Israel The Long Term Fate of Israel

D

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I confess, this is an uncomfortable subject among conservatives. I love the Israeli state, I have Israeli friends, I think there is nothing finer or more lovely in recent history than the flowering of Jewish culture which came from the re-founding of the Israeli state. It restored to Judaism pride and confidence of a kind that had been savagely oppressed through two thousand years in the Western and Islamic worlds. There is nothing finer than to remark on the lives of the heroes of the Israeli state and the amazing exploits of bringing life to the desert, reviving a dead language, and the countless feats of arms of Israel.

But demographics are an inexorable leveler, and as Herbert said in Dune, "The tighter you clench the grains of sand in your fist, the faster they run through your fingers." The failure of Israel to immediately annex the West Bank and Gaza after the Six Days War was a terrible error from my perspective. Since then these territories have become concentrated masses of poverty, and poverty is a perfect recipe for a very high birth rate. Perhaps if the Israeli state had annexed them in 1967 and provided identical economic outcomes, the matter would be far more confident because the birth rate of the Palestinian Arabs would be much lower. But they didn't, and the demographic situation is now a grave one.

Worse, of course, the Israeli State has trapped itself into all the attendant horrors of an extended occupation, committing crimes against the farmers of the West Bank and Gaza as a matter of course. Nobody can really seriously argue that the property rights to their native land, which they have occupied for centuries, has not been routinely violated. That a large number of city dwellers more recently moved to the area of Palestinian and are no more native than the recent Jewish immigrants does not change this fact. The long-term detention and the restriction on freedom of movement of the Palestinians has guaranteed a constant feeling of hatred and enmity between the peoples. The Palestinians will destroy the Israeli Jewish population the moment they get the chance, we all know that. The Israelis have guaranteed, for understandable reasons, that is irrevocably the case. A One-State Solution would mean ethnic cleansing and the expulsion of the Jews from Palestine.

Where do we stand then? I fear that Israel has trapped itself, and that the BDS movement and other efforts will only grow louder and more successful. I fear that the Palestinian population will continue to grow, and continue to resist, exactly like the local Arabs did during the Crusaders. They will remember each slight, and each wrong, and wait, another century if necessary. As the pressure grows against Israel and the attacks continue, Israelis will move to other welcoming countries. The pressure will grow from the international community, and Israel will gradually become a pariah state. Finally, the international community will force a union between Israel and Palestine, declare it a great victory, and then watch in confusion and denial as over the course of ten or twenty years the Palestinians complete the total expulsion of the Jewish population and are finally victorious, over a wrecked and destitute mirage in the desert.

In short, it's going to play out exactly like the Crusader States did, on roughly the same time-scale.

I am a tremendous supporter of Israel, but also a tremendous pessimist about her future. I think Ariel Sharon's death was almost as a Greek Tragedy, a working to guarantee in Fate that Israel is ultimately destroyed, as he was struck down just before completing (by a withdrawal behind the Wall in the West Bank) the successful extraction of his homeland from the trap. Can anyone at this point successfully extract Israel from the trap? Or is she, in fact, doomed?
 
D

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The Crusader States lasted quite a while, historically.

Oh, I agree, you are quite right... Except they didn't last all that longer than 175 years in their main open-land power centres of the Kingdom of Jerusalem. So being proud of Israel, pro-Israel, and still being pessimistic about Israel being doomed within that historical time-scale is, I think, perfectly congruent with that, as much as I hate to say it.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Everything I know about the conflict tells me that Israel had very little choice in their current situation. The western powers refused and still refuse to allow them to do anything to prevent the other Middle Eastern powers from using the "Palestinians" (who are at best nothing more than the descendants of sore losers in a civil war, one which they started by trying to genocide their local Jewish population) as a weapon against the hated Jewish state.

In short, the current situation is almost solely the responsibility of the western powers who, whether it be because of naivety, arrogance, or stupidity, thought they could manipulate it to achieve a better outcome; not Israel. Honestly, that mindset is at the root of almost every problem in the Middle East today; because most can be traced back to a western power who though they knew better than everyone else how things should be, and half-heatedly meddled when and where they shouldn't have, and in so doing opening the door for things to get far, far worse.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I have theories, but frankly I rather hope I am wrong about what I expect to happen in the long term.

Having Egypt absorb Gaza, Jordan absorb parts of the West Bank, and Paletinians giving up both Jerusalem and the Temple are "best" realistic outcomes, but we live in unrealistic times.
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
I have theories, but frankly I rather hope I am wrong about what I expect to happen in the long term.

