Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Would you call DS9 'not really Trek' because it diverged from what Roddenberry liked to push about how science and logic could resolve almost any conflict?
Sorry to jump in here but I have strong opinions on this.

I am a big believer in death of the author. Props to Roddenberry and Lucas for creating incredible settings. But I think it's absolutely ridiculous to lock a setting into whatever vision the creator had for it.

Roddenberry in particular had some odd views for trek. That the federation was our future utopia and humans had grown past going against each other and untoward displays of emotion. Among other things.

After he stopped being in a position of control, around season 2 next generation as I recall, they started doing what I consider much more interesting and engaging stories. And ds9 is about my favorite television show ever and Roddenberry would have hated it.

The same with Star Wars. George had a vision. Some parts are good some are bad. The setting is not beholden to that vision. It can and has expanded beyond it.

The issue now is that the stuff we are getting is garbage instead of great like ds9 was.
 
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Sorry to jump in here but I have strong opinions on this.

I am a big believer in death of the author. Props to Roddenberry and Lucas for creating incredible settings. But I think it's absolutely ridiculous to lock a setting into whatever vision the creator had for it.

Roddenberry in particular had some odd views for trek. That the federation was our future utopia and human had grow past going against each other and untoward displays of emotion. Among other things.

After he stopped being in a position on control, around season 2 next generation as I recall, they started doing what I consider much more interesting and engaging stories. And ds9 is about my favorite television show ever and Roddenberry would have hated it.

The same with Star Wars. George had a vision. Some parts are good some are bad. The setting is not beholden to that vision. It can and has expanded beyond it.

The issue now is that the stuff we are getting is garbage instead of great like ds9 was.
That's why I liked Andor, because it was something Lucas probably won't have done on his own, and the team who did it had just come off doing HBO's Chernobyl (some of the same actors too) so they brought the same cinematic feeling from that over to Star Wars, and produced the show in the UK instead of Hollywood so they could get decent, proper British actors for the Imperials as well as avoid some of the pitfalls of Hollywood's/KK's bias/thinking.

I'm also fine with a death of the author feeling, because frankly Lucas sold SW because he wanted the money and was tired of being saddled with it, but once it became big again under Disney Lucas suddenly realized that his IP was more valuable than he'd thought and that more people were wanting to play in that sandbox.

If Disney could put out the SW equivalent of DS9, it would probably save the franchise from a lot of haters.
 
Bajoran Prophets and Q would like a word or two about the 'metaphysics' bit.

Both framed as extra-dimensional entities; appearing god-like to us, but understood as entities that function in the setting's largely irreligious context. Neither are they, of course, all-encompassing entities or agents embodying morality. In fact, it's a whole point that Q in particular tends to present himself as such, but he gets called out on it time and again.


No, Andor is Star Wars for grown ups, instead of 12 year olds

Earlier, you used "SW is for 12 year olds" as your argument. However, even disregarding that strange foible, you're wrong. You make a variation of what might be called the "Troy Denning error": that to be mature, something must be cynical. You consistently present idealism and moral absolutism as childish, and cynicism and moral relativism as mature.

This is actually a quite juvenile attitude. Edgelordism with a few extra steps, basically.


Star Wars is not static as franchise, it will always change, and the adult fans will want material that isn't pandering to 12 year olds for toys sales.

The fact is that your personal preference for a cynical, supposedly "realistic" take on the setting is in truth childish. It's the intellectually lazy stance that requires little from either the characters or the audience. The position Lucas took -- that of absolute morality -- requires far greater courage. It demands that you do the right thing, even when it is hard (as opposed to the easy thing, because it is "smart").

The view that we must act rightly is inspiring, and rejects the moral ambivalence that guides us to easy paths which in turn lead (invariably) to dim places.

The point is that a thing changed beyond its essence is no longer itself. I can paint over the Mona Lisa, but then it is no longer the Mona Lisa. Ultimately, whatever you do, you must either stay true to thing itself... or make a new thing, separate from this thing.

There can be fun stories that are entirely bleak and cynical. Cyberpunk as a genre relies on this assumption, for instance. You can even re-imagine (for instance) fairy tales in this manner. But that's what you're doing: re-imagining. Writing fanfic. And that's fine, but it's not true to the canon.


