get the Nazis to be forced to use some of their divisons for the purpose of occuping Hungary, thus ensuring that these Nazi divisions would be unable to be in France on D-Day.
 
Bombing the rail lines I'm not sure would have done too much good since those rail lines could have simply been rebuilt--unless you're suggesting bombing them again and again and again?
Theoretically they could be rebuilt, but given the lack of labor and primacy of repairing lines to the Ruhr the follow raids necessary would have been pretty minor.

Interestingly enough, there's a theory that the Allies misled Hungary with overly optimistic hopes about what the Hungarians should expect in the event of the Hungarians attempting to make a separate peace which resulted in Hungary getting occupied by the Nazis and in over half a million Hungarian Jews getting murdered:

Doesn't surprise me at all.

This article argues that this could have actually been a feature rather than a bug of Allied planning since the Allied wanted less Nazi divisions to confront them in France on D-Day and apparently one way of doing that was to get the Nazis to be forced to use some of their divisons for the purpose of occuping Hungary, thus ensuring that these Nazi divisions would be unable to be in France on D-Day.
Oh, that's a novel theory and a rather nasty one. Thanks for sharing. They were almost right, Panzer Lehr was used to occupy Hungary. I think they assumed the occupation would require them to stay rather than the Hungarian Fascists taking over. They would also use German agents recruited from PoW camps and plant false intel on them before parachuting them into Germany with faulty parachutes so they'd die and the Germans would find the false info and think they lucked out that the Allied agent had died. So yeah the Allies were nastily devious. That's not even getting into the issue of their creating terrorism in occupied countries by parachuting special ops agents like the SOE and Jedburghs for that purpose. The occupied civilians often paid the price. For instance Oradour-sur-Glane is alleged to have had stockpiles of weapons and equipment for Allied agents, but since the French have supposedly locked the archival material into the investigation of the destruction of the village by the 2nd SS division in 1944 it is difficult to say for sure and no one believes the Nazis' claims about what happened.
 
Theoretically they could be rebuilt, but given the lack of labor and primacy of repairing lines to the Ruhr the follow raids necessary would have been pretty minor.


Doesn't surprise me at all.


Oh, that's a novel theory and a rather nasty one. Thanks for sharing. They were almost right, Panzer Lehr was used to occupy Hungary. I think they assumed the occupation would require them to stay rather than the Hungarian Fascists taking over. They would also use German agents recruited from PoW camps and plant false intel on them before parachuting them into Germany with faulty parachutes so they'd die and the Germans would find the false info and think they lucked out that the Allied agent had died. So yeah the Allies were nastily devious. That's not even getting into the issue of their creating terrorism in occupied countries by parachuting special ops agents like the SOE and Jedburghs for that purpose. The occupied civilians often paid the price. For instance Oradour-sur-Glane is alleged to have had stockpiles of weapons and equipment for Allied agents, but since the French have supposedly locked the archival material into the investigation of the destruction of the village by the 2nd SS division in 1944 it is difficult to say for sure and no one believes the Nazis' claims about what happened.

When will the Oradour-sur-Glane info become declassified?

As a side note, I actually do approve of some Allied terrorism during WWII, such as killing Reinhard Heydrich. That I think needed to be done. Though when one thinks about the Lidice reprisals, even then, one is unsure.

That article mentions that something like 10 German divisions apparently did stay in Hungary after the occupation (the front lines were already approaching Hungary, after all), but you're obviously correct that things were made easier by the fact that there were plenty of willing Nazi collaborators in Hungary in 1944. Had the Hungarians been slower in deporting their Jews to Nazi death camps, then much more Hungarian Jews could have been saved. But the Hungarians really chose to give it their all! :(
 
When will the Oradour-sur-Glane info become declassified?
Not sure if it even is, just a claim I saw once.

As a side note, I actually do approve of some Allied terrorism during WWII, such as killing Reinhard Heydrich. That I think needed to be done. Though when one thinks about the Lidice reprisals, even then, one is unsure.
Yeah the reaction wasn't worth killing him. Besides he reason he was killed was only because he was so effective in pacifying Czechoslovakia (mostly through non-violent methods surprisingly) and the Czech government in exile was worried that their country would be treated as collaborators when it was all over since the Czechs were effectively acting as allies of Germany and were a massive source of armaments. Apparently the average Czech didn't think the protectorate was so bad.

The Brits were worried because Heydrich was so effective and was leaving Bohemia to go to France to replicate his success there. They understood the consequences of the resistance being made unpopular in France. So it was self interest, not removing the person that planned the Holocaust...which continued on anyway without him.

That article mentions that something like 10 German divisions apparently did stay in Hungary after the occupation (the front lines were already approaching Hungary, after all), but you're obviously correct that things were made easier by the fact that there were plenty of willing Nazi collaborators in Hungary in 1944. Had the Hungarians been slower in deporting their Jews to Nazi death camps, then much more Hungarian Jews could have been saved. But the Hungarians really chose to give it their all! :(
Given the number of Hungarian divisions sent to the front that Spring as the front line approached it was offset by Hungarian help. BTW do you know which divisions? I'm skeptical of claims until I can verify them independently; found too many of such claims tend not to be founded in reality. Like the Mincemeat deception; the British swear the Germans took the bait, but I cannot find anything that actually backs that up on the German side.

Turns out the Hungarian Fascists, like the Romanian ones, were all for getting rid of Jews. The reason was probably because they were allowed to loot the Jews' possessions. One factor generally not acknowledged was that the targeting of the Jews gave people a lot of resources to distribute; as the German Jews were sent east Germans who were bombed out were given their houses. The various states who targeted their Jewish citizens raised huge amounts of money from robbing them blind. The Soviets in fact robbed all the banks in Hungary which had kept the money of the Jews deported since they knew from intel that all those assets were left behind. Never forget the material reasons for people's behaviors. That's why the anti-semitic policies of the Nazis were extremely popular in Eastern Europe; the people that participated in killing Jews were allowed to loot (and sometimes rape) to their heart's content.
 
Didn't know how well you looked over the text.


Given how unlikely that is since we know how the battles were shaping up even with the weaker forces used IOTL, plus of course the 12th army having some panzers to exploit the Ardennes even before the major change post-Mechelin which would likely force a retreat out of the Lowlands anyway, it is irrelevant to the discussion.


If the Allies are pushed out of the Lowlands it will look like the Germans are clearly winning the head to head bash up.
No way that the Italians would do that when the situation in the West was so uncertain; Italy needed to keep its powder dry in the event intervention would be on the table. Though invading Yugoslavia was discussed until April once it was clear Germany was going to attack Mussolini opted to wait to see how events played out. Even if there isn't a clear winner in the campaign Mussolini could order intervention to tip the scales and get even more goodies at the expected peace deal. IOTL events moved more quickly that Mussolini could act so he very well could have been willing to enter sooner, but didn't have the chance since the Germans won so quickly. Also Italy was furious at Britain for the blockade that impacted their imports, so that could very well tip intervention as well.






Sure, but it took a while to get all that sorted and that was only really useful for Barbarossa. It was not necessary to beat France or launch the Battle of Britain. Plans were at that time for a long war in the west without any loot being available, so as it was the people doing the planning thought they had what they needed to defeat the Allies with just what they had before the invasion and trade with the Soviets; Stalin only cut shipments once Germany won out of fear that his plan to let the Germans and Allies wear each other out in a long war had failed; here he'd keep supplying Germany if the fighting continued to ensure the imperialists were weakened.

I assume that is HL, because I can't recall saying that. I doubt that it would be true if Britain quit, since France would likely quit at the same time to avoid exactly that horrible possibility.

Oh there was a major impact on infrastructure due to the intensity of the bombing campaign. There is a reason French reserves had so much trouble moving around behind the lines and in fact dissolved in the face of bombing attacks. "Phoenix Rising" by Hooton is about the history of the Luftwaffe from 1918-1940 and covers the period between the French campaign and Battle of Britain and notes how much work had to be done to restore infrastructure to even be able to sustain aircraft in the north of France and of course the advance into the rest of France in June. Since France had a lot of developed infrastructure but the impacted region was relatively small rapid repairs were possible.

Again you're not wrong that Germany did exploit France for a lot of stuff, but the occupation took time to set up and the majority of the looting came in several months into the occupation and the bulk IIRC only in 1941. So again, more important for Barbarossa than an extended campaign in the west.


Do the numbers in the books you've seen actually break down the difference? I've read quite a bit on the BoB and they don't differentiate between total number of aircraft and total number produced exclusively in Britain. Britain only exceeded Germany in a few categories due to purchases of completed war planes (including French orders), machine tools, and raw materials as well as focusing output on things like fighter planes. In fact other than fighters I'm not sure what Britain actually exceeded Germany in producing in 1940. It is the reverse to the situation in 1944 when Germany outproduced Britain in total aircraft due to focusing on fighters while the Brits focused on bombers.

I said Britain was insolvent by 1941 IOTL; that is relevant to a situation where France doesn't fall because Britain is going to have to spend a lot more to sustain an army in the field AND a major air force as well with US purchases. Rather than simply taking over French orders for aircraft IOTL it will be demand for army materials instead. Heavy purchasing was going to happen given the WW1 experience of how spending only increased exponentially after the ground battles escalated. If anything the quick defeat simply extended British financial reserves, as they then could focus on a less costly more limited type of combat.


