Stormcloaks vs Imperials

[King Arts]

I don't think there is a thread for this topic so I decided to make it, even if the game is old.
In the civil war in the game Skyrim which faction do you believe is morally in the right?

 

[Free-Stater 101]

It depends on if you want the Thalmor to win round two or not. Despite banning Talos Worship it's still practiced privately and could still be reinstated after a victory in the next war.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Ulfric Stormcloak is not a good leader for skyrim and in truth neither is Elsif. The best thing for skyrim would be for the dragonborn to rule Skyrim and marry Someone like Mjoll the lioness, or Thane Bryling (if male) or someone like Ralof or Jarl Balgruuf the Greater (if female) Really the big concern would be Ulfric as I really don't think it'd be hard to get Elisif to step down. She's way in over her head and I think deep down she knows it.

 

[King Arts]

But do you think the Imperials WANT to fight the Thalmor? They act like cuckservatives or beaten dogs and are trying to maintain the peace when it is disadvantageous for them to put off the war too long. Humans can rebuild their population faster than elves after all.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

But do you think the Imperials WANT to fight the Thalmor? They act like cuckservatives or beaten dogs and are trying to maintain the peace when it is disadvantageous for them to put off the war too long. Humans can rebuild their population faster than elves after all.

oh the emeperor is limpwristed, the Dragonborn and Tulius on the other hand not so much.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Stormcloaks.

My impression is that the Empire is a lost cause. Tulius clings to a glorious vision of an empire that is long past and hasn't existed in reality for a long, long time. I also felt that Tulius was only paying lip service to the idea of "we're not really bowing to the Thalmor" and there wasn't any plan to actually fight back, and that if the Empire won in Skyrim, they were just going to keep taking Ls from their Thalmor overlords.

Also, I'm in favor of people ruling over themselves, not in monolithic empires that try to dominate everything.

As for the Stormcloaks, I was rooting for them. They have cultural unity and legit motivations that the imperials do not. Ulfric comes across as a good leader.

People like to go "but muh elf racism" but it rings hollow, as if they don't have any concrete reasons to support the Empire. From what I saw ingame, elf discrimination is very sparse. The scene you see when you enter Windhelm for the first time is pretty petty. There doesn't seem to be a societal wide problem against the elves in Skyrim, and what rift there is can be mended in time. You can support the Stormcloaks and still try to change it from within; those are not two mutually exclusive things.

Skyrim's civil war story felt like a part 1 of 2. After the Imperials were beaten back, I felt that the next step was "YES! We're going to ally with Hammerfell and go beat back those Thalmor bastards!" but the story just ends with Tulius' death. The various "fight the Thalmor" mods felt like a natural continuation of the story.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

But do you think the Imperials WANT to fight the Thalmor? They act like cuckservatives or beaten dogs and are trying to maintain the peace when it is disadvantageous for them to put off the war too long. Humans can rebuild their population faster than elves after all.

Yes. It is apparent in the way everyone talks, the Imperials, the Thalmor and pretty much everyone else. Actually, I am pretty sure the Stormcloaks are the "cucks" given that they are controlled opposition set by a hostile foreign power... as per the Thalmor Dossier.

oh the emeperor is limpwristed, the Dragonborn and Tulius on the other hand not so much.

You mean the Emperor who probably arranged his own assassination so that he could create a political martyr?

Stormcloaks.

My impression is that the Empire is a lost cause. Tulius clings to a glorious vision of an empire that is long past and hasn't existed in reality for a long, long time. I also felt that Tulius was only paying lip service to the idea of "we're not really bowing to the Thalmor" and there wasn't any plan to actually fight back, and that if the Empire won in Skyrim, they were just going to keep taking Ls from their Thalmor overlords.

Also, I'm in favor of people ruling over themselves, not in monolithic empires that try to dominate everything.

As for the Stormcloaks, I was rooting for them. They have cultural unity and legit motivations that the imperials do not. Ulfric comes across as a good leader.

