Stormcloaks vs Imperials

[Hlaalu Agent]

@S'task I am not sure "natural disaster" is the correct term for what happened in Morrowind- more like actual "act of god", since it is a literal god convincing/tricking another divine being into plowing into a city. Or maybe Sheoggy just tossed a rock.

Anyways, you also forgot that Colovians are native to the south of Skyrim and are native to the region as well. Remember Falkreath has been traded by Cyrodiil/Colovian Estates and Morrowind. The actual founder of the third empire is from Falkreath.

 

[S'task]

@S'task I am not sure "natural disaster" is the correct term for what happened in Morrowind- more like actual "act of god", since it is a literal god convincing/tricking another divine being into plowing into a city. Or maybe Sheoggy just tossed a rock.

Anyways, you also forgot that Colovians are native to the south of Skyrim and are native to the region as well. Remember Falkreath has been traded by Cyrodiil/Colovian Estates and Morrowind. The actual founder of the third empire is from Falkreath.

I had forgotten about those. And I've made multiple mentions of Tiber Septim (the founder of the Third Empire) being from Skyrim. The question of if he was a Nord or Breton though is up in the air, with sources claiming both. One thing he was for certain NOT was Imperial though.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I had forgotten about those. And I've made multiple mentions of Tiber Septim (the founder of the Third Empire) being from Skyrim. The question of if he was a Nord or Breton though is up in the air, with sources claiming both. One thing he was for certain NOT was Imperial though.

The actual founder, not Tiber Septim. The guy he murdered/had murdered.

 

[LindyAF]

As to the rest of your crap, I get that you're transplanting your RL politics into Skyrm and basically trolling, but the actual lore of the game strongly indicates that Skyrim, it's history and people were never an ethnostate for the Nords, but rather a mixed people of Bretons and Nords.

This is an interesting point, and there's a part of me that wishes it was possible for Bretons and Nords to set aside their differences and work to mutually achieve independence for both the Reach and Skyrim, separately, even if for historical reasons that's clearly just not workable...

OTOH the Breton independence / nationalist movement seems to be riddled with like sacrificing people to hagravens and worshipping daedra, and that shit's gotta get salted and burned.

Though it's hard to say they screwed up their homeland since, yanno, the reason they're refugees has to do with a legit natural disaster rather than anything they did or could have foreseen.

Weren't they sacrificing their own to a Daedric prince?

All that aside, I think much of the criticism of Ulfric here don't reflect that the Imperials have just as much cause to lie as the Stormcloaks do. And they don't factor in that Ulfric is the man in the arena. It takes a considerable amount of personal ambition and willingness to act even in defiance of convention in order to lead a movement that would dramatically shift the political landscape of Tamriel. Does that mean it should never be done?

 

[Aldarion]

I had forgotten about those. And I've made multiple mentions of Tiber Septim (the founder of the Third Empire) being from Skyrim. The question of if he was a Nord or Breton though is up in the air, with sources claiming both. One thing he was for certain NOT was Imperial though.

And if the Empire is anything like Roman Empire - which from what I can see it is - then helping liberation from Aldmeri Dominion while remaining a part of it would be the best of the both worlds: complete internal sovereignty yet being able to make common cause with the rest of the Empire with regards to external threats. But I've only played Oblivion, and planning on playing Morrowind, so...

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

And if the Empire is anything like Roman Empire - which from what I can see it is - then helping liberation from Aldmeri Dominion while remaining a part of it would be the best of the both worlds: complete internal sovereignty yet being able to make common cause with the rest of the Empire with regards to external threats. But I've only played Oblivion, and planning on playing Morrowind, so...

The Empire canonically runs the provinces as more or less client kingdoms. Though it varies from game to game, in Morrowind, Morrowind had a native King ruling over them and then a parallel Imperial administration ruled by a Proconsul. You should play Morrowind, it is a good game, and there is still plenty of activity in the modding community. For both OpenMW and MWSE (may still be a beta branch) you don't have the 255 plugin limit anymore (umlimited for OpenMW, and 1024 for MWSE).