Having Egypt absorb Gaza, Jordan absorb parts of the West Bank, and Paletinians giving up both Jerusalem and the Temple are "best" realistic outcomes, but we live in unrealistic times.
Yeah, no way Jordan is going to want any part of that; remember, the "Paletinians" tried to take over their country the last time they let them in. None of the Middle Eastern nations want anything to do with them, outside of using them as a plausibly deniable weapon against Israel, and they will not accept any outcome that does not involve the "Paletinians" continuing to serve in that capacity.
 

Big Steve

For the Republic!
Founder
It's a shame that the passions would prevent something like a "two nations, one state" co-federal system? There'd be certain unified policies and Israel would have to give up some of its activities, but the Palestinians wouldn't be allowed to vote their way to domination or otherwise wipe the Israelis out.

I can't help but think of some reading I did by Lord Norwich about the Sicilian state of the late 11th and 12th Centuries, under the de Hautevilles. Particularly the second Roger, first King of Sicily and son of the late Great Count of Sicily and nephew of the Guiscard himself. He practiced general religious and cultural tolerance in Sicily in which communities - Muslim, Latin, Greek - were governed by their distinct religious and cultural principles, and in many ways the Sicilian Kingdom was one of the great realms of the world in its era. Palermo became a major crossroads of trade.

And even earlier, the Guiscard used Muslim troops in his armies later in his reign, drawn from his Sicilian conquests, who were granted protection from missionary activity and were allowed, even required, to continue to follow their religion.

IIRC this state of affairs mostly lasted, with some decline, until after the fall of Roger II's grandson Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II and the Hohenstaufen dynasty.
 
D

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@Big Steve , a similar inter-communal government existed in Lebanon, but it was essentially collapsed by the political antics of the masses of Palestinian refugees which settled into the country, leading to the depopulation of the Christians. I am proud to count Lebanese Christians among my relatives, but bitterly sad that they were deracinated from their homeland as a consequence of civil war.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
@Big Steve , a similar inter-communal government existed in Lebanon, but it was essentially collapsed by the political antics of the masses of Palestinian refugees which settled into the country, leading to the depopulation of the Christians. I am proud to count Lebanese Christians among my relatives, but bitterly sad that they were deracinated from their homeland as a consequence of civil war.

What happened to them would happen to a lot of other people too, if the crazy open-borders people had their way.

Personally, I see the Israelis as being on one of the front-lines of something that is a danger to all of civilization - and has been for thousands of years.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Any solution that strips or curtails Israeli sovereignty is a no go.

BDS is unlikely to gain traction, and so far has failed 95% of every initiative it tried, while in many places it got itself outlawed outright.

With the common enemy of Iran, Israel is gradually closing the diplomatic gap between itself and its Arab neighbourhood.

Demographics are also not an issue, Arab growth is levelling off while Jewish growth is very high compared to most Western countries, and stable.

The economy has been strong for a long time now, growth is pretty good, the qualitative edge over its enemies is good and even improving (although it's a constant race)

I think Israel will be fine.

There are 3 big issues it will have to contend with though, that are very much not trivial.

1) Iran and its proxies. It's a real existential threat. Iran is attempting to create what can be realistically called a beachhead in Syria. Combined with Hezbollah in Lebanon and its beneficiaries in Gaza (possibly Hamas itself) Iran can potentially start a 3-front war with Israel, which will be fought completely differently from previous big wars like the 6 day war and the like. Israel is likely to contend with overwhelming waves of accurate high-yield ballistic missiles aimed accurately and in volleys at important industrial and military centers all the way in its heart, Tel Aviv and other places. Iron Dome and David's Sling can be overwhelmed. At the same time, Iran will try not to present a clear target to retaliate against by using guerilla tactics, and each bombing by Israel would be heavily used for propaganda and form a 4th front in the war - the legal/diplomatic front.

It's not trivial or a given that Israel could win this, and if it can it may exit the war extremely battered with a shattered economy.

2) Internally the religious population is pressuring Israel immensely, in effect even trying to take over. Things like drawing billions for subsidies of religious studies and refusal to serve in the military, while at the same time being the fastest growing segment of the Jewish population by far... That is not sustainable.

This pressure impacts the country in many ways, religious content in education and less emphasis on the sciences will mean that the growing generation will not be as well-equipped to keep the economic and technological edge going, and in Israel's neighborhood that's suicide, its rivals would eat it alive and destroy it as a country. Brain drain will also happen (it's starting to happen already in fact)

3) The US is getting more radical, views that were considered unacceptable in the past an everyday occurrence now, on BOTH political sides.