People like to go "but muh elf racism" but it rings hollow, as if they don't have any concrete reasons to support the Empire. From what I saw ingame, elf discrimination is very sparse. The scene you see when you enter Windhelm for the first time is pretty petty. There doesn't seem to be a societal wide problem against the elves in Skyrim, and what rift there is can be mended in time. You can support the Stormcloaks and still try to change it from within; those are not two mutually exclusive things.

Skyrim's civil war story felt like a part 1 of 2. After the Imperials were beaten back, I felt that the next step was "YES! We're going to ally with Hammerfell and go beat back those Thalmor bastards!" but the story just ends with Tulius' death. The various "fight the Thalmor" mods felt like a natural continuation of the story.

Skyrim on its own fighting the Aldmeri Dominion. That is hilarious.

 

[Battlegrinder]

I don't think there is a thread for this topic so I decided to make it, even if the game is old.
In the civil war in the game Skyrim which faction do you believe is morally in the right?

It's actually pretty timely, I'm just about to get around to playing skyrim, and I've been pondering the decision of who I want to side with for a while.

That said, I think it's a mistake to phrase it as a matter of moral righteous, my understanding is that the game very intentionally paints the conflict in shades of grey rather than a strict good/bad dichotomy.

Actually, I am pretty sure the Stormcloaks are the "cucks" given that they are controlled opposition set by a hostile foreign power... as per the Thalmor Dossier.

You mean this? That doesn't say he's working for the Thalmor, it says him fighting the civil war (note, fighting the civil war, not winning it) serves the Thalmor's interests.

I don't think Bethesda went through all the effort of setting up the two sides to both have valid points and be presented as viable choices to the player, if they actually intended on having the imperials be the good guys and the stormcloaks actually being duped by the bad guys, with the only hint of that being a single document hidden away in one mission.

Skyrim on its own fighting the Aldmeri Dominion. That is hilarious.

I think the game's intent is to suggest that yes, Skyrim could take on the Aldmeri and stand up to them? Ulfric and many of the stormcloak's leaders are veterans of the great war, they should know what both skyrim and the dominion are capable of, and they think they can do it.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

It's actually pretty timely, I'm just about to get around to playing skyrim, and I've been pondering the decision of who I want to side with for a while.

That said, I think it's a mistake to phrase it as a matter of moral righteous, my understanding is that the game very intentionally paints the conflict in shades of grey rather than a strict good/bad dichotomy.

All you have to do is look into the lore, and play the previous games to see how vital the Empire is. Without it, you have constant fighting between the people of Tamriel, who are then exhausted and too disunited to face the myriad of external threats (or internal like the Thalmor) that the continent faces on a regular basis. And Tamriel now lacks many of the people who could have defended it in the absence of a united Empire like the Tribunal.

The Stormcloaks are the wrong choice, full stop, because they weaken the Empire needed to protect Tamriel from things like Sea Elf Pirates, Vampire Snakemen, Crab People, pretty much demons, Ice Youkai, invasion from alternate timelines, dragons, the return of a dead-yet-dreaming god, possible invasion by Tigermen (and Tiger-dragons), Elf Nazis trying to destroy reality...

Yeah, if you look into the only choice is the Empire (or the Dragonborn forming their own Empire). Because Empires in TES tend to be vital, and needed for many reasons. Not limited to, but including the fact that Nirn kind of is a deathworld.

You mean this? That doesn't say he's working for the Thalmor, it says him fighting the civil war (note, fighting the civil war, not winning it) serves the Thalmor's interests.

I don't think Bethesda went through all the effort of setting up the two sides to both have valid points and be presented as viable choices to the player, if they actually intended on having the imperials be the good guys and the stormcloaks actually being duped by the bad guys, with the only hint of that being a single document hidden away in one mission.

It is almost as if they were attempting subtle storytelling and were trying to leave breadcrumbs, because they were trying for a storyline, with two grey factions being strung along by the real villain, who may or may not want to end the world and unleash a stompy robot on everyone by accident?

So a literal official document in-universe that is an actual intelligence report and wouldn't have any reason to lie, isn't actual evidence of intent? It pretty much says that Thalmor set him up, by breaking him, as an asset and he went off the reservation.

