United States The United States and Immigration Policy

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
Alright, here we have what might be the new third rail of politics, at least on web forums.

Roughly speaking (and I fully expect to have people disagree with me on both ends), you've got a spectrum anchored by two sides. On one side are the Open Border advocates, which more and more Democrats (especially Progressive-types) are going toward, who want to basically say "Anyone can move into the US!" They want to dissolve ICE completely (and let's be honest, half of them want to send the agency's members to the Hague) and allow anyone who wants to enter the country to come in, and regard the very idea of an "illegal" immigrant as a violation of basic human rights and decency.

On the other end of the spectrum you've got something of a mini-spectrum, ranging from "keep them all out" types to "rigorously enforce the border but maintain an immigration system for the most fitting". Controlling one's borders, and having the broad right to refuse entry to foreign citizens if desired, is something seen as integral to the modern Nation-State's sovereignty. If people enter anyway, they should be arrested and sent back. Anyone who wants to enter must do so legally even if it takes them twenty years to gain that legal entry.

And of course there's the routine failure to do much to punish American businesses that make use of UDA labor. They usually get a fine, if anything at all, and the recent chicken planet issue in Mississippi (wasn't it Tyson?) even had the added reports that ICE was called in after the company lost a worker-filed lawsuit about various misdeeds like sexual harassment. In short, the company turned on its workers to avoid having to pay a dime in damages.

And together with all that, now we've got a nice new explosive additive to the mixture with the migrant detention camps and Trump's crackdown. The issue has brought us the reports of actual US citizens of Latino background being arbitrarily picked up by ICE and their documents called into question, the camps becoming cesspools of disease with inadequate facilities and supplies, children being lost or dying, and whether or not Trump and subordinates are deliberately making the camps horrible pour encourager les autres (or, perhaps more accurately, pour décourager les autres). The comparisons to concentration camps have been pushed particularly hard by the Democrats and other forces on the left and we've even had violence from leftists against ICE now by those with such beliefs. (And I'll even credit them the willingness to go to the mat for their beliefs.) That some of the migrants were filing for asylum legitimately and are still being thrown into the camps to be treated like prisoners gives the entire policy a negative light.

There is also the matter of the argument of any problems being related to a lack of funding from Congress (and Trump, given his positions, being unwilling to "find the money" as he has done with his border wall).

Now, personally, I believe in America's right to control its borders. But, I'm not sold on the camp policy as it's being executed. Trump's losing hearts and minds with these reports. Americans may be worried about jobs and other matters about immigrants, but with all of our other old sins like reservations and Japanese internment camps as part of our national memory, poking at that tender memory of hypocrisy against our creed is going to hurt. And the camps have the potential to do just that. And on top of all that, last but certainly not least... these migrants are Human beings. They have the same natural rights as we do, the rights we claim to cherish, and legalism aside, we have a moral and ethical obligation to at least see to their health while we decide their fate and then give them a fair hearing (And I don't mean marching a four year old into court). Whatever our legal requirements or obligations concerning immigrants and our own citizens, this must be addressed, or it's going to be another stain on our national history.

Also some immigration reform wouldn't hurt, but we'd have to decide if we're going for "keep people out" or "be lenient about letting them in", which is a debate I don't see being settled for a time.

Alright everyone. I can't wait to see you tell me what I missed or got wrong. I so love being told I'm wrong. :p
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Americans may be worried about jobs and other matters about immigrants, but with all of our other old sins like reservations and Japanese internment camps as part of our national memory, poking at that tender memory of hypocrisy against our creed is going to hurt.
This in particular, the glaring difference between the two is that one is effectively voluntary, the other is not. People are choosing to cross into the country knowing full well what the potential consequences are. The Japanese and Native Americans did not. As of right now I just don't have a lot of sympathy for it. I'm busy paying and working hard at two jobs just to be able to afford schooling for my wife as we wait on her green card application and my BOLC date for the Army. Said schooling costs an exorbitant amount and she herself is not legally allowed to work because of the visa she is on. Meanwhile education centers in my state, were she to be undocumented, would have her paying considerably less money as it would be considered in-state tuition and she'd be able to work under the table somewhere. In what fucking world is it fair that her doing things the legal way, the way you are supposed to do it, puts more of a burden on our family than if she just decided fuck the laws, and would see little consequence from those actions due to the laws and policies of this state. At the same time, those heavily leftwing strongholds use her and students like her as a fucking piggy bank because of how expensive being an international student is. I just cant muster up the sympathy for people who chose to violate this nations laws when if they were to make it to the state I am in, would be getting something of a better shake than someone doing shit legally would get. To get a perspective of how this affected her, when we first started dating, she said "I dont think I could ever vote Republican." Now she sports a MAGA hat.
 
