Fuck losing with grace and being civil to people who'd see us in gulags.
Trump Post Election News.
- Thread starter Free-Stater 101
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strunkenwhite
Well-known member
I'm not sure what you mean here; they passed Obamacare with 60 votes.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
I suspect he refers to how in between it passing the house and the senate, they lost sufficient votes to make it filibuster-proof and so pushed it through the senate with the plan of amending it later because they were worried it could be filibustered if they did any modifications since it would go back to the house.
How Many Republicans Voted for Obamacare?
The Affordable Care Act, also called Obamacare, received no Republican votes in either the Senate or the House of Representatives when it was passed in 2009. In the Senate, the bill was passed with a total of 60 votes, or 58 Democratic Party votes and 2 Independent Party votes. The House passed...
www.reference.com
Personally I don't find that particularly scummy (by Washington standards) but more like using political strategy to win.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
You're probably right, except you have it backwards: the Senate is the side vulnerable to filibusters, so the House must have been the side that passed it as-is to avoid bouncing it back to a Senate they were no longer confident would be willing to pass the bill.
Airedale260
Well-known member
Okay so as I was referring to the general, I ignored the primary. Basically, what I found in the general was that Trump's endorsement in a lot of cases wasn't a vote-winner *or* a deal-breaker on the face of it, because most of the candidates he endorsed were both 1) incumbents and 2) in safe GOP districts, and most of the rest were open seat but again, still safe R.
Of the 29 who weren't...three won, about six were in heavy Democrat districts with particularly notable Democrats (Maxine Waters, Ilhan Omar, you get the idea), and the rest narrowly lost. Though there was one (Madison Cawthorn) who defeated the Trump-backed candidate in NC-11 and wasn't endorsed until the general. And a lot of the districts in question were ones that the GOP only lost in 2018 after holding them for several prior cycles.
It's not so much "lost because they were endorsed by Trump" per se, though I can't find the story that the candidate I was thinking of (from Virginia I believe), so much as it is general dissatisfaction with Trump himself.
FTFY. Looking over the actual electoral results, Trump himself appears to have had little impact, and in fact 2020 saw a huge spike in split ticket voting for the first time in several cycles, i.e., people voted for Biden but also voted for GOPers for the House and Senate. More on this in a second.
Not really. I mean, yes, the GOP is realigning because of the reality that the base has been ignored for a while and reacted to a guy who actually courted their votes. HOWEVER...
...the real issue is Trump THE INDIVIDUAL. Not his policies. Again, this is what I keep trying to point out. Despite the love he gets on this board, most Americans (even people who support his policies) actually can't stand the man and would rather he himself just go away and let someone with similar views but without the baggage (the non-stop tweets, stupid comments, and pointless provocations) take the reins.
But Trump, being Trump, is a narcissist and patently incapable of doing so. He HAS to be the center of attention. His track record is that he demands loyalty to him, but he doesn't return it. I don't mean "You have failed me" I mean he asks the literal impossible (like trying to order unconstitutional actions) and then gets pissy when people tell him no.
Not to mention the whole fiasco of January 6th which, whether you like it or not, much of the country does in fact blame him for causing. The average American doesn't actually like violence whether it's Antifa or QANon or whomever...they disapprove of all of them.
And the fact that Trump is busy holding grudges against people who don't back him and actively trying to undermine them (despite them being concerned more about their actual voters, that is, the people *who actually decide whether they hold office*) because his feelings were hurt.
My point is, infighting in the party only helps the Democrats. I, for one, would prefer to see the Republicans *win*, but so long as Trump keeps stirring shit up rather than letting the focus stay on Biden's various fuckups, that isn't going to happen.
Trump's massive popularity on here does not reflect the real world any more than certain other sites' hatred of him reflects it. But the fact of the matter is, Trump is disliked far more than he's liked, and if the GOP is going to make a comeback in 2022 and 2024, Trump is going to have to be a team player. As Trump is anything BUT a team player, though, you can see why I'm very worried about the GOP's chances.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
I know this may not be super key to your point, but what data are you using to come to this conclusion? I had thought the opposite was true.
The One Char
Well-known member
The delusion that democrats didn't cheat.
Wargamer08
Well-known member
You don't get the kind of raw "Fuck the Media!" energy anywhere else. This has always been his core appeal. He spun a lot of bow ties on traditional GOPs but he energized more people then he lost. You and the rest of twitter and mainsteam media can bitch about his tone all you want, find me another man who fights.