I think the game's intent is to suggest that yes, Skyrim could take on the Aldmeri and stand up to them? Ulfric and many of the stormcloak's leaders are veterans of the great war, they should know what both skyrim and the dominion are capable of, and they think they can do it.

That is utterly absurd. A country that just had a ruinous civil war is suddenly able to take on the winner of the last war, when they nation they seceded from could only force a disadvantageous peace.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

it's not so much Ulfric being a racist tha

It is almost as if they were attempting subtle storytelling and were trying to leave breadcrumbs, because they were trying for a storyline, with two grey factions being strung along by the real villain, who may or may not want to end the world and unleash a stompy robot on everyone by accident?

Wait, they were going to unleash liberty prime?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

it's not so much Ulfric being a racist tha


Wait, they were going to unleash liberty prime?

It is a C0DA reference, basically in Crack-I mean Kirkbride's lore the Thalmor basically accidentally let the Numidium out of the time bubble it is trapped in, after they are successful in their remove humanity from existence utterly plan. And then it screws everything up, they then realize they dun goofed and sacrifice themselves so that others might escape as they wanted to.

It is more or less a lore joke. Because the Thalmor actually wanting to remove humanity from existence as part of a gnostic escape attempt is ambigiously canon. And C0DA most probably is not canon.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

That is utterly absurd. A country that just had a ruinous civil war is suddenly able to take on the winner of the last war, when they nation they seceded from could only force a disadvantageous peace.

... What ruin? We don't really see any cities or the countryside being burned during the Skyrim civil war. The fight is limited to a few skirmishes out in the fields, capturing a few rundown forts, and capturing a few cities with minimal civilian casualties and destruction of private property.

Perhaps if one side was doing mass conscription, and we saw the there weren't enough people being able to tend their farms, leading to famine... or if there was wholesale pillaging of the countryside as farms and villages were burned, or there were massacres, but that's not the case. I think you're projecting the American view of a "civil war", where an entire nation's populace and industry is mobilized, and thus the populace and their private property becomes acceptable targets. This was historically not the case for medieval warfare (outside of a few extreme exceptions like the 30 years war). The Skyrim civil war fews like the War of the Roses, where the participants are (mostly) fighting out in the fields, and the average person in a village or a town is mostly unaffected.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

... What ruin? We don't really see any cities or the countryside being burned during the Skyrim civil war. The fight is limited to a few skirmishes out in the fields, capturing a few rundown forts, and capturing a few cities with minimal civilian casualties and destruction of private property.

Perhaps if one side was doing mass conscription, and we saw the there weren't enough people being able to tend their farms, leading to famine... or if there was wholesale pillaging of the countryside as farms and villages were burned, or there were massacres, but that's not the case. I think you're projecting the American view of a "civil war", where an entire nation's populace and industry is mobilized, and thus the populace and their private property becomes acceptable targets. This was historically not the case for medieval warfare (outside of a few extreme exceptions like the 30 years war). The Skyrim civil war fews like the War of the Roses, where the participants are (mostly) fighting out in the fields, and the average person in a village or a town is mostly unaffected.

We don't see anything, because of gameplay limitations and the fact that the Civil War is an unfinished questline that is cut. And it is hard to tell actual damage when everything has been compressed to the scale of a small city. And the problem is, we only see a few battles in the war, when there is implied to be constant fighting. So I don't think we can draw anything from an unfinished and heavily cut down questline. And if we were, we'd have to take other gameplay limitations into account too.

 

[Battlegrinder]

All you have to do is look into the lore, and play the previous games to see how vital the Empire is. Without it, you have constant fighting between the people of Tamriel, who are then exhausted and too disunited to face the myriad of external threats (or internal like the Thalmor) that the continent faces on a regular basis. And Tamriel now lacks many of the people who could have defended it in the absence of a united Empire like the Tribunal.

The Stormcloaks are the wrong choice, full stop, because they weaken the Empire needed to protect Tamriel from things like Sea Elf Pirates, Vampire Snakemen, Crab People, pretty much demons, Ice Youkai, invasion from alternate timelines, dragons, the return of a dead-yet-dreaming god, possible invasion by Tigermen (and Tiger-dragons), Elf Nazis trying to destroy reality...