 

[FriedCFour]

As to the rest of your crap, I get that you're transplanting your RL politics into Skyrm and basically trolling, but the actual lore of the game strongly indicates that Skyrim, it's history and people were never an ethnostate for the Nords, but rather a mixed people of Bretons and Nords.

and Bretons and Nords are, at a minimum, the same species. The others aren’t. And it doesn’t matter if there was a minority community or other peoples living there. The Nords swept in, they conquered it, it’s the ethnic group and their culture that dominates. Of course they are going to want to preserve that. It’s not a mixed people either lol. You have The Reach and that’s it. They are separated out and the Nordic culture dominates clearly. There’s also obvious racial conflict between Bretons and Nords as well.

In addition to that, lets not forget that, unlike Caeser, Ulfric isn't a victorious leader of men.
Man's big contribution to the war that ended in the White-Gold Concordat? His backstory of leadership and command in battle? His brave, Nord origin-story? *drum-roll* Getting captured by the elves (and possibly finagled into becoming a patsy)!

A man like Fried dedicated to the Skyrim First platform should like a Nord who wasn't captured by the elves to be High King.

Caesar was captured once too. He also freed Markarth. He did a lot more than just get captured.

You don't get to cloak yourself as a "traditionalist" and upholding tradition as Ulfric does while breaking tradition. All it showcases is that he is opportunist and self-serving, willing to say whatever best serves his immediate purposes and interests. Thus lacking honor and morals. All ingredients for petty tyranny.

sure you do. He did what he did to win. You can still be a traditionalist even if you don’t follow tradition to the point of suicide lol. When your nation and your culture is in jeopardy, you may have to break some tradition to save the whole.

 

[Battlegrinder]

his city guard being completely incompetent to find a serial killer who it terrorizing the city, among various other issues Windhelm has due to either his distraction with the war or due to him simply not caring.

Eh, that particular bit sounds like normal Bethesda "no one can do anything or solve anything without the PCs personal involvement" then anything more. I'm sure a bunch of the imperial holds have issues that are just as bad and just as unsolved.

 

[King Arts]

FudgeMuppet did release a video on the subject a few years ago:


It's not overly detailed, but it does raise a few valid points.

I like the video, but the Dragonborn is so overpowered he couldn't pick any rink dink faction to be the start of the Empire. If the Stormcloaks NEEDED the Dragonborn to survive as a state then I think they shouldn't be picked. I think that even if the Dragonborn left Cyrodil and went to the east to find the Neverrine after helping Ulfric win the civil war, the stormcloaks could still rule an independant Skyrim.

Except he did?

He at least violated the spirit of the rules of the duel in the "old Nord way" by using a Dragon Shout to kill Torygg and in fact killing him was minimally irregular (as the duels historically were not to the death).

As to him being a tyrant, he expelled Argonians and Khajit from Stormwind for no legitimate reason that I have been able to find. The entire way he governs Windhelm, in fact, point to a rather tyrannical aspect. Strict restrictions on races allowed and where they are allowed, his city guard being completely incompetent to find a serial killer who it terrorizing the city, among various other issues Windhelm has due to either his distraction with the war or due to him simply not caring.

These do not paint a picture of a man who is a good ruler, nor one whom will end up governing well or wisely. He clearly like pitting those under him against one another and uses non-Nord peoples as scapegoats even if they've done nothing wrong. These are not traits of a person who is a just ruler, but one who is likely to walk the path of tyranny.

I do remember that Khajit are usually vagrant drug addicts and criminals, but I can't remember any defining schtick for the Argonians. I think I only remember that one lady Argonian innkeeper in Riften and she seemed nice.

There was no rule against shouts, it might be orthodox but no one disputes that the duel was unfair. The Stormcloaks say it was a perfectly just duel that showed Toryg weak. The Empire says any duels to usurp authority are invalid no matter what.