Agree to disagree on that. After all they used massive restraint throughout the war and it was generally the Allies and Soviets to escalated things. City bombing was started by the British not the Nazis. What bombing of cities they did in 1939-40 were of legal targets which were defended by military units. Contrary to the BS the Poles have pushed Weilun had reports of Polish troops in the town, which was why it was bombed; the intel could have been faulty of course, that happens in war all the time, but it was targeted not for terror, but for military purposes. Same with Guernica incidentally. Rotterdam and Warsaw were both defended by ground troops when they were bombed. Hitler forbade bombing British cities until the RAF had raided Berlin several times in 1940. The one incident the Luftwaffe had been involved in in August was due to a single bomber bombing the wrong target by accident.

Later on take for example the situation of the Jews. Mass murder of Jews didn't start until Barbarossa and even then only after the partisan war started, as the Einsatzgruppen orders to start killing Jews only came on the 8th of July, more than two weeks into the war and initially only targeting Jewish men of fighting age and only specifically said 'treat them as partisans' as it was claimed that they were disproportionately involved in guerrilla activities. Remember this is after the NKVD prison massacres that killed around 100,000 people in a matter of days in prisons the Germans overran, the Red Army massacring/mutilating prisoners and the dead from the beginning of the war (well documented by their war crimes bureau, I've seen the reports and pictures...quite gruesome stuff), Stalin announcing/ordering the formation of guerrilla warfare units behind German lines in a radio address on July 3rd, and various other things (one example: burning or taking all the food and farm equipment to leave their own civilians with nothing to eat or be able to plant for next season). The Soviets fought a dirty war from the very beginning that radicalized German forces and even the Nazis were shocked by what they encountered, which we know from captured reports. They got radicalized by the war just the same as everyone else as we can see by the escalating atrocities on both sides.

You don't have to take my word for it either, Timothy Snyder wrote a book called "Bloodlands" which discussed how both the Soviets and Nazis escalated their crimes as they played off of each other. Well reviewed book BTW:
He specifically points out how Soviet partisans made the suffering of the civilian population much worse due to targeting them, anyone who supported the Germans, and let civilians bear the brunt of the Nazi 'anti-partisan' measures, which generally meant extreme force as the attacks escalated. Soviet strategy was to radicalize civilians to prevent them from cooperating with the Germans, which meant ensuring they suffered as much as possible.

None of this is to say the Nazis didn't do horrible stuff, but the Allied propagandistic narrative of the war is simply not accurate; as they say the victors write the history of the war and they really tried to blame everything on Nazi awfulness and mentality, but very conveniently left out their own role in escalating everything to new heights of awfulness. About the only taboo both sides refused to break was the use of chemical weapons.


That is what the Allies claimed after the war, that doesn't actually hold up to the documents in question.
In the case of the Dutch remember the Germans were the ones who negotiated with the Allies to avoid a famine disaster; they did the same thing in Greece in 1941 despite the British being willing to let 100s of thousands starve until Turkey of all people stepped in to help. The famine in the Netherlands was more about the bombing and rail strike of the Dutch themselves, trying to help the Allies by paralyzing transport, that prevented food from being moved around. After all it doesn't make sense for the Germans to ask the Allies to paradrop food to civilians if they intended to starve them.


It seemed you were claiming the military output of Canada and India were sent to Britain, which was largely not the case, especially regarding India. You brought up Canadian food and its importance.


The French fought hard throughout the campaign. They just knew when to quit when because they understood that the Nazis wouldn't treat them barbarically, which they largely didn't throughout the war.
Ok? Sure we know how many men in the empire were mobilized throughout the war, but we need to know how many were actually available and ready to fight in 1940-41, because if they weren't ready to fight in that period then the war in Europe would be over well before they were ready.


No no, you have to prove that. So far there is ZERO evidence that that was ever planned.


Ah no. He swore off A-L repeatedly and only took it because France declared war on Germany and then lost; naturally if you win you're going to take something of value much as the Allies did against Germany in WW1 including territory for countries that didn't even fight (Denmark with Schleswig-Holstein). There was no intention to ever fight France unless France attacked Germany first. Which is what happened.

I didn't say you shouldn't believe what Hitler said in private, it is just that fake documents were inserted into the record for use at the Tribunal at Nuremberg; that even came up at the trial when defense pointed out BS documents that even that biased judiciary thought was too blatant and threw out. But even in private Hitler didn't say he intended to invade France. If you have some document that shows that please post it here and we can go over what was actually said and planned.

I don't have to prove he didn't until you prove that he did; you don't have to prove a negative, but you do have to prove a positive claim like you keep making without evidence.


Full mobilization would have been needed to actually resist the reoccupation, since France needed to send a signal beyond just a handful of forces on hand. Hitler only acted because he knew the French couldn't act:


The financial issues started just on the mere threat of war:


It also didn't help that the French government had fallen and only an interim government was in charge:
From the above link:

Well there's a hell of a lot of assumptions there including some very strange ones. Such as that production in one country would be counted as produced in another. I'm talking about production figures not usage.

Also your wrong about Canada as I mentioned it early on for its industrial production and you having replied about India ignored it initially. I never mentioned its food production until my last post as an additional bonus from it so why you were talking about agricultural production earlier.

Your also continuing to make wild claims, including now that a lot of Nazis documents were forgeries by the allies which I find very hard to believe. Think its more your pro-Nazi bias coming through as you repeatedly blame everybody bar them for their actions.

For instance your again wrong about the Einsatzgruppen , see
Einsatzgruppen#Preparations_for_Operation_Barbarossa for details. Ignoring their earlier use in Poland. Note it mentions that there were instructions being prepared from March 1941 for murders of both Jews and other groups that the Nazis wanted dead.
 
Well there's a hell of a lot of assumptions there including some very strange ones. Such as that production in one country would be counted as produced in another. I'm talking about production figures not usage.

If you can provide numbers that show that US and Canadian purchased aircraft were counted separately in the total output I'd like to see it. A breakdown by types of aircraft that total up to the overall output for 1940 would do the trick.

Beaverbrook became even more determined and made the approach to the Packard Organization in which after lengthy discussions, and the promise of enough money to enlarge the Packard factory, the deal; was signed and America began to built the Rolls Royce Merlin engine.
Aircraft were already being manufactured in Canada, and some in the U.S, and these were being shipped across the Atlantic by the Merchant Navy and the process was slow, and sometimes dangerous because of the U-boat activity. Beaverbrook approached the Air Ministry and proposed to them that the aircraft should be built across the Atlantic and finished to flying condition, then ferried across to Britain where they could be finally fitted out. The Air Ministry objected stating that it was impractical and absurd. Beaverbrook went ahead with the decision anyway without the War Cabinets approval and the Atlantic ferry system came into being. Up until March 1941, 160 aircraft had been ferried across the Atlantic with only one aircraft lost. A remarkable feat.
When Churchill heard of Beaverbrook's actions, and required an explanation as to why he had organized the deal with Packard and the ferry system without the authority of the cabinet, Beaverbrook explained the advantages of aircraft and engines being built outside of Britain. It would relieve many men to do other duties, and it would slow production should manufacturing establishments were damaged by air attacks. Regards the ferrying of aircraft across the Atlantic, it would put an aircraft into the air much quicker than if Britain had to wait the lengthy amount of time it took to cross the ocean, then have to assemble the aircraft here in Britain. Churchill listened and afterwards gave his stamp of approval and all was secured, but emphasized that "we must not upset those at the Air Ministry."

Partially finished US and Canadian built aircraft or parts were assembled in Britain and counted as British production. Likely factory repaired aircraft were counted as new construction as well, much like in other countries.

Facing an aeroplane shortage during the early stages of World War II, in January 1940, the British government established the British Direct Purchase Commission to purchase US planes that would help supplement domestic plane production. By December 1940 British cash orders for aircraft had exceeded $1,200,000,000 with deliveries of 300-350 per month and were expected to reach 500 per month by "early in 1941".[1] The aircraft were supplied unarmed.
Aircraft purchased by the Commission first had to be moved across the border into Canada, due to the US' neutrality laws, it being illegal to transport 'war materials' direct from US ports. Sailing from Halifax, Nova Scotia, smaller aircraft with insufficient range to make the journey across the Atlantic were delivered to the UK by ship as cargo, with the aircraft 'knocked down' into component sections and crated. Upon arrival in the UK crated aircraft were transported to RAF Speke where they were assembled and test flown. Larger aircraft were ferried directly across the Atlantic from RCAF Gander to RAF Prestwick, first by the Atlantic Ferry Organization ("Atfero"), and subsequently by RAF Ferry Command.
So they could be completed in Britain and where then counted as British output.

Of course parts like the Merlin engine were made in the US, used in British assembled fighters, and the fighter was considered British production.

That also leaves out the role of US machine tools in British production.

Also your wrong about Canada as I mentioned it early on for its industrial production and you having replied about India ignored it initially. I never mentioned its food production until my last post as an additional bonus from it so why you were talking about agricultural production earlier.
Whatever, I'm not going to bother arguing with you over a very minor point.