That people don't like 'serious' Star Wars like Andor is rather revealing, in that people don't want the stories of the average person in SW or their lives, all they want are the Jedi and Sith fights and Force fuckery and black and white morality to escape from the real world's grey areas.

That you see morally grey stuff as "serious" and moral rectitude as "unserious" is rather revealing, too.

I view the obsession with "moral greyness" as deeply unserious.
 
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Sorry to jump in here but I have strong opinions on this.

I am a big believer in death of the author. Props to Roddenberry and Lucas for creating incredible settings. But I think it's absolutely ridiculous to lock a setting into whatever vision the creator had for it.

Roddenberry in particular had some odd views for trek. That the federation was our future utopia and humans had grown past going against each other and untoward displays of emotion. Among other things.

After he stopped being in a position of control, around season 2 next generation as I recall, they started doing what I consider much more interesting and engaging stories. And ds9 is about my favorite television show ever and Roddenberry would have hated it.

The same with Star Wars. George had a vision. Some parts are good some are bad. The setting is not beholden to that vision. It can and has expanded beyond it.

The issue now is that the stuff we are getting is garbage instead of great like ds9 was.


this a million times this.
 
Earlier, you used "SW is for 12 year olds" as your argument. However, even disregarding that strange foible, you're wrong. You make a variation of what might be called the "Troy Denning error": that to be mature, something must be cynical. You consistently present idealism and moral absolutism as childish, and cynicism and moral relativism as mature.

This is actually a quite juvenile attitude. Edgelordism with a few extra steps, basically.
As far as I've seen in life, idealism is childish, and pretending that the world operates on black and white morality only leaves one unprepared for the reality of all the shades of grey in this world.

Children need to be taught and prepared to survive the world they inhabit, with all it's nuances, and realize that 'black and white morality' rarely exist outside of opposing obvious evils like the Nazi's or Hamas.

I care more about preparing children to succeed and deal with the world as it is, rather than filling their heads with lies about the world, just because said lies make the adults feel good and the adults do not want to face up to the world they are raising kids in and will leave to their kids.
The fact is that your personal preference for a cynical, supposedly "realistic" take on the setting is in truth childish. It's the intellectually lazy stance that requires little from either the characters or the audience. The position Lucas took -- that of absolute morality -- requires far greater courage. It demands that you do the right thing, even when it is hard (as opposed to the easy thing, because it is "smart").
That is because I understand that people who ignore Sun Tzu's dictates and wisdom are fools who think their holy books or idealism are any match to a purely secular text on how to win conflicts.

Lucas and Filoni are good artists and story tellers, but it seems like only Zahn ever undertook an serious study of how wars actually are fought and incorporated into his writing.

And wanting realism isn't childish, nor is cynical thinking the point of it or what I'd want out of Star Wars.
The view that we must act rightly is inspiring, and rejects the moral ambivalence that guides us to easy paths which in turn lead (invariably) to dim places.
"Ask the ghosts of a trillion dead souls if honor matters; their silence is your answer."-Javik

Righteousness is no substitute for effectiveness, and Lucas does no one any favors by lying to kids about that fact.

The amount of comforting lies told to kids by people of Lucas's generation, because they don't want to face up to the realities of the world themselves a lot of times, have done massive social damage to the younger generations.
The point is that a thing changed beyond its essence is no longer itself. I can paint over the Mona Lisa, but then it is no longer the Mona Lisa. Ultimately, whatever you do, you must either stay true to thing itself... or make a new thing, separate from this thing.
Telling adult stories with political and social complexities and which doesn't portray the hero's as squeaky clean, doesn't suddenly make something 'not Star Wars'.
There can be fun stories that are entirely bleak and cynical. Cyberpunk as a genre relies on this assumption, for instance. You can even re-imagine (for instance) fairy tales in this manner. But that's what you're doing: re-imagining. Writing fanfic. And that's fine, but it's not true to the canon.
The Yuuzhan Vong would like a word about what is and is not Star Wars based on tone and 'cyncism/vs idealism'.

Shit, by your metric the fucking Rogue Squadron and Black Fleet books shouldn't be considered Star Wars properties.
That you see morally grey stuff as "serious" and moral rectitude as "unserious" is rather revealing, too.