For the rest of your things there are good reasons for what Ulfric did. The reason the Argonians are kept seperated from large parts of the city is to prevent race riots. Now I know you'll be thinking that just proves Ulfric is a racist, but no the Argonians would not be rioting against the Nords, they would be rioting and trying to kill the Dark Elf refugees. You see the Dark Elves kept the Argonians and other beast races as slaves until very recently. Putting two groups together in a city when one has kept the others as slaves is not a good idea. Since the Dark Elves are already here as refugees they are held in the grey quarter, and the Argonians are kept at the docks to prevent those two from mingling. It's for everyones bennefit. Maybe you think it's wrong and think the best way for the race hatred between elf and lizard is integration and that's a noble belief but Ulfric does not want to risk race riots in the middle of a war. As for the Khajit I won't bring up that almost every Khajit you pickpocket has skooma an illegal drug. No discriminating against the kitties is bad. But the Imperial holds also don't allow them in, so Ulfric is hardly unique. The only argument I can agree with is the incompetent guards who can't catch a killer, but they are busy with the civil war so there could be some leeway maybe.

 

[Battlegrinder]

As for the Khajit I won't bring up that almost every Khajit you pickpocket has skooma an illegal drug.

Literally the first one I meet was a drug dealer, who when I questioned the legality of buying drugs off him, tried to kill me.

At least I think that's what he was going to do. He said something about not having me go running to the guards and the conversion ended, but I was much faster on the draw and set him on fire before he could act.

 

[LindyAF]

Legitimately wish there was a way to solve the Khajit problem in Skyrim.

Every time I had to see them I was like damn it who let a furry design a race.

 

[King Arts]

This is an interesting point, and there's a part of me that wishes it was possible for Bretons and Nords to set aside their differences and work to mutually achieve independence for both the Reach and Skyrim, separately, even if for historical reasons that's clearly just not workable...

OTOH the Breton independence / nationalist movement seems to be riddled with like sacrificing people to hagravens and worshipping daedra, and that shit's gotta get salted and burned.

Race in Elder scrolls is weird though. The child inherits the mothers race, and they can all interbreed right so they aren't exactly different species.

Also you do get that High Rock is very independent minded they had independence movements in Elder Scrolls 2 Daggerfall. If Skyrim wins the civil war the Empire is done, High Rock won't stick around both Ulfric and Tullius are annoyed that High Rock isn't sending aid to either side and waiting to see which way the wind blows. So if Skyrim is independent High Rock will work with them.

They are very sneaky but hey what do you expect from half elves

 

[S'task]

There was no rule against shouts, it might be orthodox but no one disputes that the duel was unfair. The Stormcloaks say it was a perfectly just duel that showed Toryg weak. The Empire says any duels to usurp authority are invalid no matter what.

I said it was against the spirit of the rules, not the letter. Yes, the rules did not prohibit the Shouts. But, AFAIK, they did prohibit magic as the idea was to be a duel of arms. Shouts are not magic per se, but the use of them clearly violates the spirit of the idea of a duel of arms.

To say they are within the rules is to use the same logic that undergirds all those kids sports movies where they include a dog as part of their team. "Oh, the rules don't explicitly prohibit dogs from being players" is a cop out. The spirit of the rules was clearly violated, and no amount of Stormcloak apologism can change that. It's one of the reasons I have slowly shifted to disliking the Stormcloaks. Their entire justification for rebellion is, functionally, premised on splitting hairs to justify rebelling.

As to your reasons for expelling Argonians and Khajit, while I understand the logic, I think that it actually shows just how weak a ruler he is. If he cannot maintain law and order between two minority groups living in his capital by means other than expelling one, it shows poor management and priorities for the ruler. It also shows a penchant for collective punishments, as what you're saying is, in effect, he's punishing the Argonians for the actions (or potential actions) of a few. Again, that's not justice, nor does it show a man who's concerned with justice or proper leadership. Rather it showcases a man who is basically using the easiest possible means to solve a problem regardless of the collateral damage or the justice of the matter.

Which also means he's going to end up making things worse for Skyrim in the long run. What sacrifices will he make? What deals will he be willing to broker? Ulfric is designed to appeal to the people who like "hard men making hard decisions", but those types rarely make actual good rulers, rather, they usually become nothing more than tyrants with oceans of blood on their hands.

