Time to Shut Down Pornhub

[The Name of Love]

Ah, I get it now; your definition of compromise is when you get everything you want.

If you think that this is a charitable view of what I think is compromise, then you are deluded. I said "It's not something any pro-life person could compromise on." How you read this as "I think compromise means getting everything I want" is a mystery.

There is no convincing argument for someone like you; you've simply dug too deep into your own ideology to ever consider a real compromise.

Or maybe, just maybe, I'm not willing to compromise on this issue because compromise on this issue is literally impossible. Tell me, what could a compromise between pro-life and pro-choice look like? Because what you said was a "compromise" was just a moderate pro-choice position, which isn't morally acceptable by a long shot.

And, I mean, if there's anything to be uncompromising over, it's the murder of infants. Think about what you are asking me. You are asking me to be okay with women killing their own children for reasons that, if applied to adults, would be obviously immoral.

 

[Battlegrinder]

First of all, if they had an age verification system, they wouldn't have had to admit that "yes, we verified a kidnapped girl that was fifteen years old," something they know it was bad. In this case, they have no plausible deniability.

What part of "pornhub verification is meaningless and does nothing" do you not understand? The reason your article, and I assume you, keeps bringing it up is because that's literally the only point you can hold against them and back with any actual evidence, and when the most damaging thing you have is "it's really easy to get this meaningless sticker on pornhub", you have no case. No one cares about pornhub having crappy verification.

I was actually talking about social media websites. I know other porn sites are just as bad.

So aside from some pithy and self-evident comment, what precisely was your point?

 

[The Name of Love]

What part of "pornhub verification is meaningless and does nothing" do you not understand? The reason your article, and I assume you, keeps bringing it up is because that's literally the only point you can hold against them and back with any actual evidence, and when the most damaging thing you have is "it's really easy to get this meaningless sticker on pornhub", you have no case. No one cares about pornhub having crappy verification.



So aside from some pithy and self-evident comment, what precisely was your point?

You seem not to realize that you are making my point for me. "Pornhub verification is meaningless and does nothing" is what we both agree on. Whereas you want to say "it's meaningless, so we should just leave them alone," I say "it's meaningless, it's their fault it's meaningless, and they need to be punished for it." You also don't realize that, if Pornhub's verification does nothing, that means that there are probably tons of underage porn actors on that website. And if you are saying that it can't be fixed, that this is something inherently wrong with Internet porn, then we'll have to have a discussion on how to keep minors out of and away from pornography.

 

[Battlegrinder]

You seem not to realize that you are making my point for me. "Pornhub verification is meaningless and does nothing" is what we both agree on. Whereas you want to say "it's meaningless, so we should just leave them alone," I say "it's meaningless, it's their fault it's meaningless, and they need to be punished for it."

.....do you not know what pornhub verification actually is? It's just a useless little checkmark that says "yes, this user is who they say they are". It's not meaningless because it's so easy to get around, it's meaningless because it doesn't mean or do anything. If she hadn't been verified, she still would have been raped and had dozens of videos of her being raped put up on the site, the fact that she was verified means nothing.

You also don't realize that, if Pornhub's verification does nothing, that means that there are probably tons of underage porn actors on that website.

That's a massive leap in logic, one that you don't have the evidence to support.

And if you are saying that it can't be fixed, that this is something inherently wrong with Internet porn,

I'm saying you need to know what the terms you keep throwing around are before you climb up on your soapbox and start freaking out over meaningless crap.

then we'll have to have a discussion on how to keep minors out of and away from pornography.

We already have a system in place for that, called "parents".

 

[The Name of Love]

Okay, @Battlegrinder, you need to stop being a dogmatist and actually address the arguments I'm making. Otherwise, I'm not going to debate you.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

Okay, @Battlegrinder, you need to stop being a dogmatist and actually address the arguments I'm making. Otherwise, I'm not going to debate you.

