Not too kind when it came to Natives. Read up on Sand Creek and Wounded Knee sometime.
United States The United States and Immigration Policy
- Thread starter Big Steve
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ShieldWife
Marchioness
They were unusually kind within the context of the thousands of years of human history across the globe where the more powerful side ruthlessly crushed their foes and didn’t give a damn about civilians, rights, freedoms, slavery, or anything like that.Not too kind when it came to Natives. Read up on Sand Creek and Wounded Knee sometime.
Which just makes the atrocities they committed at massacres like that (which they still called "battles" up until fairly recently) that much worse. The only reason I am here as I am is because that family member was hidden under the body of her older sister at Wounded Knee, where they chased down and killed even children, who had managed to run miles away from the main site of the massacre through the snow. Even the senior officer who was supposed to be in command of these men was appalled by what he had seen and tried to court martial the officers who had been there and commanded it to be done, but the Army wouldn't have it, and Congress even awarded Medals of Honor which stand to this day.
So what?
I see you who says how bad identity politics are clearly valuing your identity in relation to politics.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
How is Wounded Knee that much worse?
In world history, especially outside of the West, Wounded Knee wouldn’t even be blinked at. The US soldiers were disarming the Indians, there was some confusion and fighting broke out, leading to lots of the Indians getting killed and a fair number of soldiers too. Compared to, for example, how Indians treated each other during war, that was extremely kind.
I’m not saying it’s good or anything, but the West, including but not at all limited to the USA, has been incredibly kind and merciful to people they have conquered compared to any other civilization that has ever existed. Yet it’s only the West that gets shamed for atrocities. The hypocrisy is sickening.
For me I’m just laughing at the guy who goes around saying “identity politics! Regressive left and regressive right both same!” Now saying that natives have ethnic lineage that gives them the claim and the right to a tie to land that supersedes whites because of time length and being first, ie blood and soil politics lol.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
and what are you guys going to do about it? are you going to cry and whine about it on a message board or are you actually going to start a political movement or at the very least get involved for crying out loud. An hour of working the hands are worth 4 hours of working the mouth.
So they claimed anyway. Doesn't really excuse the supposedly civilized people running down women and children who had managed to run up to 5 miles away from the "battle." Sand Creek was even worse, btw.
Not really. At best you might claim an equivalence, but then you lose any kind of moral high ground you might have thought you had there. The Lakota certainly weren't the nicest people, but we generally didn't go out of our way to wipe other people out (as in, as a people or culture), and while we did take scalps, we didn't cut off genitals and use them for saddle horns or coin bags and the like as was done at Sand Creek. That was led by a minister, incidentally.
This is only amongst the intellectually dishonest. Like the feminists and LGBT types who ignore the atrocities Islam has perpetuated on their kind and defend them like some kind of underdog.
The irony is that I only bring it up at all when someone like yourself makes that kind of argument in regard to immigration. For me it's simply a matter of perspective, because here you are whining about the same kind of thing, basically, and yet here you are using the "whatabout" argument.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
This is a ridiculous argument. Why would you assume that because someone is saying something on a forum that this is the only activism they are engaged in?
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
because frankly I've yet to see any meaningful results or sign of organization to think otherwise. had we spent have as much time securing local elections as we did listining to Qanaon we might not have gotten a meat puppet for a false president.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
There was a pretty big moral high ground for the Europeans. Native American tribes frequently committed genocide, routinely inflicted horrific tortures on captured prisoners including civilians, took women and children as sex slaves. If the NA killed at Wounded Knee had, instead, been approached by a superior force of enemy natives, there would have been no need for an accidental shot to go off to start the fighting, a massacre and far worse would have been the forgone conclusion.So they claimed anyway. Doesn't really excuse the supposedly civilized people running down women and children who had managed to run up to 5 miles away from the "battle." Sand Creek was even worse, btw.
Not really. At best you might claim an equivalence, but then you lose any kind of moral high ground you might have thought you had there. The Lakota certainly weren't the nicest people, but we generally didn't go out of our way to wipe other people out (as in, as a people or culture), and while we did take scalps, we didn't cut off genitals and use them for saddle horns or coin bags and the like as was done at Sand Creek. That was led by a minister, incidentally.
I‘m not justifying anything that Europeans did to NA, but what I am saying is how terrible it is that basically the West is the only civilization in the world that actually started saying that this sort of thing was wrong and who starting showing compassion to their defeated enemies and yet it’s only the West who gets blamed for it.