 

[King Arts]

I said it was against the spirit of the rules, not the letter. Yes, the rules did not prohibit the Shouts. But, AFAIK, they did prohibit magic as the idea was to be a duel of arms. Shouts are not magic per se, but the use of them clearly violates the spirit of the idea of a duel of arms.

To say they are within the rules is to use the same logic that undergirds all those kids sports movies where they include a dog as part of their team. "Oh, the rules don't explicitly prohibit dogs from being players" is a cop out. The spirit of the rules was clearly violated, and no amount of Stormcloak apologism can change that. It's one of the reasons I have slowly shifted to disliking the Stormcloaks. Their entire justification for rebellion is, functionally, premised on splitting hairs to justify rebelling.

Fuck the "sprit of the law" That is the same sort of arguments liberals used to use against Trump. The law has no spirit, it is pure letter on parchment. Though the Nords probably use oral law instead of writting down, I don't know I did not major in fictional anthropology.

As to your reasons for expelling Argonians and Khajit, while I understand the logic, I think that it actually shows just how weak a ruler he is. If he cannot maintain law and order between two minority groups living in his capital by means other than expelling one, it shows poor management and priorities for the ruler. It also shows a penchant for collective punishments, as what you're saying is, in effect, he's punishing the Argonians for the actions (or potential actions) of a few. Again, that's not justice, nor does it show a man who's concerned with justice or proper leadership. Rather it showcases a man who is basically using the easiest possible means to solve a problem regardless of the collateral damage or the justice of the matter.

Which also means he's going to end up making things worse for Skyrim in the long run. What sacrifices will he make? What deals will he be willing to broker? Ulfric is designed to appeal to the people who like "hard men making hard decisions", but those types rarely make actual good rulers, rather, they usually become nothing more than tyrants with oceans of blood on their hands.

It seems like you are starting from a conclusion (Ulfric bad) and moving backwards. Even in a time of peace having two groups that have had wars against each other and one has enslaved the other would be a trying political issue. Ulfric's solution is less invasive than what many people consider one of the greatest leaders of America did, (FDR put the Japanese in internment camps) Ulfric basically did martial law, to seperate two groups who might cause a race riot in his capital when he needs to cordinate the war with his fellow Jarls to push the Empire out.

 

[LindyAF]

Race in Elder scrolls is weird though. The child inherits the mothers race, and they can all interbreed right so they aren't exactly different species.

This is frankly a bit confusing, since some races are explicitly the result of intermarraige between other races- for instance, Bretons are essentially a race of half-elves.

I said it was against the spirit of the rules, not the letter. Yes, the rules did not prohibit the Shouts. But, AFAIK, they did prohibit magic as the idea was to be a duel of arms. Shouts are not magic per se, but the use of them clearly violates the spirit of the idea of a duel of arms.

To say they are within the rules is to use the same logic that undergirds all those kids sports movies where they include a dog as part of their team. "Oh, the rules don't explicitly prohibit dogs from being players" is a cop out. The spirit of the rules was clearly violated, and no amount of Stormcloak apologism can change that. It's one of the reasons I have slowly shifted to disliking the Stormcloaks. Their entire justification for rebellion is, functionally, premised on splitting hairs to justify rebelling.

Eh... did Torygg stand a chance even without Ulfric's Thu'um? It's been a while since I played but my read on it was always that it would have been hopelessly onesided even without Ulfric's shouting, and the reason the duel was looked at unfavorably for Ulfric wasn't that he took an unfair advantage, but rather that it was so onesided, that he didn't give Torygg a chance to surrendur, and that his use of Thu'um was for narrative/propaganda reasons in a way that was unfair to Torygg.

 

[S'task]

Fuck the "sprit of the law" That is the same sort of arguments liberals used to use against Trump. The law has no spirit, it is pure letter on parchment. Though the Nords probably use oral law instead of writting down, I don't know I did not major in fictional anthropology.

. . . No? I've never seen someone argue that with Trump, and the idea of the "spirit of the law" has jack shit to do with political views. It's basically asking "what are these rules seeking to accomplish?" and seeing how that compared to how people are acting under them.