...Lemme just put this here

First of all, if they had an age verification system, they wouldn't have had to admit that "yes, we verified a kidnapped girl that was fifteen years old," something they know it was bad. In this case, they have no plausible deniability.

See, this doesn't actually counter my own argument of "give me an age verification system and I'll give you how I'd lie successfully to it" at all.

YOU stop being a dogmatist and address the ONE argument I've made.

 

[The Name of Love]

See, this doesn't actually counter my own argument of "give me an age verification system and I'll give you how I'd lie successfully to it" at all.

Already did.

And if you are saying that it can't be fixed, that this is something inherently wrong with Internet porn, then we'll have to have a discussion on how to keep minors out of and away from pornography.

You replied with:

We already have a system in place for that, called "parents".

Which I take as you not actually being serious. If parents were the system in place to address the issue, then there wouldn't actually be an issue since the parents would be taking care of it.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Okay, @Battlegrinder, you need to stop being a dogmatist and actually address the arguments I'm making. Otherwise, I'm not going to debate you.

What arguments, the one where pornhub easily gives users a meaningless little sticker that you didn't understand the function of is a damning condemnation of them as a company because it's easy to get that sticker, the one where you leap to conclusions based on nothing, or the one where we need to shut down pornhub because some parents don't do a good job raising thier kids?

Regarding your later post, you are aware that I'm not the same person as @ShadowsOfParadox , correct? But speaking of that post:

If parents were the system in place to address the issue, then there wouldn't actually be an issue since the parents would be taking care of it.

That's absurd. Both because kids watching porn is an entirely different issue than them being forced to star in it (the thing you've been going on about for ages here), and because no system works perfectly and failures always happen.

 

[Shipmaster Sane]

I'll never get you free speech types.

I'll never get you "Tyranny as long as I'm comfy" types.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

You replied with:

...take a second look at the names.

And as for your claim regarding it being "something inherently wrong with internet porn", it's something inherently wrong with the INTERNET as a whole.

 

[Strigan44]

Pornhub's system for reporting illegal/non-consensually uploaded content sucks, but at least it exists. Many other porn sites have literally no way to request videos being taken down at all. Additionally, holding a platform legally responsible for the content it hosts outside of cases of negligence is a really bad idea.

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

...So people that were kidnapping girls for sexual slavery posted their shit on pornhub and got caught and the girl was freed and returned to her mother?

...Was this not a good thing? If Pornhub didn't exist its safe to assume the girl would still be kidnapped, and the kidnappers would either just prostituted her out or use far harder to track methods to distribute movies.

The real question here as far as I think is "did Pornhub's existence and current ruleset encouraged her kidnapping in the first place?" and there doesn't seem to be any indication that happened.

 

[The Name of Love]

That's absurd. Both because kids watching porn is an entirely different issue than them being forced to star in it (the thing you've been going on about for ages here), and because no system works perfectly and failures always happen.

Okay, so then why should we have this "system"?

I'll never get you "Tyranny as long as I'm comfy" types.

I don't really believe in tyranny, actually. In fact, I'd say I'm more of a "virtue even if you're not comfy" types.

...take a second look at the names.

And as for your claim regarding it being "something inherently wrong with internet porn", it's something inherently wrong with the INTERNET as a whole.

Could you elaborate?

...So people that were kidnapping girls for sexual slavery posted their shit on pornhub and got caught and the girl was freed and returned to her mother?

...Was this not a good thing? If Pornhub didn't exist its safe to assume the girl would still be kidnapped, and the kidnappers would either just prostituted her out or use far harder to track methods to distribute movies.

The real question here as far as I think is "did Pornhub's existence and current ruleset encouraged her kidnapping in the first place?" and there doesn't seem to be any indication that happened.

It's not safe to assume what you assumed, first of all. Nor am I saying Pornhub caused the kidnapping. What I'm saying is that, through their negligence and laissez-faire attitude, they allowed a kidnapped fifteen year old to be raped on their website.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Okay, so then why should we have this "system"?

Because it mostly works and you have yet to present a viable alternative.