If the next president after Trump (whether in 2020 or 2024) is a democrat, there's a good chance of him/her being of the insane variety, up to and including active and open hostility to Israel. Imagine someone like Tlaib or Omar as a secretary of state. Yeah, that is a potential existential threat to Israel right there. If Israel loses the US as an ally UN sanctions are not out of the question - regardless of Israel's actions, as the cry for those is driven by grudges and agendas rather than some kind of objective assessment of Israeli policies. If that happens Israel is done, it doesn't have the population, the territory and all the necessary industries to survive that like Iran, Russia or North Korea can. It's too small of a market.

All three of the above issues are highly dangerous but possible to surpass, and I am optimistic that Israel will manage to make do.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Would anyone care to explain something to me: What does Iran have against Israel?
Is it just an ideological thing - a non-Islamic people not being allowed to have a country in "Muslim" lands?
Is this part of the long-term "civil war" in Islam between Shiite and Sunni?
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Would anyone care to explain something to me: What does Iran have against Israel?
Is it just an ideological thing - a non-Islamic people not being allowed to have a country in "Muslim" lands?
Is this part of the long-term "civil war" in Islam between Shiite and Sunni?

There is no practical reason for Iran to place itself as Israel's enemy (only an ideological one). The usual argument was that it was trying to gain favor with the Arab world, but now that the Arab world itself is getting steadily closer to Israel that argument no longer makes any sense.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
There is no practical reason for Iran to place itself as Israel's enemy (only an ideological one). The usual argument was that it was trying to gain favor with the Arab world, but now that the Arab world itself is getting steadily closer to Israel that argument no longer makes any sense.

So... I'm guessing that the Iranian leadership have painted themselves into a corner on this, with all their rhetoric about Israel being the "Satan" responsible for everything bad.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
That's one possible explanation, yes.

Another one is that they have an ambition to become a regional hegemon/empire, and they would have a hard time throwing their weight around with Israel nearby. They know that Israel is one of the few regional powers capable of effectively projecting its air power, and proven to not be afraid of using it.
 
D

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@GoldRanger , respectfully, I am just not so optimistic. The demographics are only improving in any sense (and they're still in the Pals' favour) because of the massive Orthodox Jewish birthrate... But their cultural-religious dictates prevent them from supporting the State economy or the Army. This is a serious, serious problem for the future viability of Israel's ability to defend itself while conducting the occupation.

The West Bank and Gaza need to be made independent (probably as separate countries instead of one Palestinian state, however), Israel should get the neutral zones, the Latrun salient, and probably Gush Etzion, and the bulk of (but perhaps not all) East Jerusalem, and of course should be compensated by the international community formally recognising the Golan Heights as permanent and irrevocable Israeli sovereign territory. If the Israelis don't act soon to force such a deal, I fear they will lose the chance, and set their own fate.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
Oh right, the Orthodox idiots whe genuily belive that it's their prayers and not the IDF that protect the Israel. Still doesn't stop them from demanding IDF protection in their West Bank settlements.
Two different groups. The first are the Haredi, the second are the religious settlers. The first doesn't really even acknowledge the Israeli state, the second is hyper-nationalists. Both are causing issues for Israel in their own ways.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
It is going to survive, being the center of several wars of genocide is going to equip a nation with a variety of skills and mindsets to ensure that.

The US isn't going to abandon Israel, because it needs Suez open... and that isn't going to happen if the US stops paying effectively large-scale bribes to Egypt and Israel (why do you think that Egypt quickly onboard with recognizing Israel's existence? Because the US was literally bribing Egypt with huge sums of money and material after they got their asses kicked the third/fourth time, forgot which). So it'll likely be the status quo between the US and Israel more or less for the future.

Iran can't do much without the possibility of it getting nuked, and Europe can't stand idly by if Israel is getting overrun because they know that in all likelihood that the Samson Option would be real and they'll get nuked as well. All Iran can do is basically deniable asset shit and nothing else.

... so it leaves with the hyper-religious groups and the idiots that make mules look tame in the stubborn department.
 

Scottty

Well-known member
Founder
Two different groups. The first are the Haredi, the second are the religious settlers. The first doesn't really even acknowledge the Israeli state, the second is hyper-nationalists. Both are causing issues for Israel in their own ways.

From what I hear about those Haredi, the Israelis really need to stop playing along with their nonsense. No civilization can afford to tolerate people who demand endless hand-outs in return for nothing, while at the same time breeding like rabbits.
 

GoldRanger

May the power protect you
Founder
From what I hear about those Haredi, the Israelis really need to stop playing along with their nonsense. No civilization can afford to tolerate people who demand endless hand-outs in return for nothing, while at the same time breeding like rabbits.

I agree. They are a serious internal threat to the stability of Israeli society. Unfortunately they possess inordinate political power, it's very hard to put together a coalition without the cooperation of their parties.
 

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