It seems like you are starting from a conclusion (Ulfric bad) and moving backwards. Even in a time of peace having two groups that have had wars against each other and one has enslaved the other would be a trying political issue. Ulfric's solution is less invasive than what many people consider one of the greatest leaders of America did, (FDR put the Japanese in internment camps) Ulfric basically did martial law, to seperate two groups who might cause a race riot in his capital when he needs to cordinate the war with his fellow Jarls to push the Empire out.

Firstly, I consider FDR barely a step removed from a tyrant and to have been the second worst president of the 20th century (Wilson barely edging him out), and one who did more damage to the country than anyone else in the 20th century period... so holding up FDR as a defense against Ulfric being a poor leader and not a tyrant is... umm... yeah, not really a defense.

And frankly, other people have done the same thing, they have started with the assumption that Stormcloaks = good, while also transplanting their own modern politics onto the matter. Compared to that level of motivated reasoning, I don't think I have gotten anywhere near it.

I would also note, that on my initial playthrough of Skyrim I sided with the Stormcloaks, and thought Ulfric was a decent guy, it was only via multiple playthroughs and reading up on more lore that I changed my conclusion about him, and began noticing the many warning signs that Bethesda put in place that indicated that Ulfric is not a good guy. So no, I didn't start with that conclusion and work backwards...

Eh... did Torygg stand a chance even without Ulfric's Thu'um? It's been a while since I played but my read on it was always that it would have been hopelessly onesided even without Ulfric's shouting, and the reason the duel was looked at unfavorably for Ulfric wasn't that he took an unfair advantage, but rather that it was so onesided, that he didn't give Torygg a chance to surrendur, and that his use of Thu'um was for narrative/propaganda reasons in a way that was unfair to Torygg.

He probably wouldn't have won a dual against Ulfric from everything, but it would not have been as one sided and it likely wouldn't have given Ulfric an excuse to rebel because the other lords wouldn't have rejected the situation so thoroughly. Ulfric wanted to rebel though, he wanted bright lines between those loyal to him and those not, as it made drawing the battle lines easier and meant he didn't have to worry about handling the politics of the situation.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Going through Helgen, I was struck by how much Ulfric was mentioned, I suspect in an imperial playthrough the NPCs are not constantly worrying about the fate of general Tullis and pinning the empire's hopes on his survival.

began noticing the many warning signs that Bethesda put in place that indicated that Ulfric is not a good guy.

You fight an actual imperial torturer on the way out of Helgen, I feel like Ulfric has plenty of competition in the "hinted to not really be a good person" category.

 

[FriedCFour]

Race in Elder scrolls is weird though. The child inherits the mothers race, and they can all interbreed right so they aren't exactly different species.

I don’t think that happens with argonians and Khajits

If he cannot maintain law and order between two minority groups living in his capital by means other than expelling one, it shows poor management and priorities for the ruler. It also shows a penchant for collective punishments, as what you're saying is, in effect, he's punishing the Argonians for the actions (or potential actions) of a few. Again, that's not justice, nor does it show a man who's concerned with justice or proper leadership. Rather it showcases a man who is basically using the easiest possible means to solve a problem regardless of the collateral damage or the justice of the matter.

It’s perfectly correct. They don’t belong there. It shows long term thinking and wanting to maintain Nordic culture and its people. They take the Jobs Nords need under a crisis. There’s no reason to have even one there.

 

[FriedCFour]

Which also means he's going to end up making things worse for Skyrim in the long run. What sacrifices will he make? What deals will he be willing to broker? Ulfric is designed to appeal to the people who like "hard men making hard decisions", but those types rarely make actual good rulers, rather, they usually become nothing more than tyrants with oceans of blood on their hands.

every great man in history follows that lol.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

Personally, what turned me against Ulric for good was his introduction scene in his castle. "Damn the Jarls! And damn the Moot!"
Winning the duel with shouts, I can accept that. I mean, as the Dragonborn, I use shouts to win duels as well, so it would be hypocritical of me to denounce its uses. But disregarding the opinions of the Jarls, the people he's supposed to rule over after the civil war and dismissing the one thing that could legitimize him as the High King, I could not agree with that. I can't articulate why, I just don't agree with that stance. It made him look a lot more powerhungry than what he should've been.