Your also continuing to make wild claims, including now that a lot of Nazis documents were forgeries by the allies which I find very hard to believe. Think its more your pro-Nazi bias coming through as you repeatedly blame everybody bar them for their actions.
I didn't say a lot, I said some, including several of the most critical documents used to establish Hitler's plotting for war.
Are you really claiming that pointing out actual documented history is being pro-Nazi?

The most obvious case was the Obersalzburg speech of August 22nd, of which 4 documents exist that covered the speech. 1 was the original signed and stamped transcript of the meeting (certified in court by admiral Boehm who actually made them and was present at the speech and who criticized the other documents are forgeries), which contains none of the incriminating evidence used by the prosecution at the Nuremberg trials, and 3 other documents, 2 without any markings, typed on the same paper and type writer, and are summaries of the overall speech with no indication where they came from or who produced them, just a hand written date at the top. The 3rd document was a leaked supposed set of notes about the speech given to a British reporter pre-war and most likely came from Canaris; its origins were considered so dubious the prosecution didn't even admit it as evidence. The titles of the documents from the trial are 1014-PS, 798-PS (the two documents mentioned above), and the L-3 which was the leaked copy that was not even admitted as evidence due to the dubious origin and contained the claim that Hitler said something about 'who remembers the Armenians' as a reference to genocidal plans.

The trial transcripts are online if you want to see for yourself the argument about the validity of the documents.

If you really want to did into the guts of the argument there is an annex somewhere online where Boehm even went through the three documents (the official minutes he typed up and were certified) and the other two that no one could really account for and noted the differences, with the unknown origin documents being worded in all sorts of different and more sinister ways, even claiming things that were not in the certified minutes.

Then there was the Hossbach memo, which had a whole dubious history itself and was produced by a member of the German resistance at the behest of General Beck, head of the resistance within the general staff, as evidence to be used against Hitler later. Hossbach produced it 5 days after the meeting from memory and the original was lost, so only a US prosecution produced type written replicate was made and still exists today; in the meantime the original document had been retyped by another resistance member (that copy was lost too), turned over to the British at the end of the war, and later was given to the US. Feel free to research that one yourself.

Also there is the issue of documents like Ciano's diary, which a German translator in Italy during the war who translated between Hitler and Mussolini, Dollman, who also worked for the OSS after the war, wrote in his memoirs about how in captivity in 1945 the British approached him to proof their copy of a 'worked over' version of the diaries. Supposedly the actual details of the effort to 'modify' the diaries is contained in the papers of Dulles, but those papers are not available to the public.

As to the British and US using faked documents during the war:


Britain had an entire black ops/influence operation to get the US into the war with all sorts of dirty tricks and manipulation, including forged documents about supposed Nazi war plans:

If they were willing to use faked documents to get the USA into the war, why wouldn't they use them to prove the war was entirely Hitler's fault?

For instance your again wrong about the Einsatzgruppen , see
Einsatzgruppen#Preparations_for_Operation_Barbarossa for details. Ignoring their earlier use in Poland. Note it mentions that there were instructions being prepared from March 1941 for murders of both Jews and other groups that the Nazis wanted dead.
What exactly are we supposed to glean from that link? I didn't say anything about orders in March 1941 for the extermination of the Jews or anyone else. Hitler made some speeches about the nature of the coming conflict in the East because it was expected due to ideology it would be one without mercy and proved to be right given the torture and murder of PoWs by the Red Army and NKVD as well as the guerrilla warfare faced.

The only murder orders actually issued pre-invasion was the Commissar Order, which did not apply exclusively to the Einsatzgruppen, but was carried out by the army. There are claims that verbal orders were given at a single SIPO NCO school, but nothing about how that is known or what impact that actually had on the Einsatzgruppen; must not have been much given the orders issued later in July.

In Poland in 1939-41 the Einsatzgruppen didn't mass murder Jews like they did in Russia, they mostly targeted the Polish leadership class in revenge for the killing of roughly 5,000 German Poles and to hinder the Polish resistance, which was already starting during the fighting in September 1939 and would only escalate until the culmination during the Warsaw Uprising:

The next order that came in was the July 2nd one was to execute Communist party officials, partisans, and Jews in government posts...which pretty much falls into the execute Communist party officials part of the order.

On July 8th the order was given to treat all Jews as partisans and the fighting age males were to be shot where found.

July 17th the order was given to shoot Jewish Red Army PoWs and Central Asians.

Why would they wait to issue those orders in July if the plan all along had been to massacre Jews? There were a series of escalating orders that specifically mentioned partisans, as the guerrilla war in the rear areas of the advance had gotten out of control.

If you want to actually read translated copies of the secret reports the Einsatzgruppen sent back from the front they are available and you can see what they were up to and it seems they were focused on fighting guerrilla activity and sabotage.
They were undoubtedly killing lots of innocent people in the process as happens in any guerrilla war (Vietnam and Korea for some examples of the US massacring innocent civilians), but it is also likely that several of those they were shooting were actually agents or supporters of agents of the Soviet regime.

The Chief of the Security Police and the SD
Berlin
July 30, 1941
45 copies
Russian-Poland
The Commander of the security police and the SD in krakow reports from the occupied territories:
I. Activity report:
At the time of the report, another 416 persons, most of them Jews, were shot because of Communist activity, such as Communist commissars in the Red Army, murderers of Ukrainians who had nationalistic views or as agents of the NKVD. More than 1,000 persons were arrested because of similar offences or for lootings, gang-raids, etc.
The offices of the party committees, NKVD and border guard were constantly searched. Prior to their retreat, the Russians were able to destroy or take with them in some cases all of their documents. Some of the files and maps were seized and are still being evaluated. A gun repairshop of the NKVD with 1,000 guns, 2 H.M.G.'s, and 70 boxes with ammunition, was discovered in Lvov and removed. The searches for NKVD agents are becoming more and more difficult as they are constantly changing their quarters.
II. Situation report
(former Russian-Poland)
Jews:
Behavior continues to be offensive and provocative. In the rear areas, some of the Jews who had fled are returning. Illicit trading is stopped, markets in smaller towns are full of Jews hoarding. A "Jewish Community" has been established in Lvov by an official order. Their task: taxation, registration of Jewish population, and organization of social self-help.
Reports of the Einsatzgruppen and kommandos:Einsatzgruppe CLocation: Zhitomir
Reports:
Arson is still frequent. In agreement with General Reinhardt and with German Army support a major action was carried out which ended with the arrest of 200 Communists and Jews. After having established the personal data and examining the cases, 180 Communists and Jews were shot. The interrogations have again shown that, like in other towns, the important personalities are no longer there. It is, however, possible that for the time being, Jews in particular remain in hiding in the surrounding areas of the town. They will be caught when the villages are systematically searched in the near future.
A 12-year-old Jew was brought forward who admitted to having set fire to a whole street. He admitted during the investigation that his parents and a third person had incited him.
According to a report of EK 4a constant sabotage activity is going on in Zwiahel (Novograd-Volynskiy). The German Army now drives all the civilians together and, as retaliatory measures, carries out executions. In cooperation with the German Army and the Ukrainians, 34 political commissars, agents, etc. were plucked from civil-prisoner camps. In the meantime, they have been finished off. Two of them pretended to have important information about an arms cache in the forest. However, it became obvious on the way there that the two Russians intended to deliver the Kommando into the hands of the Russians and that they did not mean to locate the cache at all. Thereupon the two were shot on the spot. A short time later, we could observe about 100 Russians fleeing hurriedly into the forest. On the march back, a large arms cache was actually discovered.
In Proskurov the entire documentation is either destroyed or removed. All officials have disappeared. 22 political prisoners were found dead, they were obviously starved in a cellar. Many Ukrainians and Poles have been deported.

Considering the situation, the relationship of Volkdeutsche [ethnic Germans] towards the Ukrainians was good. There exists, however, a pronounced lack of confidence on the part of the Volkdeutsche towards the Ukrainians. This rests on the fact that they are and will be a minority in the future.

Executions:

Proskurov - 146; Vinnista - 146; Berdichev - 148; Shepetovka - 17; Zhitomir - 41; Khorostov - 30.

In this last place, 100 Jews were slain by the population.

Then of course later on their security operations evolved into wanton mass slaughter of innocent civilians from late July on, but even there it was linked to the food problem:
In Götz Aly's book 'Final Solution': Nazi Population Policy and the Murder of the European Jews, Aly points to a very specific proposal by Rolf-Heinz Höppner, who at the time was simply an SS-Obersturmbannführer (or an SS Officer).[2] This letter written by Höppner was sent to Adolf Eichmann about a viable solution to solve the Jewish question. In a portion of the letter he wrote:
There is a danger that, in the coming winter, it will become impossible to feed all the Jews. It must seriously be considered whether the most humane solution is to finish off the Jews unfit for labour through some fast-acting means. This would definitely be more pleasant than letting them starve to death.[3]
The letter, which was sent on July 16, 1941,[4] is one that functionalists arguing the bottom-up approach utilize as evidence. Aly goes deeper and explains that the letter had not only been written by Höppner, but it had also been discussed at a lower level.[5]
 
If you can provide numbers that show that US and Canadian purchased aircraft were counted separately in the total output I'd like to see it. A breakdown by types of aircraft that total up to the overall output for 1940 would do the trick.




Partially finished US and Canadian built aircraft or parts were assembled in Britain and counted as British production. Likely factory repaired aircraft were counted as new construction as well, much like in other countries.