Trump's core mistake was not demanding more loyalty from various appointees in key positions. He didn't build his own political base when he was in office.
Airedale260
Well-known member
Ballotpedia, which lists the various results, along with articles from Politico, the Wall Street Journal, local news, etc.
Gained more than he lost? Well, only if you still think votes were outright changed (pro tip: they weren’t) -Trump managed to piss off people who voted for him in 2016, and while population growth helped him get raw numbers overall, it ultimately didn’t matter considering that not only was the same true for Biden, but also the fact that Trump couldn’t retain people who weren’t already hardcore supporters.
As for this “not demanding enough loyalty” it’s kind of hard to do that when the choice he’s giving them is “back me or back the Constitution but you can’t do both.” Most people aren’t actually narcissists and do love their country so...it actually wasn’t surprising. Especially when Trump gives zero loyalty back. Why should anyone give unconditional loyalty to someone who never returns it? It’s a two way street.
Wargamer08
Well-known member
Ah you’re someone who thinks no cheating took place despite a refusal to do more then recount ballots, when they are not being shredded, and more votes then people. Do be aware though, that you are in the minority of people in general and massively in the minority on the right to think so.
Do note, that almost all of voting changes instituted in the 2020 election where done contrary to most states own constitution. I guess it only counts if it gets rid of a guy that you don’t like because he’s rude and shit to people that literally scream for the death, imprisonments or destruction of people like me. But man, can you believe how mean he was to them?
Airedale260
Well-known member
Wow, so much BS encapsulated here I don’t know where to begin...
But let’s see:
No cheating? No, I think there were some low-level instances, but not enough to actually influence the presidential election. Especially given that every single time Trump’s legal team was told to put up or shut up by the courts, they always did the latter. Not to mention the claims were based on erroneous perceptions, or the fact that the campaign had no clue what it was doing in monitoring them, or what it was looking at.
As far as the states go...oh, it was a mess, I won’t dispute that. But the problem there is, the legislatures wrote the law in such a way as to allow them to play fast and loose with it. Yeah a certain degree of flexibility has to be allowed, but I agree they overdid it. Still, shady but legal is a reality, in fact it’s one Trump of all people has made an art form of.
This “most people think the election was stolen” is BS. Oh, most Republicans do, but like the Democrats, they suspiciously only make such claims when they lose. Wonder why.
I know I’m in the minority on here, but I also know I’m not the minority in the country on this. Unless, of course, you’d care to provide stats showing the majority of the country agrees with you?
Still, say whatever you want about me, I don’t care. What I actually care about is the future and defeating the Democrats. Bitching about the past doesn’t do jack about that.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
There was significant cheating, but the inner party always cheats and the outer party always lets it happen because they are the Washington Generals to the Democrat’s Haarlem Globetrotters.
Trump’s 2020 coalition failed to find enough votes to clear the margin of fraud, despite picking up record Latino and Black working class votes, specifically because the Rust Belt White working class stayed home or flipped to Biden, because Trump failed to get anything done other than Tax cuts and then campaigned as if he repudiated his 2016 platform for the third term of GW Bush.
He not only failed to drain the swamp, he failed to break or even discipline the GOP establishment, nor did he attempt to build his own power base or reward his own loyalists in any meaningful way.
We can only conclude he is either incompetent at rulership and statecraft. Or that he was always grifter looking to exploit the last vestiges of residual patriotism left in heritage amerika.
Trump’s 2020 coalition failed to find enough votes to clear the margin of fraud, despite picking up record Latino and Black working class votes, specifically because the Rust Belt White working class stayed home or flipped to Biden, because Trump failed to get anything done other than Tax cuts and then campaigned as if he repudiated his 2016 platform for the third term of GW Bush.
He not only failed to drain the swamp, he failed to break or even discipline the GOP establishment, nor did he attempt to build his own power base or reward his own loyalists in any meaningful way.
We can only conclude he is either incompetent at rulership and statecraft. Or that he was always grifter looking to exploit the last vestiges of residual patriotism left in heritage amerika.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
I think it's a case of "he didn't realise how deep the rabbit hole went." He thought by winning the rest would just fall into line, but he got that horribly wrong. Granted, I think he was badly influenced by some of his advisors like Jared Kushner (kicking out Bannon was a mistake).