I view the obsession with "moral greyness" as deeply unserious.
No, I want shit that doesn't pander to 12 year olds and doesn't insult the adult fans; Andor did that, and did it well.
 
Moral ambiguity can be the stance of writers who are cowards or lying to their readers.

What are the readers supposed to do, not cheer for anyone? Embrace nihilism? Or pretend that the writer won’t play favorites for one side? At which point it easily becomes hollow window dressing.
 
Moral ambiguity can be the stance of writers who are cowards or lying to their readers.

What are the readers supposed to do, not cheer for anyone? Embrace nihilism? Or pretend that the writer won’t play favorites for one side? At which point it easily becomes hollow window dressing.

this. I don't read a lot of modern horror because "Too bleak didn't read." even in the bleakest of worlds we want a reason to root for someone and we want them to win.
 
Star wars is a big setting. A entire galaxy.

There is plenty of room for any story one can think of as long as it doesn't violate any basic setting rules or what not.

Straight up good vs evil? Easy. The jedi and Sith are perfect for that.

More gritty stuff. No problem. We have a empire taking over and being resisted. Crime lords. Smugglers.

They and everything in between can fit.

It just depends on the quality of the stories. Good stories = a good expanded universe. It doesn't even have to be mostly good. A lot of the EU was kinda not great. But the good stuff WAS great. And that carried it.

But if we get nothing but bad stories then it eventually destroys the setting. Makes people not care about it anymore. And it kills the brand.

Hell, I think Andor is good but it was way too little and way too late. They had already destroyed the setting and characters I cared about and replaced them with... trash.
 
Hey guys, hows the conversation on Star Wars going... whoa...

As far as I've seen in life, idealism is childish, and pretending that the world operates on black and white morality only leaves one unprepared for the reality of all the shades of grey in this world.

Children need to be taught and prepared to survive the world they inhabit, with all it's nuances, and realize that 'black and white morality' rarely exist outside of opposing obvious evils like the Nazi's or Hamas.

I care more about preparing children to succeed and deal with the world as it is, rather than filling their heads with lies about the world, just because said lies make the adults feel good and the adults do not want to face up to the world they are raising kids in and will leave to their kids.

That is because I understand that people who ignore Sun Tzu's dictates and wisdom are fools who think their holy books or idealism are any match to a purely secular text on how to win conflicts.

And wanting realism isn't childish, nor is cynical thinking the point of it or what I'd want out of Star Wars.

"Ask the ghosts of a trillion dead souls if honor matters; their silence is your answer."-Javik

Righteousness is no substitute for effectiveness, and Lucas does no one any favors by lying to kids about that fact.

The amount of comforting lies told to kids by people of Lucas's generation, because they don't want to face up to the realities of the world themselves a lot of times, have done massive social damage to the younger generations.

Telling adult stories with political and social complexities and which doesn't portray the hero's as squeaky clean, doesn't suddenly make something 'not Star Wars'.

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I'll uhhh come back later when the Holocaust discussion is over.
 
I would watch TFA and TRoS over Episodes 1 and 2. Not that Episodes 1 and 2 are even all that bad, but TFA and TRoS are better.

TFA is a bad movie. It is barreling through scenes at a breakneck pace. There is no time to have a moment of reflection. In the original trilogy and in the prequels, there were moments of reflection where characters talked quietly to each other, or sat and looked at the scenary while the score played and let you know their mood and how they were feeling. Luke stares at the twin suns.

The movie undermined any sense of tension by having the pilot guy mock the villain in the opening scene.

Rey is a trouser character. She's a guy with tits. She exhibits no female perspective or traits whatsoever. She is an ostensibly female character. And then you have the lack of tension since she succeeds at everything on the first try, and you question why the other characters are even here if Rey can singlehandedly do everything.

In the original Star Wars movies, John Williams' music was an extra narrator, that told you about the Force or the Dark Side or Darth Vader. His score was also a big impact in the Prequel trilogy too. But in TFA, the score is mediocre. You're hearing a lot of the old original trilogy themes being rehashed. The only big exposition of the orchestra is in the opening credits. After that, the orchestra is relegated to providing constant dissonance, like every other modern movie score. You don't get that constant moving along of melodic themes with an orchestra sound. There are no no new recgonizeable themes. The sound mixing of TFA is also bad. Everything is mastered at the same volume. There is no "punch" like the sound of a loud blaster like in the Original Trilogy.

