The War in Afghanistan

[LindyAF]

Only reason to go back is to buy more time for Americans. Then pull out

There aren't any Americans besides the servicemembers and government personnel there. It's just afghanis with paper citizenship.

There are no excuses to go back or for not leaving as quickly as possible, period.

 

[Bacle]

Yes, but our point is, given what we've seen, why on earth would we want to? From an objective standpoint, the whole modern military status quo has been making average American plebeians less safe. All it's accomplished is:

• Taking vast sums of their taxes on behalf of military-industry megacorps for equipment which either outright doesn't work or is abandoned to the very enemy it was built to fight against, therefore ensuring repeat business.
• Causing the refugee crisis spreading the very people being fought from their own countries to ours after increasingly radicalizing them with the destruction of their home and collateral damage to their friends and families.
• Justifying the creation of the orwellian security state/glowies.
• 'Allying' with the Saudi Arabians, aka, the ones who actually did 9/11 to spread their sunni theology of wahhabism which motivated doing 9/11 against nations full of shiite.
• Preventing the Taliban from eradicating the Afghanistan opium poppies which are converted into the opiates and heroine poisoning American plebeians.
• Risking nuclear war with China over Taiwan, after offshoring all our vital microchip-manufacturing industries there.

If the goal had been to defend America, you'd have been building nuclear reactors, powersat receiving stations and microchip manufacturing industries in the deindustrialized American heartland to end our dependence upon middle eastern oil and Taiwanese microchips, not invading shitholes on the opposite hemisphere.

I would also add:

• US military pay is not great compared to the private sector, even with the pay increase under Trump.
• The US military still has never gotten rid of the multiple layers of stigma it got after Vietnam, and they bank on the younger gens (post 9/11) not knowing much about it, or how the US military acted there, or how it echo'd into the civie world.
• The VA was utter shit for decades, and even Trump's attempt to clean house has not completely unfucked it.
• Most branches are becoming what amounts to social clubs for Harvard, Berkeley, and Yale grads, when you hit the positions that make the big decisions; it's why the US military went Woke so fast.
• Many military procurement programs focus more on feeding funds to certain congressional districts and companies, than on if the gear or what-have-you will actually do the job intended, and is worth the taxpayers money going into it.
• Who gets punished for what is now becoming even more political, and the military has become a 'one mistake and you're done' culture when you get above NJPs, because no one wants to risk their career to help someone else who has made a mistake, which is part of why the military is having retention problems.

The US military of today is not the same organism that freed Europe twice. We let WW1/2 go to our heads militarily, wanting to relive that glory, and we've been paying for that with 'forever wars' (Korean pennisula), or humiliating defeats by people we could have beaten militarily, but who understood the power of PR and social warfare and modern American squeamishness over casualties (Afghanistan, Somalia, Vietnam).

But the US military cannot admit such to itself, and thus cannot reflect on what they should be doing to change this. They have their own mythos they have to believe in and hold to, have to believe that many, many soldiers lives were not wasted in bungled foreign adventures (even if history shows otherwise), and many of them are so hooked to the 'status quo' in the military they will resist anything that might suggest the US military needs to do some serious soul searching about it's own nature and history in the modern world.

They hold to the mythos of George Washington Crossing the Delware, of the Battle of the Bulge, and of Leyte Gulf and martial prowess/courage winning the day/war; they try to ignore the Tet Offensive, Mogadishu, Bay of Pigs, the retreat from the Yalu, and the many, many times our military has been used on US soil against US civies or citizens because of political demands (1920's aerial bombing of 'black Wall Street' Tulsa protestors, Wounded Knee, the Sand Creek Massacre, Kent State, etc).

 

[Bassoe]

Only reason to go back is to buy more time for Americans. Then pull out

If we do that, we'll then be going back to reinforce the soldiers we sent in on a rescue mission, then to save the reinforcements, etc etcetera, until suddenly another couple decades and few trillion more dollars have gone by.

