LindyAF
Well-known member
Pretty sure he didn't.
Breaking News Trump Impeachment 2: Electric Boogaloo
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Pretty sure he didn't.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
Hypothetically, just as an innocent man might accept a plea deal for fear of a wrong verdict, an innocent man might accept a pardon.
However, in this case I think pardoning oneself would be challenged, IMO rightly. And then you'd be in trouble for implicitly accepting guilt.
Oh, sorry, I thought we were being serious.
Trump was impeached while in office. Also, impeachments of former officials have been done before.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
His term in office ended on January 20, and the articles of impeachment didn't reach the Senate until January 25. That does not count as "in office", no matter how you try and frame it. And just because it's been done before, that doesn't mean it isn't still unconstitutional.
That was his second impeachment. He was impeached in 2020 as well and was also acquitted.
So it's accurate to say he was impeached while in office.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Yes, but I was specifically talking about his second impeachment, so it's also accurate to say he was impeached while not in office.
LindyAF
Well-known member
I'm not really sure what you guys are arguing about here? Trump didn't pardon himself and as far as I'm aware no one credible has said that he was ever considering pardoning himself. Pardons also aren't relevant to discussions of impeachment, since they specifically don't apply to impeachment.
The question of whether or not a President could hypothetically pardon himself seems pretty removed from this topic.
The question of whether or not a President could hypothetically pardon himself seems pretty removed from this topic.
AFAIK, you cannot 'pre-pardon' yourself for ginned up charges in the future.
People keep acting like Trump not pardoning himself is some big mis-step, when there was nothing to pardon himself for, to begin with.
Him pardoning himself on the way out would have been an admission of guilt of 'something', because you cannot pardon someone who has not committed a crime.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
The idea that you cannot pardon someone of a crime that they have committed but which they have not yet been charged with is absolutely false. Pardons can preempt charges; what they cannot do is preempt the crime itself; i.e. you cannot pardon someone in anticipation of the crime being committed, but you can pardon in anticipation of charges being filed for a crime already committed.
The idea that you cannot issue a preemptive pardon when you believe no crime has been committed but you also believe that wrongful charges may be filed (e.g. after your ability to issue pardons expires) is much more arguable. I am not convinced that you are right but I cannot call it categorically false with the same confidence as above.
Either way, when the person to potentially be pardoned is yourself I believe that's not a legitimate use of the pardon power.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
So what you're saying is that pardoning Michael Flynn was tantamount to admitting that he was guilty of helping Trump collude with Russia.
How is what @Bacle said, making that claim at all? Flynn was charged and convicted with a crime.
He got pardoned for that.
Now if he hadn't been charged and Trump gave him a pre-emptive pardon, maybe. But that's not what happened.
No, the Flynn pardon happened because a DC circuit judge and the Dems had railroaded Flynn into charges and got him 'convicted' in a kangaroo court-type situation.
Flynn had not committed a crime, but was none-the-less charged and convicted because he was a danger to the Dems and way to cause problems for Trump.
What he said.
The democrats do realize that the law of retaliation is a thing and any tactic they use will in time be used against them right?
Should be interesting what republicans can manage to put Biden through if they take back the house and/or senate in 2022
Terthna
Professional Lurker
They probably assume that anyone anyone who would actually want to retaliate is too weak to do so.
At most, it'll just be a repeat of what they put Obama through; not that much, all things considered.
Obama won in a clean and fair election, and the democrats just spent 4 years showing us that it's okay to run sham impeachments...but the GOP might actually have shit on Biden.
It could get interesting for sure
Terthna
Professional Lurker
The problem is whether or not they're willing to use it; which is going to depend on whether or not the RINOs managed to cement their control over the party. It could get interesting, but it could also not.
The entire point was that I was responding to:
So I am posting with this hypothetical scenario in mind.