So they could be completed in Britain and where then counted as British output.

Of course parts like the Merlin engine were made in the US, used in British assembled fighters, and the fighter was considered British production.

That also leaves out the role of US machine tools in British production.

No actually you need to show some evidence to support your own assumption. As the link you supply showed only relatively small numbers of a/c were involved in the transit over the Atlantic so probably even less were involved in the previous year [1940]. Without that there is no reason to assume British production is anything but British production. American machine tools may have helped British production but that's still production inside Britain.


Whatever, I'm not going to bother arguing with you over a very minor point.

A considerable source of production that countered your argument isn't a minor point.

I didn't say a lot, I said some, including several of the most critical documents used to establish Hitler's plotting for war.
Are you really claiming that pointing out actual documented history is being pro-Nazi?

The most obvious case was the Obersalzburg speech of August 22nd, of which 4 documents exist that covered the speech. 1 was the original signed and stamped transcript of the meeting (certified in court by admiral Boehm who actually made them and was present at the speech and who criticized the other documents are forgeries), which contains none of the incriminating evidence used by the prosecution at the Nuremberg trials, and 3 other documents, 2 without any markings, typed on the same paper and type writer, and are summaries of the overall speech with no indication where they came from or who produced them, just a hand written date at the top. The 3rd document was a leaked supposed set of notes about the speech given to a British reporter pre-war and most likely came from Canaris; its origins were considered so dubious the prosecution didn't even admit it as evidence. The titles of the documents from the trial are 1014-PS, 798-PS (the two documents mentioned above), and the L-3 which was the leaked copy that was not even admitted as evidence due to the dubious origin and contained the claim that Hitler said something about 'who remembers the Armenians' as a reference to genocidal plans.

The trial transcripts are online if you want to see for yourself the argument about the validity of the documents.

I plowed through the 1st 3rd of that and it mentions some documents being refused use but gives no reason for that happening. It also shows Raider admitting to being a hard line anti-Semite and about the last section I read was where he supported the invasion of the rump Czech state without excuse in March 1939.


If you really want to did into the guts of the argument there is an annex somewhere online where Boehm even went through the three documents (the official minutes he typed up and were certified) and the other two that no one could really account for and noted the differences, with the unknown origin documents being worded in all sorts of different and more sinister ways, even claiming things that were not in the certified minutes.

Then there was the Hossbach memo, which had a whole dubious history itself and was produced by a member of the German resistance at the behest of General Beck, head of the resistance within the general staff, as evidence to be used against Hitler later. Hossbach produced it 5 days after the meeting from memory and the original was lost, so only a US prosecution produced type written replicate was made and still exists today; in the meantime the original document had been retyped by another resistance member (that copy was lost too), turned over to the British at the end of the war, and later was given to the US. Feel free to research that one yourself.

Also there is the issue of documents like Ciano's diary, which a German translator in Italy during the war who translated between Hitler and Mussolini, Dollman, who also worked for the OSS after the war, wrote in his memoirs about how in captivity in 1945 the British approached him to proof their copy of a 'worked over' version of the diaries. Supposedly the actual details of the effort to 'modify' the diaries is contained in the papers of Dulles, but those papers are not available to the public.

On the Hossbach memo is "as evidence to be used against Hitler later." backed by any evidence or simply an assumption on your part? Checking on-line there Hitler himself distained minutes and other records but it makes sense that other members of the meeting, especially if they disagreed with Hitler's plans would make copies if only to try and cover their own backs.

Do you have any information on Ciano's claims?

I know that Britain has a mission at the embassy in Washington to counter Germany propaganda and get across the British message. That was pretty much standard practice.

What exactly are we supposed to glean from that link? I didn't say anything about orders in March 1941 for the extermination of the Jews or anyone else. Hitler made some speeches about the nature of the coming conflict in the East because it was expected due to ideology it would be one without mercy and proved to be right given the torture and murder of PoWs by the Red Army and NKVD as well as the guerrilla warfare faced.

The only murder orders actually issued pre-invasion was the Commissar Order, which did not apply exclusively to the Einsatzgruppen, but was carried out by the army. There are claims that verbal orders were given at a single SIPO NCO school, but nothing about how that is known or what impact that actually had on the Einsatzgruppen; must not have been much given the orders issued later in July.

Let's see what it actually says:

[/QUOTE]On 13 March 1941, in the lead-up to Operation Barbarossa, the planned invasion of the Soviet Union, Hitler dictated his "Guidelines in Special Spheres re: Directive No. 21 (Operation Barbarossa)". Sub-paragraph B specified that Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler would be given "special tasks" on direct orders from the Führer, which he would carry out independently.[32][33] This directive was intended to prevent friction between the Wehrmacht and the SS in the upcoming offensive.[32] Hitler also specified that criminal acts against civilians perpetrated by members of the Wehrmacht during the upcoming campaign would not be prosecuted in the military courts, and thus would go unpunished.[34]

In a speech to his leading generals on 30 March 1941, Hitler described his envisioned war against the Soviet Union. General Franz Halder, the Army's Chief of Staff, described the speech:

Struggle between two ideologies. Scathing evaluation of Bolshevism, equals antisocial criminality. Communism immense future danger ... This a fight to the finish. If we do not accept this, we shall beat the enemy, but in thirty years we shall again confront the Communist foe. We don't make war to preserve the enemy ... Struggle against Russia: Extermination of Bolshevik Commissars and of the Communist intelligentsia ... Commissars and GPU personnel are criminals and must be treated as such. The struggle will differ from that in the west. In the east harshness now means mildness for the future.[35]

Though General Halder did not record any mention of Jews, German historian Andreas Hillgruber argued that because of Hitler's frequent contemporary statements about the coming war of annihilation against "Judeo-Bolshevism", his generals would have understood Hitler's call for the destruction of the Soviet Union as also comprising a call for the destruction of its Jewish population.[35] The genocide was often described using euphemisms such as "special tasks" and "executive measures"; Einsatzgruppe victims were often described as having been shot while trying to escape.[36] In May 1941, Heydrich verbally passed on the order to murder the Soviet Jews to the SiPo NCO School in Pretzsch, where the commanders of the reorganised Einsatzgruppen were being trained for Operation Barbarossa.[37] In spring 1941, Heydrich and the First Quartermaster of the Wehrmacht Heer, General Eduard Wagner, successfully completed negotiations for co-operation between the Einsatzgruppen and the German Army to allow the implementation of the "special tasks".[38] Following the Heydrich-Wagner agreement on 28 April 1941, Field Marshal Walther von Brauchitsch ordered that when Operation Barbarossa began, all German Army commanders were to immediately identify and register all Jews in occupied areas in the Soviet Union, and fully co-operate with the Einsatzgruppen.[39]

In further meetings held in June 1941 Himmler outlined to top SS leaders the regime's intention to reduce the population of the Soviet Union by 30 million people, not only through direct murder of those considered racially inferior, but by depriving the remainder of food and other necessities of life.[40]
[/QUOTE]

I have highlighted the details referring to murders of Jews. Other bits make clear the intent to murder millions of other people, both directly and by deliberate starvation. You yourself admit that large numbers were murdered but quote excuses about partisan activity and the like. Given the the bulk of those murdered were elderly, women and children that excuse is very thin. Especially since you yourself have claimed that partisan activity was minimal - Belarus aside - until the Red Army advanced forward in the last year or so of the war.

In Poland in 1939-41 the Einsatzgruppen didn't mass murder Jews like they did in Russia, they mostly targeted the Polish leadership class in revenge for the killing of roughly 5,000 German Poles and to hinder the Polish resistance, which was already starting during the fighting in September 1939 and would only escalate until the culmination during the Warsaw Uprising:

No in Poland the main target were the Polish middle classes and interlectuals to try and deny the Poles any likely leaders for resistance. This occur from the start of the conquest. The alleged murder of ~5,000 German even if it had occurred would have been no excuse for the murder of tens of thousands of other people. Also it seems odd that you think it wrong for a people occupied by a murderous dictatorship intent on enslaving them should even consider resistance.

The next order that came in was the July 2nd one was to execute Communist party officials, partisans, and Jews in government posts...which pretty much falls into the execute Communist party officials part of the order.

On July 8th the order was given to treat all Jews as partisans and the fighting age males were to be shot where found.

July 17th the order was given to shoot Jewish Red Army PoWs and Central Asians.

Why would they wait to issue those orders in July if the plan all along had been to massacre Jews? There were a series of escalating orders that specifically mentioned partisans, as the guerrilla war in the rear areas of the advance had gotten out of control.

If you want to actually read translated copies of the secret reports the Einsatzgruppen sent back from the front they are available and you can see what they were up to and it seems they were focused on fighting guerrilla activity and sabotage.
They were undoubtedly killing lots of innocent people in the process as happens in any guerrilla war (Vietnam and Korea for some examples of the US massacring innocent civilians), but it is also likely that several of those they were shooting were actually agents or supporters of agents of the Soviet regime.


Then of course later on their security operations evolved into wanton mass slaughter of innocent civilians from late July on, but even there it was linked to the food problem:

If the order was to shoot all males of fighting age why were others slaughtered? Also again their alleging partisan resistance excused mass murder but your repeatedly said there was little such partisan activity.
 