 

[King Arts]

I would also add:

• US military pay is not great compared to the private sector, even with the pay increase under Trump.
• The US military still has never gotten rid of the multiple layers of stigma it got after Vietnam, and they bank on the younger gens (post 9/11) not knowing much about it, or how the US military acted there, or how it echo'd into the civie world.
• The VA was utter shit for decades, and even Trump's attempt to clean house has not completely unfucked it.
• Most branches are becoming what amounts to social clubs for Harvard, Berkeley, and Yale grads, when you hit the positions that make the big decisions; it's why the US military went Woke so fast.
• Many military procurement programs focus more on feeding funds to certain congressional districts and companies, than on if the gear or what-have-you will actually do the job intended, and is worth the taxpayers money going into it.
• Who gets punished for what is now becoming even more political, and the military has become a 'one mistake and you're done' culture when you get above NJPs, because no one wants to risk their career to help someone else who has made a mistake, which is part of why the military is having retention problems.

The US military of today is not the same organism that freed Europe twice. We let WW1/2 go to our heads militarily, wanting to relive that glory, and we've been paying for that with 'forever wars' (Korean pennisula), or humiliating defeats by people we could have beaten militarily, but who understood the power of PR and social warfare and modern American squeamishness over casualties (Afghanistan, Somalia, Vietnam).

But the US military cannot admit such to itself, and thus cannot reflect on what they should be doing to change this. They have their own mythos they have to believe in and hold to, have to believe that many, many soldiers lives were not wasted in bungled foreign adventures (even if history shows otherwise), and many of them are so hooked to the 'status quo' in the military they will resist anything that might suggest the US military needs to do some serious soul searching about it's own nature and history in the modern world.

They hold to the mythos of George Washington Crossing the Delware, of the Battle of the Bulge, and of Leyte Gulf and martial prowess/courage winning the day/war; they try to ignore the Tet Offensive, Mogadishu, Bay of Pigs, the retreat from the Yalu, and the many, many times our military has been used on US soil against US civies or citizens because of political demands (1920's aerial bombing of 'black Wall Street' Tulsa protestors, Wounded Knee, the Sand Creek Massacre, Kent State, etc).

Wounded knee and sand creek were not against US citizens though? The native Americans were not considered part of the nations people till relatively recently.

 

[Bacle]

Wounded knee and sand creek were not against US citizens though? The native Americans were not considered part of the nations people till relatively recently.

You go to a reservation and try to recruit them for the modern military, you can absolutely bet those incidents will be on the minds of the people there.

 

[King Arts]

You go to a reservation and try to recruit them for the modern military, you can absolutely bet those incidents will be on the minds of the people there.

I mean yeah just like slavery and Jim Crow and racism will be on blacks minds. You either recruit from loyal populations that don’t have historically grievances, or you just flat out bribe them with money it worked for the Severan dynasty.

 

[Bacle]

I mean yeah just like slavery and Jim Crow and racism will be on blacks minds. You either recruit from loyal populations that don’t have historically grievances, or you just flat out bribe them with money it worked for the Severan dynasty.

Or you can acknowledge their beefs have merit, admit the US military is not quite the heroic organization is tries to project itself as, and ask for them to join to make it better.

But that requires humility towards civies and acknowledging histories the military tries hard to forget, something the US military has a difficult time with, particularly the 'humility towards civies/possible recruits' part.

 

[Zachowon]

You think the US Military doesnt know it had fucked up in the past?
Boy do I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

 

[Bassoe]

You either recruit from loyal populations that don’t have historically grievances, or you just flat out bribe them with money

Mustn't forget Option Three in a couple decades at current rates.

 

[Circle of Willis]

One of several interesting analyses I've seen of the longer-term effects of this disastrously-handled withdrawal following Coalition troops home. The Soviet system did not long endure defeat in Afghanistan, and its pullout was much better managed than the one in Kabul right now, to the point that the Communist Afghan regime actually outlived the one in the Kremlin by a full year - whereas, of course, the GIRoA didn't even make it to Biden's withdrawal date. Could defeat in Afghanistan ultimately prove fatal (even if not immediately) to whatever popular legitimacy is still being enjoyed by managerial technocratic neoliberalism, especially with other crises (like mass boomer retirement and the credit crunch) looming on the horizon?

 

[Bacle]

You think the US Military doesnt know it had fucked up in the past?
Boy do I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

There is a difference between knowing what tactical mistakes may have happened in a battle, and thus how to correct them in the future, and publicly acknowledging and addressing how the history of military fuck ups and abuses (ex, Tuskeegee Experiments, Agent Orange) has impacted the willingness of people to serve or trust their superiors/leaders.