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
Yeah here's the issue with that, there was no time for them to put anything together. Look at the George Floyd situation. The man died in May of last year and they're still trying to get things put together to go to court now, 10 months later. Trump's lawyers had about a month. They had to throw together cases that are normally put together over the course of close to a year, in a few weeks. The moment the election was over they were told it was now moot, can't go back and look at elections that are done, so no point to continuing.
Given how actionable making a claim you can't prove in court is, it's not surprising they couldn't actually put up when they didn't even have time to actually view all the videos. If you demand somebody build an aircraft carrier in two months instead of six years, don't be surprised when they can't guarantee it will float.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
That would be believable except he set up his loyalists to take the fall at the Capitol putsch and then not only abandoned them, threw them under the bus.
It was also because Pence controlled most staffing decisions, and worked to sabotage Trump in many ways.
Where do you think a lot of the 'leaks' came from?
Trump didn't chose Pence, the RNC did, and did so because he was a Swamp Rat who would hinder Trump's agenda if he won.
I was suspicious of Pence for a long time; his actions at the end and what has been revealed sense show why Trump had such a hard time getting things done.
The RNC wanted Trump's base and popularity, but not much of Trump's 'Drain the Swamp' agenda, and they used Pence to make sure Trump couldn't drain the swamp.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Trump specifically told his supporters not to be violent. They might have been die hard loyal to him, but they acted without his consent. It's unfortunate, but there's not much he could have done.
I think only now does Trump understand that in order to govern effectively, he has to beat his own party into line. Which is what he's going to do now by the sounds of it.
DocSolarisReich
Esoteric Spaceman
How about not stabbing his own followers in the back for starters?
If he didn’t have any intention of crossing the rubicon he shouldn’t have lead people there. Admittedly, the 1776 larpers who let themselves be setup for the fall share some blame if you believe in an evil shadow government, why are you taking pictures of yourself and placing them on the internet?
Airedale260
Well-known member
Well, that speaks to two other problems, namely that 1) Trump and Co failed to do their due diligence and setting up an effective program to monitor things and raise issues beforehand -something that was pointed out in the PA case, actually, namely nobody did their jobs. Trump may be all the way at the top but ultimately as the president and the leader of the party it's on him to make sure things are being done the way he wants and staying on top of things. But that isn't how Trump does anything.
The second is that if there are questions, you make sure your case is unimpeachable and work your ass off around the clock to do it. Limited time frames are a given and everyone knew that going in.
As for the George Floyd case, that's because there's no time frame for just how fast they need to get it done. It's actually pretty normal for cases to take that long because there are huge amounts of cases pending from earlier that need to be cleared first, even if they're far less high profile.
But in the end it all comes down to being ready to go beforehand, extensively preparing for any contingency, and not half-assing it because you waited until crunch time to do anything (something, again, that is typical Trump). He usually skates by because he's dealing with people who can't match his resources, so his "whine and whine until I get my way" tactic works for him. When he's up against a peer opponent? Not so much. And that's ultimately what did him in.
The thing is, he didn't do that until well *after* shit had gone down. And only then in a half-hearted manner that had most people calling bullshit because it was pretty clear he didn't care. He'd been busy watching TV hoping they'd actually pull it off. Never mind the fact that if they had it would have brought even more Antifa types out of the woodwork, not to mention mobilizing people who normally *wouldn't* take any action to go out.
He could easily have said "knock it the fuck off, violence has no place here" once reports came in. Or mobilized the national guard or MDW troops. He did neither, and in fact ordered the Pentagon to stand down and stay out. *At best* that means he had no clue of the severity of the crisis, but again, given how crazy things were, mobilizing like that should have been done as a precaution to indicate "Yes I take this seriously." At worst? It means he wanted them to succeed.
Anyway, the long and short of it is, I don't mind a move towards populism and the platform in general, but given everything that's happened, Trump is not the person who's going to be able to succeed going forward.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
A more charitable way to put this is, he uses a business tactic of making court cases so costly and annoying to pursue that his opponents give him sweetheart deals just to make the problem go away. Peer opponent or not, few entities will have enough motivation to spend the years and the money to fight it out. But obviously this doesn't work when the court case is a battle over who gets to be POTUS, money is no object, and hard time limits are in place.