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prinCZess

Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
I think the two largest concerns in the immigration discussion are the excessively byzantine and rules-lawyered status of the legal immigration system and the system designed to hold and process illegal migrants (of which the poorly-organized and provisioned holding camps are an outgrowth), and the capability US businesses, especially those in the agricultural sector, have to exploit the shit out of illegal immigrants while paying them a pittance and actively putting them into dangerous working conditions.

In the first case, it seems like a budgetary 'bullet' needs to be bitten and the bureaucracy for processing citizenship application, reviewing asylum claims, and investigating relationship status and everything related just needs to be larger--managing this is a fundamental duty for the feds, and immigration judges having caseloads so booked that people need to be held for months or more (or released on their own cognizance...Which is self-evidently an incomplete solution) shouldn't be tolerated. At the same time, there is a major concern of human trafficking (along with other kinds) that the immigration issue touches on, so more Border Patrol resources might be necessary as well.
And we should probably expand the quotas we have for those with employment. The absolute numbers game we play clogs things, slows it down, and if integration is a concern* than something at least based upon percentage of total population makes more sense. I understand the logic of family-based immigration, and even support it, but having it be the primary ticket into the US? And be three times or more the size of employment-based immigration? That seems like a perverse incentive--and preferential treatment for those who can get a family-member through the byzantine, slow process first.

*Not convinced this is much of a concern, since anecdotally every single naturalized US citizen I've met has been considerably more knowledgeable about the country, its origins, and the basics of government, the Constitution, and liberal ideals it was based upon than virtually every native-born High School graduate I know.

In the case of the Agriculture sector, and general employment of illegal labor...We need to crack down on the businesses doing it. The shit's dangerous, and I don't know if I can properly express how monstrous the usual argument against such of 'fruits and vegetables will get more expensive!' is--Like...Talk about backwards priorities? We damn well should be valuing illegal migrants safety and health over the ability of ag companies and others to offer lower prices. Then beyond that the job market very much should be equal opportunity--and casually dismissing whole sectors as jobs for 'those people' because companies don't offer Americans who aren't under perpetual threat of deportation enough money to get enough workers...It makes no sense from both a humanitarian and an economic perspective.
Like...At best that whole line of argument should be on the need to expand green card allowances and maybe some specific agricultural subsidies* to help companies. 'Keep using illegal foreign labor because they can be paid criminally low wages and don't have to be provided with any workplace protections!' is a mantra for monsters.

*I kind of hate myself for even saying this because of how fugbuck nuts those subsidies get to be already, but the shit would at LEAST be an improvement to the argument on 'low-priced fruits and vegetables' that moved away from applauding exploitation and a modern analogue to fricken' slavery!

Long rant short--Expand legal immigration, uncluster the current cluster the US immigration system seems to be at multiple levels because of successive administrations engaging in ad hoc tinkers and 'fixes' to the snowball of garbage, and quit using or applauding the use of near-slave laborers.
 

Realm

Well-known member
Friendly Reminder from The Boot. Please avoid flame bait, even if tangentially related to the thread. This is not quite a 2 (c) violation, but is getting close.
On one side are the Open Border advocates, which more and more Democrats (especially Progressive-types) are going toward, who want to basically say "Anyone can move into the US!" They want to dissolve ICE completely (and let's be honest, half of them want to send the agency's members to the Hague) and allow anyone who wants to enter the country to come in, and regard the very idea of an "illegal" immigrant as a violation of basic human rights and decency.

Hey that me

we've even had violence from leftists against ICE now by those with such beliefs. (And I'll even credit them the willingness to go to the mat for their beliefs.)

66712195_2301747756742169_1951939181492043776_n.png
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder

You can't pretend this is a simple policy debate when the Trump administration is doing shit like this.
It is absolutely a policy debate. I can just as easily put the guy below as an example and say its not a policy debate because of terrorism. I'd also want to know the actual context of the link and see the letter sent initially personally.

Hey that me



66712195_2301747756742169_1951939181492043776_n.png
Good riddance.
 

Realm

Well-known member
Friendly Reminder from the Boot, see above! The Boot is watching! (this is a topic about immigration, not gun control, post in the appropriate thread)
Good riddance.

Hey, it's not his fault right wing memes about guns being important to fight government tyranny led him astray.

Well, that might have been his problem, it's not tyranny when it's hispanic people who *looks at smudged notes on hand* were legal residents who forgot their papers when ICE came around. That's just their own fault, really.
 