What exactly was the point of shooting Central Asians? The Nazis were not anti-Muslim to my knowledge--were they?
AFAIK it is claimed that since they could be Jews trying to pass themselves off as Central Asians it was best to shoot everyone. And I'm sure racism played a part, because later in the war there was a lot of racist propaganda about 'asiatic' soldiers and their brutality.
 
AFAIK it is claimed that since they could be Jews trying to pass themselves off as Central Asians it was best to shoot everyone. And I'm sure racism played a part, because later in the war there was a lot of racist propaganda about 'asiatic' soldiers and their brutality.

I know that some Jews actually did try presenting as Muslims in an attempt to save themselves from the Nazis. Muslims, like Jews, were also circumcised. But also that these attempts generally failed. Still, if that was the Nazis' fear, why not shoot all Muslims rather than only shooting Central Asians?
 
I know that some Jews actually did try presenting as Muslims in an attempt to save themselves from the Nazis. Muslims, like Jews, were also circumcised. But also that these attempts generally failed. Still, if that was the Nazis' fear, why not shoot all Muslims rather than only shooting Central Asians?
🤷‍♂️
Nazis gonna inconsistently racist?
 
No actually you need to show some evidence to support your own assumption.
As the link you supply showed only relatively small numbers of a/c were involved in the transit over the Atlantic so probably even less were involved in the previous year [1940]. Without that there is no reason to assume British production is anything but British production. American machine tools may have helped British production but that's still production inside Britain.
I did, you're just refusing to accept it.
Production that would have been impossible without American material. That's the point. It isn't simply about whole aircraft.
But then I gather no matter what I provide you'll claim it isn't good enough because it doesn't meet your unnamed criteria.

A considerable source of production that countered your argument isn't a minor point.
:rolleyes:
Case in point.

I plowed through the 1st 3rd of that and it mentions some documents being refused use but gives no reason for that happening. It also shows Raider admitting to being a hard line anti-Semite and about the last section I read was where he supported the invasion of the rump Czech state without excuse in March 1939.
And that has what to do with forged documents? I explained what I was talking about and you have gone off talking about Rader (Raider is not the spelling of his name and I didn't mention anything about him).

I had assumed you'd have followed the part at the beginning that talked about the discussion of the documents on the previous day and clicked the link to the previous day to see. Anyway here is the link:

Here are some of the relevant parts from the original link since it discusses the withdrawal of the L-3 document I mentioned and the issues with the other documents lacking any markings:
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I wanted to say this only because it is unpleasant to have the American Delegation misunderstand my motion concerning the document. I make no charges concerning the manner in which the document was found, I merely say that it is undecided among which papers it was found. It came to my attention that Mr. Dodd treated the three documents concerned in quite the same way, whereas Mr. Alderman on Page 188 of the record (Volume II, Page 286), states that one of these three documents, L-3, was evidently not in order because of its doubtful origin. And therefore he withdrew the document.
DR. SIEMERS: There is another key document, that is, Document 789-PS, Exhibit USA-23, the very long speech made by Hitler on 23 November 1939 before the commanders-in-chief.

The document, Mr. President, is in Document Book 10a on Page 261. This is again a Hitler speech where there is no indication of who recorded it. Signature and date are missing.

Now for the previous day when the documents were discussed further with the largest chunk of discussion, most relevant parts bolded:
DR. SIEMERS: Now I come to the third key document-namely, Hitler's speech before the commanders-in-chief on 22 August 1939, at Obersalzberg. There are two documents: Document 1014-PS and Document 798-PS. Document 1014-PS is Exhibit USA-30, in Raeder Document Book 10a, Page 269; and Document 798-PS is Exhibit USA-29, in Document Book 10a, Page 266. In regard to this Document 1014-PS, which I have here in the original in the form submitted by the Prosecution, I should like to make a formal request. This Number 1014-PS was read into the record in the afternoon session of 26 November 1945 (Volume II, Page 286). I object to the use of this document. I request that this document be stricken from the trial record for the following reason...

THE PRESIDENT: What document are you speaking about now, 1014-PS?

DR. SIEMERS: In Raeder Document Book 10a, Page 269, Exhibit USA-30.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, what are your reasons?

DR. SIEMERS: The deficiencies which were already mentioned in the other transcripts are much greater here. This document is nothing but two pieces of paper headed "Second Speech by the Fuehrer, on 22 August 1939." The original has no heading, has no file number, no diary number, and no notice that it is secret; no signature, no date, no...

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to look at the original. Yes, Dr. Siemers.

DR. SIEMERS: It has no date, no signature-in the original in the folder, it has no indication of where the document comes from. It is headed "Second Speech..." although it is certain that on this date Hitler made only one speech, and it is hardly 1 1/2 pages long, although . . .

THE PRESIDENT: When you say it has no date, it is part of the document itself which says that it is the second speech of the Fuehrer on the 22d of August 1939.

DR. SIEMERS: I said, Mr. President, it has a heading but no date.

THE PRESIDENT: But you said it has no date.

DR. SIEMERS: It has no date as to when these notes were put in writing. It has only the date of when the speech is supposed to have been made. On all documents which the Prosecution submitted, also in the case of minutes, you will find the date of the session and the date on which the minutes were set up; also the place where the minutes were set up, the name of the person who set it up, an indication that it is secret or something like that. Furthermore, it is certain that Hitler spoke for 2 1/2 hours. I believe it is generally known that Hitler spoke very fast. It is quite out of the question that the minutes could be 1 1/2 pages long if they are to give the meaning and the content, at least to some extent, of a speech which lasted 2 1/2 hours. It is important-I may then refer to still another point. I will submit the original of Document 798-PS afterwards. I am no expert on handwriting or typewriters, but I notice that this document, which is also not signed, whose origin we do not know, is written on the same paper with the same typewriter.

THE PRESIDENT: You say we do not know where it has come from-it is a captured document covered by the affidavit which was made with reference to all other captured documents.

DR. SIEMERS: Well, but I would be grateful to the Prosecution if, in the case of such an important document, the Prosecution would be kind enough in order to determine the actual historical facts to indicate more exactly where it originates. Because it is not signed by Schmundt or Hossbach or anyone and has no number, it is only loose pages.

......

DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, Mr. Dodd just pointed out that my objection comes rather late. I believe I recall correctly that repeated objections were raised...

THE PRESIDENT: I think it was I who pointed it out, not Mr. Dodd.

DR. SIEMERS: Excuse me. I believe I recall correctly that the Defense on several occasions raised objection during the Prosecution's case, and it was said that all statements could be made during the Defense's case at a later time-namely, when it is the defense counsel's turn to speak.

THE PRESIDENT: I only meant that it might not be possible at this stage to find out exactly where the document came from, whereas, if the question had been asked very much earlier in the Trial, it might have been very much easier. That is all I meant. Have you anything more to add upon why, in your opinion, this document should be stricken from the record?

DR. SIEMERS: I should like to point out, Mr. President, that I do not do it for formal reasons but rather for a very substantial reason. Most important words in this document have constantly been repeated by the Prosecution during these 5 or 6 months- namely, the words "Destruction of Poland, main objective... Aim: elimination of vital forces, not arrival at a certain line." These words were not spoken, and such a war aim the German commanders-in-chief would not have agreed to. For that reason it is important to ascertain whether this document is genuine.

In this connection, may I remind the Court that there is a third version of this speech as mentioned in this courtroom-namely? Document L-3, which is even worse than these and which was published by the press of the whole world. Wherever one spoke to anyone, this grotesque and brutal speech was brought up. For that reason it is in the interest of historical truth to ascertain whether Hitler spoke in this shocking way at this time. Actually, I admit he used many expressions which were severe, but he did not use such words, and this is of tremendous significance for the reputation of all the commanders who were present.

Let me point out the next words. They say expressly, "close your hearts against pity, brutal measures." Such words were not used. I will be in a position to prove this by another witness, Generaladmiral Boehm.


I therefore request the Court to decide on my request for striking this document from the record. I should like to point out that the document is mentioned in the record at many points. Should the honorable Court so wish, I would have to look for all the points. I have found only four or five in the German record. If necessary, I would give all the points in the English record. It was submitted on 26 November 1945, afternoon session (Volume II, Page 286).

THE PRESIDENT: I do not think you need bother to do that. You are now only upon the question of whether the document should be stricken from the record. If it were to be stricken from the record, we could find out where it is. Is that all you wish to say?

DR. SIEMERS: One question to Admiral Raeder.

The words which I just read, "brutal measures, elimination of vital forces"-were these words used in Hitler's speech at that time?

RAEDER: In my opinion, no. I believe that the version submitted by Admiral Boehm, which he wrote down on the afternoon of the same day on the basis of his notes, is the version nearest to the truth.
That of course is only part of it, there is an annex where Boehm, who wrote the actual meeting notes, which were actually available at the trial, points out the key differences between the unknown, unmarked documents line by line. If you really want I can look for that and post the link here with the page numbers.