As opposed to the meaningful results from “conservatives” who spend most of their time sucking up to the left, calling other conservatives racists, and trying to protect the left’s gradual takeover of society? They have gotten lots of meaningful results, all bad. By 2020 whatever election fraud there was was inevitable, the right has lost the political battle, that happened decades ago.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
So... Kind of like your doing now? I see walls and walls of text but the streets are awfully quite for someone an entire subset of the population who claims this is all a lost cause. For all of the lefs keyboard warrior crap at least they have antifa. Meanwhile for all your guy's talk You traditionalist can't even seem to be bothered to vote, run for office or even open up a business.
Sure, it’s just for perspective. There’s no way it impacts your politics at all. And still you and everyone else who is in this thread has yet to even actually address the actual arguments made lol.
I have to say, the way people are acting like the most of the West was the most merciful conquerors is kinda...hilarious.So they claimed anyway. Doesn't really excuse the supposedly civilized people running down women and children who had managed to run up to 5 miles away from the "battle." Sand Creek was even worse, btw.
Not really. At best you might claim an equivalence, but then you lose any kind of moral high ground you might have thought you had there. The Lakota certainly weren't the nicest people, but we generally didn't go out of our way to wipe other people out (as in, as a people or culture), and while we did take scalps, we didn't cut off genitals and use them for saddle horns or coin bags and the like as was done at Sand Creek. That was led by a minister, incidentally.
This is only amongst the intellectually dishonest. Like the feminists and LGBT types who ignore the atrocities Islam has perpetuated on their kind and defend them like some kind of underdog.
The irony is that I only bring it up at all when someone like yourself makes that kind of argument in regard to immigration. For me it's simply a matter of perspective, because here you are whining about the same kind of thing, basically, and yet here you are using the "whatabout" argument.
Like, frankly the most 'merciful' Europeans in the Americas were the Russians in what is now Alaska. They didn't have the manpower to take it over by force, and the Inuit/Aleut were more valued as guides and trading partners. Heck, there's a reason a lot of AK natives belong to Russian Orthodox churches, and it's not because their ancestors were forced into church or reservations at gun point like in many other places.
NA were human as the rest of us, but no one should act like the Europeans or US had the moral high ground. It was about land, gold, and furs; if the Natives had something we wanted, we took it by treaty, broken treaty, and guns.
The only natives the West can actually claim any moral superiority over were the Aztecs, because they were blood thirsty conquerors themselves and Europeans didn't practice human sacrifice.
This isn't 'white guilt' talking either, it's just plain acknowledgement of how brutal things were for the NA and why the Western powers don't get to act like they were 'merciful' in thier handling of them.
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ShieldWife
Marchioness
You have no idea about any political activism I (or anybody else here you're criticizing) have engaged in outside of this forum. The left can have Antifa because the police look the other way while they terrorize their opponents where as right wingers who even try to defend themselves from Antifa go to prison for years.
It seems like you just want to express disagreement but instead of trying to construct an argument, you're just saying that we aren't doing enough when you have no clue what anybody else is doing.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
It sounds to me like your justification for "uniquely kind" is that they are unique in voluntarily giving up on (most of) the cruelties they had been committing. Is that right? That is very different from my earlier impression that you were saying they were kinder all along.
And I'm not aware that American Indians often hunted down women and children for the purpose of slaughter. I'd welcome statistics on this.
Firstly, why would they be doing that if it was really a "lost cause"?
Secondly, just because not enough people tried doesn't mean nobody tried. For all we know some of these posters are doing all they can to prepare street demonstrations (but not ShieldWife who considers it a lost cause and would instead be organizing her bunker town).
ShieldWife
Marchioness
Go back in time far enough and you'll find Europeans committing the same kinds of terrible atrocities that every other civilization or group of people have since time immemorial. They are uniquely kind in giving those actions up, which other groups didn't unless forced to do so by the West.
Do you have statistics on how often US soldiers massacred native Americans? Of course not, its a ridiculous request. Of course, you can list some examples of American soldiers committing such atrocities, we can also discuss examples of Indians doing so as well.
I do oppose the West's colonialism, conquest, imperialism, enslavement, and other nasty actions along those lines. I really do, it's bad, but my problem is this: almost everybody who likes to talk about stuff is essentially a racist hypocrite. Because they are utterly obsessed with the negative actions of the West and whites while completely ignoring the fact that doing that stuff was universal UNTIL the West decided it was wrong. Only the West gets blamed, while the West should feel less guilt than countless other civilizations.
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