FriedCFour

PunishedCFour
Founder
Hey, it's not his fault right wing memes about guns being important to fight government tyranny led him astray.
Pretty sure it was Marx and his gun quotes. And the John Brown Gun Club. And the stupid number of mainstream leftwing figures supporting them and rallying people on crys of concentration camps. The first concentration camps where people are flooding the border to get into them.

Well, that might have been his problem, it's not tyranny when it's hispanic people who *looks at smudged notes on hand* were legal residents who forgot their papers when ICE came around. That's just their own fault, really.
No thats a sad but thankfully rare occurrence, thats bound to happen when you have millions of people who have violated the law and need to be deported.
 
D

Deleted member 1

Guest
A nation has the right to define its frontiers, by war if necessary, and conduct itself as an organic whole of society in which social relations are controlled by the traditions of and between the peoples residing within it. We have a sovereign right to halt all immigration.

As for the wisdom of doing so, or rather severely restricting immigration to a Points Scheme, there are three points in favour from my point of view:

1. Neocapitalist internationalism is immersizing the working class and professional class by bringing in low paid manufacturing/agricultural workers, displacing the working class and especially negatively impacting the African-American population, and two, H1B visas are allowing lower paid foreigners to be used to cripple the bargaining power of educated Americans for professional careeers.

2. The neocapitalists use immigration to the west to “skim off the top”, taking the smartest and most successful people in developing nations and making them into serfs in the First World, guaranteeing that people in the developing world lack their smartest and hardest-working individuals, perpetuating corrupt elites and economic slavery to large multinational manufacturing firms who otherwise would face growing economies in those countries and growing wage demand.

3. We are diluting the political power of indigenous people, which is managed by treaty, without their consent; we are also diluting the political power of African Americans without decisively settling racial issues in the United States. Both are specific to the US, points one and two are more general.

Collectively these arguments are a perfect reason to sharply limit immigration if not temporarily ban it outright.

Further, of course, to inoculate respect for the constitution and laws of the Republic, all lawbreakers by virtue of their illicit entry under current law should be expelled from the country as illegal aliens.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny

You can't pretend this is a simple policy debate when the Trump administration is doing shit like this.

Some idiot put the wrong link in a memo, therefore it's all an evil bigoted plot? That's....quite a leap.
 

HistoryMinor

Well-known member
He openly said to put the wrong link in that memo on purpose, as part of his evil plot kill all the brown people or something?

He's openly said judges can't be trusted because of their ethnicity, has accused the judiciary of overstepping its role in regards to civil rights and has adopted repurposed fascist terminology.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
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Obozny
He's openly said judges can't be trusted because of their ethnicity,

It was more than just that, but yes that was out of line.

has accused the judiciary of overstepping its role in regards to civil rights

Every politician whines about activist courts overstepping thier bounds and ruling from the bench. I'm not exactly shocked Trump is one them.


and has adopted repurposed fascist terminology.

I'd like a clarification on what you mean by that.
 

HistoryMinor

Well-known member
It was more than just that, but yes that was out of line.



Every politician whines about activist courts overstepping thier bounds and ruling from the bench. I'm not exactly shocked Trump is one them.




I'd like a clarification on what you mean by that.

lugenpresse, kritarchs (aka legalist jews)
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
lugenpresse

Calling CNN names does not a facist make, an more than Obama was when he picked a fight with Fox News.

On a more general level, the right does have an adversarial attitude toward the media (or rather, toward the perceived left leaning parts of the media), but that hostile relationship has a lot more to do with the media demanding more respect and deference than thier actions have warranted, not because the right is full of facists.


kritarchs (aka legalist jews)

Again "some dude fucked up and put the wrong link in a memo" does not a vast facist conspiracy make. This is like a dumber version of the GOP going "Haha, the Obamacare website is a bit slow and buggy, I told you the entire system was unworkable!"
 

Navarro

Well-known member
According to the article, there may not even have been a dude to fuck up:

A former senior DOJ official said that the email in question was "generated by a third-party vendor that utilizes keyword searches to produce news clippings for staff. It is not reviewed or approved by staff before it is transmitted."
 

ShieldWife

Marchioness
I’m basically against immigration. While I would, in theory, want a system where worthy immigrants are allowed into the nation - what we have now is such an existential threat to the country and it’s citizens that I would favor a complete moratorium on all immigration until we can get things under better control. Along with this, I would favor deportation of all illegals in the nation currently, an end to birthright citizenship, and harsh penalties (big fines and real jail time) for employers who hire illegals.

So with regards to immigration, I make Trump look pretty moderate.
 

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