What I'm saying is that, through their negligence and laissez-faire attitude, they allowed a kidnapped fifteen year old to be raped on their website.

That's more than a bit of a stretch. Every website with user generated content and sufficient volume of usage has illegal activity going on that slips through the filters because the traffic volume is too high to individually comb through. There's nothing unique about pornhub's operations that allowed this to happen that a differently organized site would have blocked. Platforms like pornhub are not legally liable for what their users post for exactly that reason.

This is like saying a six sigma complaint firm is negligent because their process still allows a one in a million error rate. It's considered unreasonable to demand perfection even in tightly controlled industrial manufacturing where the firm has total control over virtually every part of the process, let alone a process that's just trying to comb through a massive volume of data looking for anything that might possibly be illegal.

Also, and as unpleasant as this is to say, she was in for a bad time no matter what policy pornhub had in place. There's basically only one reason children get trafficked, sex. No matter where she ended up, this was going to happen her.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

Could you elaborate?

The internet's structure makes it effectively impossible to genuinely be sure any given account is being used by the person who made it. Never mind trying to enforce actual rules about "you must be this tall to ride" on accounts. Frankly, as far as you know, this is not the same ShadowsOfParadox who originally argued with you, for that matter, every post "ShadowsOfParadox" has ever made on this site could, theoretically, have been made by an entirely different person each time. That's fairly unlikely, but technically possible.

To illustrate, let's take a hypothetical, let's say there's a discussion board for ONLY residents of X country. Let's assume this country has some sort of national ID that can actually be checked. The board requires you to provide a valid national ID in order to have an account, one account per ID number. How long do you think it'll take for this hypothetical board to wind up with non-residents/citizen's with accounts, or for that matter, residents/citizens with multiple accounts? Maybe a week would be my estimate, depends a bit on how well known the country and board are. As a somewhat relevant example, you might want to look into Dopa/Apdo, a Korean League of Legends player who's account, linked to his Korean Social Security Number, was and still is banned for a THOUSAND YEARS! He still plays on the Korean Server.

Let's take another hypothetical, there's a site with "adult" content on it, it requires you to have a valid Driver's License or similar. How long before someone under-age is on the site? Again, probably less than a week.

Of course, there's also another problem with this idea of "requiring valid government issued ID" as an identity check, it's the internet. By virtue of being online there is the possibility of data breaches. A data breach on most sites is honestly pretty minor, you change your password if affected and go on your day. Now the data breach involves information useful for identity theft. Entirely different story, entirely different minimum security requirements.

There are GOOD reasons that legislation involving age limits on the internet only requires companies to make good faith efforts. Because lying on the internet is EASY.

 

[The Name of Love]

Because it mostly works and you have yet to present a viable alternative.

In the OP, I presented viable alternatives. You guys dismissed them out of hand as "impractical" or "authoritarian," if you haven't ignored them.

That's more than a bit of a stretch. Every website with user generated content and sufficient volume of usage has illegal activity going on that slips through the filters because the traffic volume is too high to individually comb through. There's nothing unique about pornhub's operations that allowed this to happen that a differently organized site would have blocked. Platforms like pornhub are not legally liable for what their users post for exactly that reason.

This is like saying a six sigma complaint firm is negligent because their process still allows a one in a million error rate. It's considered unreasonable to demand perfection even in tightly controlled industrial manufacturing where the firm has total control over virtually every part of the process, let alone a process that's just trying to comb through a massive volume of data looking for anything that might possibly be illegal.

Also, and as unpleasant as this is to say, she was in for a bad time no matter what policy pornhub had in place. There's basically only one reason children get trafficked, sex. No matter where she ended up, this was going to happen her.

It's one thing to demand perfection. But I'm not doing that, am I? I acknowledge that social media companies like Twitter and Facebook have this problem too. But as I pointed out, its laissez-faire system practically invites abuse.