On the Hossbach memo is "as evidence to be used against Hitler later." backed by any evidence or simply an assumption on your part? Checking on-line there Hitler himself distained minutes and other records but it makes sense that other members of the meeting, especially if they disagreed with Hitler's plans would make copies if only to try and cover their own backs.
Fair question. You have to put two and two together, but the pieces are all out there:
In the mid-1930s, Beck started to create his own intelligence network of German military attachés, which he used both to collect and to leak information.[14] Besides military attachés, Beck also recruited civilians for his private intelligence network, the most notable volunteer being Carl Goerdeler.[14]
....
Beck resented Adolf Hitler for his efforts to curb the army's position of influence.[17]
....
Together with the Abwehr chief, Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, and the German Foreign Office's State Secretary, Baron Ernst von Weizsäcker, Beck was a leader of the "antiwar" group in the German government, which was determined to avoid a war in 1938 that it felt Germany would lose. The group was not necessarily committed to the overthrow of the regime but was loosely allied to another, more radical group, the "anti-Nazi" fraction centred on Colonel Hans Oster and Hans Bernd Gisevius, which wanted to use the crisis as an excuse for executing a putsch to overthrow the Nazi regime.[33] The divergent aims between both factions produced considerable tensions.[34]

Canaris and his associates were not necessarily committed to the overthrow of Hitler's regime, but they were loosely allied to another more radical group: the "anti-Nazi" faction, led by Colonel Hans Oster and Hans Bernd Gisevius, which wanted to use the crisis as an excuse for executing a putsch to overthrow the Nazi regime.[50] The most audacious plan contemplated by Canaris, in collaboration with Ewald von Kleist-Schmenzin, was to capture and to unseat Hitler and the entire Nazi Party before the invasion of Czechoslovakia. At that particular moment, Kleist visited Britain secretly and discussed the situation with British MI6 and some high-ranking politicians.[51] There, the name of Canaris became widely known as Kleist's executive hand in the event of an anti-Nazi plot.

From this paper:
Jonathan Wright and Paul Stafford*
Hitler, Britain and the Hoßbach Memorandum
It is natural to assume that Hoßbach also wanted a record to show General Beck, who was not present at the meeting. Given Hoßbach's closeness to Beck, he would have been conversant with Beck's critical attitudes and, in particular,
Beck's anxiety that German military action in Central Europe would set off a general
war, which Germany was bound to lose. On these grounds Beck had already, in May
1937, criticized a contingency plan for military intervention in Austria in the event of
an attempt to restore the Habsburg dynasty. Beck was bound to be acutely interested in
the ideas Hitler expressed on 5 November for German expansion and in particular for
military action against Austria and Czechoslovakia. Hoßbach's record of the statement
did indeed have a profound effect on Beck: he described it as »niederschmetternd« and
drew up a detailed critique of Hitler's arguments, dated 12 November3 6.
There is a related question about Hoßbach's treatment of the incident in his memoirs
of his period as Adjutant to Hitler. The purpose of the memoirs, as Hoßbach explains,
is to provide evidence for the degree of responsibility which should attach to the military leadership for the disastrous course of German policy to 1945. In effect, the purpose is to exonerate Fritsch and, in particular, Beck from blame.
That of course was Hossbach's post-war rationale.
Through Beck Hossbach was in league with the German Resistance ring around Canaris and Oster, which plotted an overthrow of Hitler and were gathering evidence and even leaking some to the foreign press:
In August 1939, Louis P. Lochner contacted the American diplomat Alexander Comstock Kirk and showed him the text, but Kirk was not interested.[2] Lochner next contacted the British diplomat George Ogilvie-Forbes, who indeed transmitted it back to London on 24 August 1939.[3] The Canadian historian Michael Marrus wrote that Lochner almost certainly obtained the text from Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, the chief of the Abwehr (German intelligence), who was present at the Obersalzberg Conference.[4]
The high-ranking German military leaders believed that if Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia or any other country, Britain would declare war on Germany.[52] MI6 was of the same opinion. The British declaration of war would have given the General Staff, it thought, both the pretext and the support for an overthrow of Hitler, which many of them were planning because of the prevailing "anti-war sentiment of the German people".[53]
So the leaks and collection of info were to try and get the British to go to war so they could stage a coup and then provide evidence to justify their actions to the German people so they could avoid being counter-couped.

Do you have any information on Ciano's claims?
As I mentioned the translator Dollman's memoirs:

He has a section in the book that talks about it. I can copy-paste the particulars if you'd like. This post is already getting quite long with the quotes though, so I won't do it now.

I know that Britain has a mission at the embassy in Washington to counter Germany propaganda and get across the British message. That was pretty much standard practice.
Not just there, the main work was done out of New York to influence the media covertly (though we found out later with massive American pro-war faction support) and involved the use of prostitutes to influence isolationist government officials:
Its purpose was to investigate enemy activities, prevent sabotage against British interests in the Americas, and mobilise pro-British opinion in the Americas. As a 'huge secret agency of nationwide news manipulation and black propaganda', the BSC influenced news coverage in the Herald Tribune, the New York Post, The Baltimore Sun, and Radio New York Worldwide.[1] The stories disseminated from the organisation's offices at Rockefeller Center would then be legitimately picked up by other radio stations and newspapers, before being relayed to the American public.[1] Through this, anti-German stories were placed in major American media outlets to help turn public opinion.[2]
Its cover was the British Passport Control Office. BSC benefitted from support given by the chief of the US Office of Strategic Services, William J. Donovan (whose organisation was modelled on British activities), and US President Franklin D. Roosevelt who was staunchly anti-Nazi.[3]

She was one of his sex-pionage agents; in the biographies about her they talk about how she 'worked' isolationist senators on Stephenson's orders.

Let's see what it actually says:
On 13 March 1941, in the lead-up to Operation Barbarossa, the planned invasion of the Soviet Union, Hitler dictated his "Guidelines in Special Spheres re: Directive No. 21 (Operation Barbarossa)". Sub-paragraph B specified that Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler would be given "special tasks" on direct orders from the Führer, which he would carry out independently.[32][33] This directive was intended to prevent friction between the Wehrmacht and the SS in the upcoming offensive.[32] Hitler also specified that criminal acts against civilians perpetrated by members of the Wehrmacht during the upcoming campaign would not be prosecuted in the military courts, and thus would go unpunished.[34]
[/QUOTE]
Ok? He laid out a division of responsibilities without name to prevent friction between the SS and Army.
He separately noted that the coming war would be fought with the utmost savagery by the enemy, so normal rules would not be enforced since it would be necessary to fight partisans, which the Soviets had used effectively in the Russian and Spanish Civil Wars. It wasn't like the Soviets didn't already have a rather nasty reputation before the invasion after all, including poor treatment of prisoners.

In a speech to his leading generals on 30 March 1941, Hitler described his envisioned war against the Soviet Union. General Franz Halder, the Army's Chief of Staff, described the speech:

Though General Halder did not record any mention of Jews, German historian Andreas Hillgruber argued that because of Hitler's frequent contemporary statements about the coming war of annihilation against "Judeo-Bolshevism", his generals would have understood Hitler's call for the destruction of the Soviet Union as also comprising a call for the destruction of its Jewish population.[35] The genocide was often described using euphemisms such as "special tasks" and "executive measures"; Einsatzgruppe victims were often described as having been shot while trying to escape.[36] In May 1941, Heydrich verbally passed on the order to murder the Soviet Jews to the SiPo NCO School in Pretzsch, where the commanders of the reorganised Einsatzgruppen were being trained for Operation Barbarossa.[37] In spring 1941, Heydrich and the First Quartermaster of the Wehrmacht Heer, General Eduard Wagner, successfully completed negotiations for co-operation between the Einsatzgruppen and the German Army to allow the implementation of the "special tasks".[38] Following the Heydrich-Wagner agreement on 28 April 1941, Field Marshal Walther von Brauchitsch ordered that when Operation Barbarossa began, all German Army commanders were to immediately identify and register all Jews in occupied areas in the Soviet Union, and fully co-operate with the Einsatzgruppen.[39]

In further meetings held in June 1941 Himmler outlined to top SS leaders the regime's intention to reduce the population of the Soviet Union by 30 million people, not only through direct murder of those considered racially inferior, but by depriving the remainder of food and other necessities of life.[40]

I have highlighted the details referring to murders of Jews. Other bits make clear the intent to murder millions of other people, both directly and by deliberate starvation. You yourself admit that large numbers were murdered but quote excuses about partisan activity and the like. Given the the bulk of those murdered were elderly, women and children that excuse is very thin. Especially since you yourself have claimed that partisan activity was minimal - Belarus aside - until the Red Army advanced forward in the last year or so of the war.[/QUOTE]
Hillgruber is making far too great a leap of logic, given that 'Judeo-Bolshevism' was understood to be a specific ideology, NOT Jewish people in general. One could make a fair argument that that applied to the shooting of Commissars and Communist government officials however.

For the comment about Heydrich's verbal order at that single NCO school, not a published order (why not a published order given that they published several orders starting in July about killing Jews?), we should see what the particular source claims was said and how we know about said verbal order. Also why would the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen, officers all with PhDs, be trained at an NCO school? That doesn't make sense without a lot of context.
From looking up the article the only source of the supposed comments by Heydrich at the NCO school was Ohelndorf's deposition, which Reginal Pagent, a Labour Party member of parliament and lawyer who defended Manstein in his 1949 trial, pointed out was highly inconsistent, with a changing story every time he was either disposed or put on the witness stand, who was trying to save his skin by saying whatever his interrogators wanted or thought would absolve him of responsibility for the crimes he oversaw (not that it saved him in the end, he hanged in 1951 for his crimes). I've order Pagent's book about the trial and am waiting for it to get the details of the problems with his testimony.