Yeah, if you look into the only choice is the Empire (or the Dragonborn forming their own Empire). Because Empires in TES tend to be vital, and needed for many reasons. Not limited to, but including the fact that Nirn kind of is a deathworld.

The only other game in the series I've played is ESO, plus a rough understand of how the plot of Oblivion worked. For ESO, many of the threats you mentioned did indeed show up, and none of them required the entirety of Tamriel to band together and stop, few of them really even needed to be stopped. Yeah, sea elf pirates are a pain, but they're not an existential threat, nor were most of the others (Molag Bal was the only exception, and he was defeated by two guilds + the PC, a level of face nearly any single realm could have matched).

It is almost as if they were attempting subtle storytelling and were trying to leave breadcrumbs, because they were trying for a storyline, with two grey factions being strung along by the real villain, who may or may not want to end the world and unleash a stompy robot on everyone by accident?

I've played several bethesda games. They do not do subtle breadcrumbs storytelling, I doubt Skyrim is any different.

So a literal official document in-universe that is an actual intelligence report and wouldn't have any reason to lie, isn't actual evidence of intent? It pretty much says that Thalmor set him up, by breaking him, as an asset and he went off the reservation.

Yes, it says the Thalmor played a role in starting the civil war. It does not say the stormcloaks are "controlled opposition" and it does say that they one thing they don't want is for the war to end decisively.

That is utterly absurd. A country that just had a ruinous civil war is suddenly able to take on the winner of the last war, when they nation they seceded from could only force a disadvantageous peace.

That is what Ulfric says, yes. And to my knowledge, no ones suggests that doing so is impossible or that he's a madman to try doing so.

 

[King Arts]

Skyrim on its own fighting the Aldmeri Dominion. That is hilarious.

You do realize that for the Thalmor to win they need to be on the offense. While Skyrim might not be able to invade the Summerset Isles it’s unlikely that the Thalmor can invade Skyrim since they couldn’t crack Hammerfell which is closer to them and would have easier supply lines.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

You do realize that for the Thalmor to win they need to be on the offense. While Skyrim might not be able to invade the Summerset Isles it’s unlikely that the Thalmor can invade Skyrim since they couldn’t crack Hammerfell which is closer to them and would have easier supply lines.

So it would be a stalemate with Skyrim and the Thalmor staring angrily at each other? Unfortunate, too bad they didn't have any southern ports nor land borders like say...the people of Cyrod have. How unfortunate.

The only other game in the series I've played is ESO, plus a rough understand of how the plot of Oblivion worked. For ESO, many of the threats you mentioned did indeed show up, and none of them required the entirety of Tamriel to band together and stop, few of them really even needed to be stopped. Yeah, sea elf pirates are a pain, but they're not an existential threat, nor were most of the others (Molag Bal was the only exception, and he was defeated by two guilds + the PC, a level of face nearly any single realm could have matched).

Arena says otherwise. Well, unless you believe Jagar had other motivations. Mehrunes had him take over the Empire to run it into the ground to get it out of the way. Or also the plot of battlespire.

I've played several bethesda games. They do not do subtle breadcrumbs storytelling, I doubt Skyrim is any different.

Actually they did this in Morrowind, but that was Kirkbride and some other good writers writing good backstory.

Yes, it says the Thalmor played a role in starting the civil war. It does not say the stormcloaks are "controlled opposition" and it does say that they one thing they don't want is for the war to end decisively.

Basically it is more advantageous for Skyrim and the Empire to bleed each other out.

That is what Ulfric says, yes. And to my knowledge, no ones suggests that doing so is impossible or that he's a madman to try doing so.

I am pretty sure the fact that they gave the empire that much trouble is a sign.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

That is what Ulfric says, yes. And to my knowledge, no ones suggests that doing so is

Battlegrinder, if I used this same argument in our past Fallout debates regarding Mr. House you would have laughed at me.

Nothing other than Nationalistic spiel from Ulfrics followers about Nord toughness has ever been mentioned in regard to them defeating the dominion to my knowledge.

No tactics, no plan for a buildup and no plans on how a war torn province is to take on one of Tamriels two superpowers.