 

[King Arts]

Mustn't forget Option Three in a couple decades at current rates.

Video does not work.

 

[Sobek]

This issue has already been brought up by the experts at the University of Trollsville and is being studied. The parallels are a bit bigger than just the pull out though, there is also the economy on the shitter and widespread distrust on the system.

 

[Zachowon]

There is a difference between knowing what tactical mistakes may have happened in a battle, and thus how to correct them in the future, and publicly acknowledging and addressing how the history of military fuck ups and abuses (ex, Tuskeegee Experiments, Agent Orange) has impacted the willingness of people to serve or trust their superiors/leaders.

Why should they bring up things of old? What is with you and this whole "Denounce the history" aspect of things?
Everyone knows of those at some point in time, be it through media they watch, or because they are bored, etc, etc.
Why should the mikitary of now, which not a single person currently in it, was in during either of those times, some being children or teens when they happend?
We domt do that shit anymore.....

Also, you bring up some highly horrible things, that no one will argue with you about. Being ip more questionable and you may have a point.

 

[Bassoe]

I'm not a military man, but it seems to me that a commander losing a war through sheer incompetence should be worse than a footsoldier pointing out that their commander is incompetent. Though I also don't understand the purpose of sacrificing a career to say so, given that it won't change anything and everyone already noticed the incompetence.

 

[Bacle]

Why should they bring up things of old? What is with you and this whole "Denounce the history" aspect of things?
Everyone knows of those at some point in time, be it through media they watch, or because they are bored, etc, etc.
Why should the mikitary of now, which not a single person currently in it, was in during either of those times, some being children or teens when they happend?
We domt do that shit anymore.....

Because whether you like it or not, that shit does matter to people in the current culture, and people have access to far more information than they used to about history.

Also, you bring up some highly horrible things, that no one will argue with you about. Being ip more questionable and you may have a point.

Ok, that's easy:

Confederate Base Naming

Go on, you want to pretend the modern US military is no longer the same one that carried out horrible shit domestically and hides under the WW1/2 mythos to deflect from that, justify those base names to a growing part of the electorate/recruitment pool that want them changed.

 

[Zachowon]

Because whether you like it or not, that shit does matter to people in the current culture, and people have access to far more information than they used to about history.
Ok, that's easy:

Confederate Base Naming

Go on, you want to pretend the modern US military is no longer the same one that carried out horrible shit, justify those base names to a growing part of the electorate/recruitment pool that want them changed.

Do you know how many people currently serving give a single fick about that?
A minority. About any of these things.
As for the bases, again, majority to not give a fuck about the history. To us the base makes the name now.

 

[Bacle]

Do you know how many people currently serving give a single fick about that?
A minority. About any of these things.
As for the bases, again, majority to not give a fuck about the history. To us the base makes the name now.

To the civies you want to recruit, and who ultimately control most of the nations politics/who is your boss in DC is (assuming we can ever trust the ballot box again), the base names do matter, whether you like it or not.

Civies control and fund the military, are where you get new recruits, and what they think about military matters will always impact national politics and high level military policies; stop pretending the military and it's culture are self-contained entities who can just shrug off larger cultural shifts, particularly regarding very controversial/questionable issues.

You wanted me to find a 'questionable issue' to make my point, and I have, and your reaction to it is exactly why parts of the US electorate see parts of the Right as nearly as bad as the Taliban.

'Southern Pride', as it relates to the Confederacy and those base names, is a massive black mark on the US and US military that you just want to ignore because of your heritage.

 

[LindyAF]

> Complains about the US Military being woke
> Wants to rename bases named after confederate generals, wants US military to apologize more for muh oppression

same guy, apparently lol. What do you think "woke" means?

 

[LindyAF]

Should have renamed Bagram airfield to MLK or Harvey Milk airfield or something, lol. I heard Bagram had some fucked up shit happen in it, wouldn't want to be drawing parallels to the historical oppression of underrepresented minorities, or something.

Would have to stay in afghanistan so they don't change the name back but it's a small price to pay.