As to the Wagner bit, that was to iron out jurisdiction behind the lines rather than Wagner being told about what the special tasks might consist of. Turns out the majority of it, judging by the Einsatzgruppen reports, was actually more administrative and restoring administration for governance than anything else initially until the partisan war became so intense that they were focused mainly on fighting spies and guerrillas.

Without the context of the registration order it is hard to say for sure what the specific rationale for that was, as they also did the same in Poland and Czechoslovakia, as well as Austria, without resorting to mass murder. Well until 1942 for Polish Jews and later for the Czech ones, but the order for that came in 1942 at the Wannsee Conference and was directly related to the food situation...which brings us to the last point.

The Baeke memo/"Hunger Plan" on the food situation. The original memo doesn't say 30 million people, it says potentially umpteen (literally rendered as "X") millions would die if they seized the entire grain necessary to feed the German army, and if they don't then the war would be lost due to the famine in Europe since 1940. Given the general famine conditions in Europe since 1940 thanks to the poor harvest of that year and the blockade that cut off the ability to import planners in Germany were getting desperate...desperate enough to invade the USSR to seize the food and potentially let millions die. In reality despite the Soviets destroying or taking the majority of food stocks in 1941 as part of the Scorched Earth campaign, plus of course agricultural tools, which basically eliminated any significant stocks of food that could be seized, 'only' about 6-9 million starved to death of which 3 million were PoWs. There was no food to feed them. Per "Stalin's War" the Germans repeatedly tried to deal with the Soviets to treat PoWs under the Geneva convention and get help feeding Soviet PoWs, but was repeatedly ignored. The Soviets viewed PoWs as traitors and treated them thusly, including sending the survivors of the horrible 1941 winter to gulags after the war as traitors.

No in Poland the main target were the Polish middle classes and interlectuals to try and deny the Poles any likely leaders for resistance. This occur from the start of the conquest. The alleged murder of ~5,000 German even if it had occurred would have been no excuse for the murder of tens of thousands of other people.
It wasn't alleged, it was based on secret internal investigations. The Nazis inflated that to 50,000 for propaganda and justification for their own murders. During the invasion the Polish fought hard and did conduct a guerrilla war, so it isn't shocking that the killings began when encountering behind the lines combatants. BTW the US army manual from 1940 also says shooting of hostages in retaliation for guerrilla war is consistent with the rules of war:
Regarding hostage taking, the tribunal came to the conclusion that under certain circumstances, hostage taking and even reprisal killings might constitute a lawful course of action against guerilla attacks. In the tribunal's opinion, taking hostages (and killing them in retaliation for guerilla attacks) could be legitimate subject to several conditions.[2] The tribunal also remarked that both the British Manual of Military Law and the U.S. Basic Field Manual (Rules of Land Warfare) permitted the taking of reprisals against a civilian population. (The British manual did not mention killing, but the US manual included killing as a possible reprisal.[3])

Revenge murders though were a crime, especially given the lack of trials for any killing the Poles did.

Also it seems odd that you think it wrong for a people occupied by a murderous dictatorship intent on enslaving them should even consider resistance.
I think it is a bad idea to give an occupying force reasons to kill even more people, as ultimately it is the innocent civilians who end up suffering the most as a result. As we can see with the Czech example the only killings there happened due to resistance activities. Where there was no resistance there were no killings in Czechoslovakia and could have happened in Poland, but it was the hotbed of resistance in Europe:

If the order was to shoot all males of fighting age why were others slaughtered? Also again their alleging partisan resistance excused mass murder but your repeatedly said there was little such partisan activity.
The shootings at that point were confined to anyone engaged in resistance activities, so if women and in some cases children, note they mention a 12 year old who supposedly started deadly fires at the behest of his parents, were involved they were shot. When the July 8th order came in they said shoot men of fighting age, but treat the rest as partisans, which given the body counts in the reports meant they were arrested, but not shot.
Orders that came after that about murdering all Jews is not mentioned, which I assume means it wasn't ordered but decided on locally (see below), but Pogroms by Baltic militia, Ukrainians, and Polish groups killed tens of thousands as soon as the Germans arrived, largely in areas where the NKVD prison massacres happened. I haven't seen a timeline for what the Einsatzgruppen started massacring all men, women, and children. The first major shooting I've seen referenced was July 30th, with the single biggest shooting in September at Baba Yar after the Kiev bombings, which were blamed on the Jews, but really was the work of NKVD sabotage groups when the city fell:

Axis forces, mainly German, occupied Kyiv on 19 September 1941. Between 20 and 28 September, explosives planted by the Soviet secret police caused extensive damage in the city; and on 24 September an explosion rocked Rear Headquarters Army Group South.[16] Two days later, on 26 September, Maj. Gen. Kurt Eberhard, the military governor, and SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, the SS and Police Leader, met at Rear Headquarters Army Group South. There, they made the decision to exterminate the Jews of Kyiv, claiming that it was in retaliation for the explosions.[17] Also present were SS-Standartenführer Paul Blobel, commander of Sonderkommando 4a of Einsatzgruppe C, and his superior, SS-Brigadeführer Dr. Otto Rasch, commander of Einsatzgruppe C. The mass-killing was to be carried out by units under the command of Rasch and Blobel, who were ultimately responsible for a number of atrocities in Soviet Ukraine during the summer and autumn of 1941.
Seems the decision was a local one however, so absent any claims about a specific order to target entire communities (in writing, not affidavits at the Nuremberg trial, which had all sort of problems with accuracy and even some prosecutors involved said it shouldn't be the basis of historical studies), I'm not sure one was specifically issued; rather the commanders of these groups acted on their own, which fits with the 'bottoms up' argument to the Holocaust:
In Götz Aly's book 'Final Solution': Nazi Population Policy and the Murder of the European Jews, Aly points to a very specific proposal by Rolf-Heinz Höppner, who at the time was simply an SS-Obersturmbannführer (or an SS Officer).[2] This letter written by Höppner was sent to Adolf Eichmann about a viable solution to solve the Jewish question. In a portion of the letter he wrote:

There is a danger that, in the coming winter, it will become impossible to feed all the Jews. It must seriously be considered whether the most humane solution is to finish off the Jews unfit for labour through some fast-acting means. This would definitely be more pleasant than letting them starve to death.[3]
The letter, which was sent on July 16, 1941,[4] is one that functionalists arguing the bottom-up approach utilize as evidence. Aly goes deeper and explains that the letter had not only been written by Höppner, but it had also been discussed at a lower level.[5] Götz Aly writes, "Thus it was the lowest ranks of the resettlement apparatus that thought up 'things' which, it was said, 'sometimes [sounded] fantastic'."[6]

Aly is not the only one that argues that the lower ranks were responsible for bringing about The Final Solution—though he is the most recognized. Dan Stone, author of the book Histories of the Holocaust, asserts that "The perpetrators on the ground were not automatons who simply followed instructions from Berlin; they were much worse—active agents who drove the murder process forward at every stage."[7] However, he is less extreme than Götz Aly since he gives the leadership credit for making the process a reality. Stone cites the work of the Einsatzgruppen in the months leading up to the decision to exterminate the Jews.[8] As Timothy D. Snyder, author of the somewhat controversial book Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler and Stalin, describes the situation, Einsatzgruppen were being used as a way to tally up mass shootings of Jews to report back to Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler as a method to continue rising in ranks.[9]
 
I did, you're just refusing to accept it.
Production that would have been impossible without American material. That's the point. It isn't simply about whole aircraft.
But then I gather no matter what I provide you'll claim it isn't good enough because it doesn't meet your unnamed criteria.

You mean you assumed that a/c partially constructed in Canada or components thereof were automatically counted as British production, despite yourself mentioning a source that those were few in number. This was only a fraction of British production. Plus much of this still counts as imperial production.

:rolleyes:
Case in point.

Actually
a) You claimed that the empire produced very little material for the war effort.
b) After I pointed out production in Canada and capacity in India you focused on the latter.
c) When reminded again you claimed I had been talking about food from Canada.
d) When I corrected you again you then claimed, despite raising the point initially, that it wasn't important, or to be accurate "a very minor point".

And that has what to do with forged documents? I explained what I was talking about and you have gone off talking about Rader (Raider is not the spelling of his name and I didn't mention anything about him).

I had assumed you'd have followed the part at the beginning that talked about the discussion of the documents on the previous day and clicked the link to the previous day to see. Anyway here is the link:

Here are some of the relevant parts from the original link since it discusses the withdrawal of the L-3 document I mentioned and the issues with the other documents lacking any markings:



Now for the previous day when the documents were discussed further with the largest chunk of discussion, most relevant parts bolded:

That of course is only part of it, there is an annex where Boehm, who wrote the actual meeting notes, which were actually available at the trial, points out the key differences between the unknown, unmarked documents line by line. If you really want I can look for that and post the link here with the page numbers.