It's like a independent Texas snack talking about beating China by itself.

You do realize that for the Thalmor to win they need to be on the offense. While Skyrim might not be able to invade the Summerset Isles it’s unlikely that the Thalmor can invade Skyrim since they couldn’t crack Hammerfell which is closer to them and would have easier supply lines.

They still one the war regardless, and the only reason the redguard insurgancy wasnt slaughterd by the Thalmor in a brief genocide was to avoid provoking the empire into attacking preemptively.

The Thalmor don't plan to kill their enemies all at once. They want to use their immortality to their advantage and wear them down slowly overtime.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Arena says otherwise. Well, unless you believe Jagar had other motivations. Mehrunes had him take over the Empire to run it into the ground to get it out of the way. Or also the plot of battlespire.

I'm pretty sure bethesda's intent with the setting was not "you have to have played this clunky Ultima Underworld clone from 25 years ago to understand the correct choice to make in the current game". Bethesda knows their games will attract people who's first experience with the setting is the newest game (hello!), I don't think they would gatekeep things like that.

Basically it is more advantageous for Skyrim and the Empire to bleed each other out.

Yes.

I am pretty sure the fact that they gave the empire that much trouble is a sign.

Which "they" are you referring to?

Battlegrinder, if I used this same argument in our past Fallout debates regarding Mr. House you would have laughed at me.

Nothing other than Nationalistic spiel from Ulfrics followers about Nord toughness has ever been mentioned in regard to them defeating the dominion to my knowledge.

No tactics, no plan for a buildup and no plans on how a war torn province is to take on one of Tamriels two superpowers.

It's like a independent Texas snack talking about beating China by itself.

Er, that depends on what you're talking about. Obsidian clearly did not intend for all 4 choices in NV to be equivalent to one another, they were presented as having strengths and weaknesses, for example with the legion clearly presented as a negative for the Mojave. That is not how the legion and stormcloaks are presented, is it?

EDIT: Specifically with regard to "isolated province vs Dominion"....Hammerfall did it, why can't Skyrim?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I'm pretty sure bethesda's intent with the setting was not "you have to have played this clunky Ultima Underworld clone from 25 years ago to understand the correct choice to make in the current game". Bethesda knows their games will attract people who's first experience with the setting is the newest game (hello!), I don't think they would gatekeep things like that.

Ultima Clone, lol. All you have to do is open up the good wiki, or read the lore, or forums. It is plenty easy to understand. And as we have learned, some degree of gatekeeping is actually good. The lore is readily accessible, and I'd rather Bethesda not chase a wider-audience when they got a baked in fanbase.

Yes.

Good we agree.

Which "they" are you referring to?

The Elves who shop at Hugo Boss.

Er, that depends on what you're talking about. Obsidian clearly did not intend for all 4 choices in NV to be equivalent to one another, they were presented as having strengths and weaknesses, for example with the legion clearly presented as a negative for the Mojave. That is not how the legion and stormcloaks are presented, is it?

EDIT: Specifically with regard to "isolated province vs Dominion"....Hammerfall did it, why can't Skyrim?

Driving the Thalmor out, or contesting the invasion really isn't much to go by. To defeat the Dominion you have to drive them out of mainland Tamriel and then out of Summerset.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Ultima Clone, lol.

I calll em as I see them.

All you have to do is open up the good wiki, or read the lore, or forums. It is plenty easy to understand. And as we have learned, some degree of gatekeeping is actually good. The lore is readily accessible, and I'd rather Bethesda not chase a wider-audience when they got a baked in fanbase.

It is a massive flaw in any narrative if you have to step away from the work itself and go dig through ancillary materials to understand the setting, which luckily I don't think is the case for TES. How many skyrim players do you think have played arena?

The Elves who shop at Hugo Boss.

So, how come hammerfell managed to take them on all by themselves, and win?

Driving the Thalmor out, or contesting the invasion really isn't much to go by. To defeat the Dominion you have to drive them out of mainland Tamriel and then out of Summerset.

Presuming that's true (which I have doubts about, bottling them up in summerset until the internal pressure tears them apart sounds at least possible), that doesn't sound like it'd be impossible.