Aesthetically the movie was meh. It rehashes the same looks of ANH (utilitarian spaceships with the dulled paint, grotesque aliens, desert planet, rebel base in a jungle, grey spacestation of doom, etc), but in a washed out color palette with a lot of color correction effects plastered over the screen and lots of conspicuous 3D CGI. It doesn't have the charm of the George Lucas movies.


If we're comparing turds, then TLJ is preferable to TFA. At least TLJ has some aesthetic originality, with Luke's island, the comic book esque scene of the hyperspeed ramming, the desert with the red dust, etc. TLJ's plot of a rebel fleet being chased and running out of gas is more novel than TFA's lesser rehash of ANH's plot. TRoS is probably the most enjoyable of the disney movies due to the sheer absurdity.
 
Rey is a trouser character.
To be fair, her introduction is excellent. It shows her day to day life and a lot about her character with minimal dialog and a lot of quite good visual storytelling.

Everything after that... not great.
If we're comparing turds, then TLJ is preferable to TFA.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

Gonna have to agree to disagree there.

Neither are good but TLJ is where star wars began to die.
 
this. I don't read a lot of modern horror because "Too bleak didn't read." even in the bleakest of worlds we want a reason to root for someone and we want them to win.

Which is funny, as even Lovecraft allowed for bright spots in his stories. In a cold and uncaring universe, you still have the US military handing fishmen their asses, Stargods getting KO'd by steamships, a vampire-werewolf-giant thing getting dissolved by acid, and the Antichrist/Evil Space Jesus getting more or less crucified by a gaggle of university professors. It is surprising really, or perhaps unsurprising as Lovecraft actually knew how to write a good story.
 
Which is funny, as even Lovecraft allowed for bright spots in his stories. In a cold and uncaring universe, you still have the US military handing fishmen their asses, Stargods getting KO'd by steamships, a vampire-werewolf-giant thing getting dissolved by acid, and the Antichrist/Evil Space Jesus getting more or less crucified by a gaggle of university professors. It is surprising really, or perhaps unsurprising as Lovecraft actually knew how to write a good story.
Wasn’t it that Lovecraft acknowledged Conan the Barbarian of all things as existing within his universe? You know, the world in which mankind saw the eldritch horrors, grunted, then threw progressively larger rocks at them until they fucked off.
 
Wasn’t it that Lovecraft acknowledged Conan the Barbarian of all things as existing within his universe? You know, the world in which mankind saw the eldritch horrors, grunted, then threw progressively larger rocks at them until they fucked off.

Howard and Lovecraft did indeed make each other's stories canon to each other. So, the times humanity wins in Lovecraft's works would then be part of a greater pattern of throwing rocks.
 
If we're comparing turds, then TLJ is preferable to TFA. At least TLJ has some aesthetic originality, with Luke's island, the comic book esque scene of the hyperspeed ramming, the desert with the red dust, etc. TLJ's plot of a rebel fleet being chased and running out of gas is more novel than TFA's lesser rehash of ANH's plot. TRoS is probably the most enjoyable of the disney movies due to the sheer absurdity.
Rian Johnson is a better director, skill-wise, than J. J. Abrams, but the fact that TLJ was made as a 'subversion'(and by that I mean it's a big 'F U' to a really big part of the fandom) only means it's a well-polished turd - it's far more insidious than the bland(at best) TFA.

As for TRoS, it looked to me like a sequence of poorly put-up together action scenes, undoubtedly because they had to squeeze an undoing of TLJ and a conclusion of the story into something that took less than three hours(and even three hours would be too little time for that)..
 
That people don't like 'serious' Star Wars like Andor is rather revealing, in that people don't want the stories of the average person in SW or their lives, all they want are the Jedi and Sith fights and Force fuckery and black and white morality to escape from the real world's grey areas.

I want both.
 
I want both.
Which is great, because Star Wars needs both type of stories.

However, according to some, anything that doesn't pain the SW universe as black and white fights, and introduces any sort of real world, serious, adult complexities to the story or franchise is just a bad fanfic at best.
 

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