Fair question. You have to put two and two together, but the pieces are all out there:




From this paper:
Jonathan Wright and Paul Stafford*
Hitler, Britain and the Hoßbach Memorandum


That of course was Hossbach's post-war rationale.
Through Beck Hossbach was in league with the German Resistance ring around Canaris and Oster, which plotted an overthrow of Hitler and were gathering evidence and even leaking some to the foreign press:

So the leaks and collection of info were to try and get the British to go to war so they could stage a coup and then provide evidence to justify their actions to the German people so they could avoid being counter-couped. [/QUOTE]

Ah so you were talking about a preceding page rather than linking to that. Skimming through that the key issue is that there wasn't confirmed evidence of their origins, which is different from evidence of them being fabricated.

I mentioned Rader because the bulk of the page you pointed to that I read was about his testimony.

So there were a number of generals that didn't support Hitler's policy of aggressive expansion. That doesn't mean their making things up. Just that they were sane/desperate enough to want to avoid another big war.


As I mentioned the translator Dollman's memoirs:

He has a section in the book that talks about it. I can copy-paste the particulars if you'd like. This post is already getting quite long with the quotes though, so I won't do it now.


Not just there, the main work was done out of New York to influence the media covertly (though we found out later with massive American pro-war faction support) and involved the use of prostitutes to influence isolationist government officials:



She was one of his sex-pionage agents; in the biographies about her they talk about how she 'worked' isolationist senators on Stephenson's orders.

On 13 March 1941, in the lead-up to Operation Barbarossa, the planned invasion of the Soviet Union, Hitler dictated his "Guidelines in Special Spheres re: Directive No. 21 (Operation Barbarossa)". Sub-paragraph B specified that Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler would be given "special tasks" on direct orders from the Führer, which he would carry out independently.[32][33] This directive was intended to prevent friction between the Wehrmacht and the SS in the upcoming offensive.[32] Hitler also specified that criminal acts against civilians perpetrated by members of the Wehrmacht during the upcoming campaign would not be prosecuted in the military courts, and thus would go unpunished.[34]

Ok? He laid out a division of responsibilities without name to prevent friction between the SS and Army.
He separately noted that the coming war would be fought with the utmost savagery by the enemy, so normal rules would not be enforced since it would be necessary to fight partisans, which the Soviets had used effectively in the Russian and Spanish Civil Wars. It wasn't like the Soviets didn't already have a rather nasty reputation before the invasion after all, including poor treatment of prisoners.

I have highlighted the details referring to murders of Jews. Other bits make clear the intent to murder millions of other people, both directly and by deliberate starvation. You yourself admit that large numbers were murdered but quote excuses about partisan activity and the like. Given the the bulk of those murdered were elderly, women and children that excuse is very thin. Especially since you yourself have claimed that partisan activity was minimal - Belarus aside - until the Red Army advanced forward in the last year or so of the war.


Actually he said what he said. That the army could commit criminal acts without punishment. Which they did in large numbers, looting, rape and murder. Killing people who are partisans is NOT a criminal action. Given the racial hatred the Nazis presented in their propaganda its almost certainly what it seems like, a free hand to abuse the civilian population.

Hillgruber is making far too great a leap of logic, given that 'Judeo-Bolshevism' was understood to be a specific ideology, NOT Jewish people in general. One could make a fair argument that that applied to the shooting of Commissars and Communist government officials however.

Or your failing to make one because it suits your purpose. Hitler and the Nazis thought of Bolshevism as a Jewish tool for their aims. As such the primary target was always the Jews. As can be shown by the resources committed to mass murder even to the last days of the war.

For the comment about Heydrich's verbal order at that single NCO school, not a published order (why not a published order given that they published several orders starting in July about killing Jews?), we should see what the particular source claims was said and how we know about said verbal order. Also why would the commanders of the Einsatzgruppen, officers all with PhDs, be trained at an NCO school? That doesn't make sense without a lot of context.
From looking up the article the only source of the supposed comments by Heydrich at the NCO school was Ohelndorf's deposition, which Reginal Pagent, a Labour Party member of parliament and lawyer who defended Manstein in his 1949 trial, pointed out was highly inconsistent, with a changing story every time he was either disposed or put on the witness stand, who was trying to save his skin by saying whatever his interrogators wanted or thought would absolve him of responsibility for the crimes he oversaw (not that it saved him in the end, he hanged in 1951 for his crimes). I've order Pagent's book about the trial and am waiting for it to get the details of the problems with his testimony.

Possibly or it could be that the Nazis just didn't want to leave records of their intentions and dirty work. Either way could be the case.


As to the Wagner bit, that was to iron out jurisdiction behind the lines rather than Wagner being told about what the special tasks might consist of. Turns out the majority of it, judging by the Einsatzgruppen reports, was actually more administrative and restoring administration for governance than anything else initially until the partisan war became so intense that they were focused mainly on fighting spies and guerrillas.

This is the partisan war that elsewhere you have said only became significant in 1944 onward as the Red army advanced. Not very convincing. Why have groups of executors doing administration?

Without the context of the registration order it is hard to say for sure what the specific rationale for that was, as they also did the same in Poland and Czechoslovakia, as well as Austria, without resorting to mass murder. Well until 1942 for Polish Jews and later for the Czech ones, but the order for that came in 1942 at the Wannsee Conference and was directly related to the food situation...which brings us to the last point.

Your bringing up that myth again.

The Baeke memo/"Hunger Plan" on the food situation. The original memo doesn't say 30 million people, it says potentially umpteen (literally rendered as "X") millions would die if they seized the entire grain necessary to feed the German army, and if they don't then the war would be lost due to the famine in Europe since 1940. Given the general famine conditions in Europe since 1940 thanks to the poor harvest of that year and the blockade that cut off the ability to import planners in Germany were getting desperate...desperate enough to invade the USSR to seize the food and potentially let millions die. In reality despite the Soviets destroying or taking the majority of food stocks in 1941 as part of the Scorched Earth campaign, plus of course agricultural tools, which basically eliminated any significant stocks of food that could be seized, 'only' about 6-9 million starved to death of which 3 million were PoWs. There was no food to feed them. Per "Stalin's War" the Germans repeatedly tried to deal with the Soviets to treat PoWs under the Geneva convention and get help feeding Soviet PoWs, but was repeatedly ignored. The Soviets viewed PoWs as traitors and treated them thusly, including sending the survivors of the horrible 1941 winter to gulags after the war as traitors.

Once again your trying to blame everybody bar the Germans for their actions. Also repeating the myth that Hitler only invaded the Soviet Union because the 'evil' Brits refused to surrender. Given how slow the German advance wasn't its idiotic to claim that the Soviets were able to practice a burnt earth policy. Ditto with the idea that with the best agricultural land in the USSR already under German occupation it should be up to the Soviets to supply food to their attackers. Similarly the death of so many POWs wasn't just due to lack of food but also the horrendous way they were treated. That Stalin treated the survivors after the war so badly is appalling but nothing to do with German atrocities during the war.


It wasn't alleged, it was based on secret internal investigations. The Nazis inflated that to 50,000 for propaganda and justification for their own murders. During the invasion the Polish fought hard and did conduct a guerrilla war, so it isn't shocking that the killings began when encountering behind the lines combatants. BTW the US army manual from 1940 also says shooting of hostages in retaliation for guerrilla war is consistent with the rules of war:


Revenge murders though were a crime, especially given the lack of trials for any killing the Poles did.


I think it is a bad idea to give an occupying force reasons to kill even more people, as ultimately it is the innocent civilians who end up suffering the most as a result. As we can see with the Czech example the only killings there happened due to resistance activities. Where there was no resistance there were no killings in Czechoslovakia and could have happened in Poland, but it was the hotbed of resistance in Europe:

Secret investigations established by the killers. Do we have any evidence that there was any real truth behind it?

Its not surprising that the Poles did what they could given how horrendously they were treated from the start. I think your putting the cart before the horse.

The shootings at that point were confined to anyone engaged in resistance activities, so if women and in some cases children, note they mention a 12 year old who supposedly started deadly fires at the behest of his parents, were involved they were shot. When the July 8th order came in they said shoot men of fighting age, but treat the rest as partisans, which given the body counts in the reports meant they were arrested, but not shot.
Orders that came after that about murdering all Jews is not mentioned, which I assume means it wasn't ordered but decided on locally (see below), but Pogroms by Baltic militia, Ukrainians, and Polish groups killed tens of thousands as soon as the Germans arrived, largely in areas where the NKVD prison massacres happened. I haven't seen a timeline for what the Einsatzgruppen started massacring all men, women, and children. The first major shooting I've seen referenced was July 30th, with the single biggest shooting in September at Baba Yar after the Kiev bombings, which were blamed on the Jews, but really was the work of NKVD sabotage groups when the city fell:


Seems the decision was a local one however, so absent any claims about a specific order to target entire communities (in writing, not affidavits at the Nuremberg trial, which had all sort of problems with accuracy and even some prosecutors involved said it shouldn't be the basis of historical studies), I'm not sure one was specifically issued; rather the commanders of these groups acted on their own, which fits with the 'bottoms up' argument to the Holocaust:

Any evidence of this other than the statement of the killers? Who of course have no reason to hide what their doing.:p Its also interesting how so many tens of thousands of Jews managed to get so many weapons from.

So your saying it was all the actions of low level figures who were unaffected by the repeated hate rants by the Nazi hierarchy and the clear encouragement that they could commit any crimes without any action being taken against them. Sounds very similar to Stalin's instructions that Red Army units advancing through eastern Europe and into Germany could send supplies back to their families, which of course wasn't an encouragement to loot. :p
 

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