The internet's structure makes it effectively impossible to genuinely be sure any given account is being used by the person who made it. Never mind trying to enforce actual rules about "you must be this tall to ride" on accounts. Frankly, as far as you know, this is not the same ShadowsOfParadox who originally argued with you, for that matter, every post "ShadowsOfParadox" has ever made on this site could, theoretically, have been made by an entirely different person each time. That's fairly unlikely, but technically possible.

To illustrate, let's take a hypothetical, let's say there's a discussion board for ONLY residents of X country. Let's assume this country has some sort of national ID that can actually be checked. The board requires you to provide a valid national ID in order to have an account, one account per ID number. How long do you think it'll take for this hypothetical board to wind up with non-residents/citizen's with accounts, or for that matter, residents/citizens with multiple accounts? Maybe a week would be my estimate, depends a bit on how well known the country and board are. As a somewhat relevant example, you might want to look into Dopa/Apdo, a Korean League of Legends player who's account, linked to his Korean Social Security Number, was and still is banned for a THOUSAND YEARS! He still plays on the Korean Server.

Let's take another hypothetical, there's a site with "adult" content on it, it requires you to have a valid Driver's License or similar. How long before someone under-age is on the site? Again, probably less than a week.

Of course, there's also another problem with this idea of "requiring valid government issued ID" as an identity check, it's the internet. By virtue of being online there is the possibility of data breaches. A data breach on most sites is honestly pretty minor, you change your password if affected and go on your day. Now the data breach involves information useful for identity theft. Entirely different story, entirely different minimum security requirements.

There are GOOD reasons that legislation involving age limits on the internet only requires companies to make good faith efforts. Because lying on the internet is EASY.

Alright, then how about legal limits on teens owning or using phones with Internet access? Or some other common-sense policy to keep children off the Internet? Will you be willing to look into such restrictions?

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

It's not safe to assume what you assumed, first of all. Nor am I saying Pornhub caused the kidnapping. What I'm saying is that, through their negligence and laissez-faire attitude, they allowed a kidnapped fifteen year old to be raped on their website.

Except its that same negligence and laissez-faire attitude that allowed the kidnappers to ultimately be found and if Pornhub's laws did not exist as they are, there is a good chance that they would of never of been found. I understand your point, but ask yourself, do you really want a smarter mouse if you make the trap better in this case? What does changing Pornhub or getting rid of it effects the reality of kidnapping and rape?

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

Alright, then how about legal limits on teens owning or using phones with Internet access? Or some other common-sense policy to keep children off the Internet? Will you be willing to look into such restrictions?

...why is "common-sense" always "tyrannical"?

And of course, you now run into the problem of, how many kids/teens are buying their own phone in their own name RIGHT NOW. I expect basically none of them. Their parents buy them, the phones are in the parent's names. Your ideas would require absurd amounts of panopticon to enforce.

 

[The Name of Love]

Except its that same negligence and laissez-faire attitude that allowed the kidnappers to ultimately be found and if Pornhub's laws did not exist as they are, there is a good chance that they would of never of been found. I understand your point, but ask yourself, do you really want a smarter mouse if you make the trap better in this case? What does changing Pornhub or getting rid of it effects the reality of kidnapping and rape?

Where does it say that Pornhub allowed the kidnapper to be found and located?

...why is "common-sense" always "tyrannical"?

And of course, you now run into the problem of, how many kids/teens are buying their own phone in their own name RIGHT NOW. I expect basically none of them. Their parents buy them, the phones are in the parent's names. Your ideas would require absurd amounts of panopticon to enforce.

Do you think forbidding kids from having cigarettes or hard drugs is tyrannical?

 

[Cyan Saiyajin]

Where does it say that Pornhub allowed the kidnapper to be found and located?

Both the teen and kidnapper was identified from the movies he posted.

Suspect arrested after missing teen girl was spotted on Pornhub

A teenage girl who had been missing for nearly a year was found by authorities in Florida after sexually explicit photos of her were found online, a report said Thursday. Police found close to 60 p…

nypost.com