Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Surely not this? ;)

The old EU had loads of great stuff, but quite a few duds as well.

I certainly didn't care for Denning's books, so to me, SW chronologically ends with The Unifying Force. (And Vision of the Future is a great ending point if one doesn't like the Vong.)

Whatever Disney churns out is just fanfiction. Some of it is even good, or at least okay, but I can't bring myself to get excited about it anymore. And that says something, because -- as the above indicates -- I happen to believe that the post-trilogy era of SW had gone pretty much down the drain by 2012. So when they announced they were making sequels, I was willing to give them every chance to do something cool.

They didn't. And as far as the rest of the EU goes: they trashed a lot of cool stuff, replaced with way less interesting stuff, and are now trying to cram loads of stuff from the old EU right back in. But it lacks all context and is therefore pretty uninteresting.


I still standby the idea that even with the last Jedi the ST never got to the low low points the EU did. At least Disney canon didn't do the equivalent of Darth maul killing Ashoka Tano and besting GRANDMASTER Luke Skywalker in combat. Did I mention that this unknown Sith character we've never heard about was actually behind Palpatine killing plaugus, Anakin turning to the dark side AND Luke making the shot that blew up the Death Star? (Why yes I am very salty about the Revan novel how did you notice?)

Also the less said about the Crystal Star the better.

difference between the EU and disney though is that with the EU the sheer amount of Star Wars content allowed people to sort of headcanon things they enjoyed while memory holeing and ignoring the stories they did not like. Disney though only allows for a couple of major projects at a time and seem to insist on everything tying back to either the ST or the High Republic so even if you try to ignore them, they beat you over the head to ensure that you can't.

I'm thankful I grew up in a generation where “The canon is more what you’d call ‘guidelines’ than actual rules.”
 
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Crystal Star was the Empire pulling a being out of Otherspace, and partnering/experimenting on it.

Waru was closer to a 40k deamon than anything previously seen in Star Wars, and not seen again to Abeloth.

What Abeloth did to Courscant is nightmarish; makes Bonadan look benign and pleasant. Magma wells in the lower levels....there is not a scale to measure the NOPE of that, particularly on top of the irreversible Vong forming/orbital shift.
 
Crystal Star was the Empire pulling a being out of Otherspace, and partnering/experimenting on it.

Waru was closer to a 40k deamon than anything previously seen in Star Wars, and not seen again to Abeloth.

What Abeloth did to Courscant is nightmarish; makes Bonadan look benign and pleasant. Magma wells in the lower levels....there is not a scale to measure the NOPE of that, particularly on top of the irreversible Vong forming/orbital shift.

Abeloth was honestly the moment I felt that the EU was jumping the shark and running out of ideas. Course I wasn't exactly a fan of the Mortis arc. about the only good things it did was show how OP Anakin and Ahsoka were.
 
In conversation, @Earl and I were discussing the bit in the prequels where the Jedi just leave Shmi Skywalker in slavery on Tatooine. It really makes very little sense, and they Jedi come across as needlessly callous about a person's life. (In-universe excuses about slavery just being legal on Tatooine don't affect the impression the average audience member gets.)

Narratively, it's just a way for Lucas to get Anakin's 'start of darkness' underway in Episode II, but it's poorly handled. Really just a case of Lucas being pretty clumsy about plotting "the human element". He really gets themes and narrative arcs, but the details often end up contrived and stilted.

So, if I got brought in to help re-write Episode II, how would I handle this? Well, here's a suggestion:


Generally speaking, I'd keep the Trade Federation (adding the Banking Clan et cetera) as the villains to start with, instead of inventing a new villain faction. And I'd have them be the ones who secretly bred a private army of clones. With their army, they start "liberating" the Outer Rim, which involves attacking Tatooine. This is explicitly portrayed as their last-ditch effort to keep their enormous power, now that the great reformer Palpatine is finally taking action to crush the evil corporations.

(This effectively combines Lucas's criticism of mega-corps with the whole allegory of the slave states seceding. That, too, was a last-ditch move sparked by panic about the slavocratic elite losing their power.)

Meanwhile, the Jedi would simply have paid for Shmi to be freed, making them less of a bunch of dicks. Anakin wanted her moved to Coruscant, too, but the Jedi were (somewhat reasonably, given "no attachments") against that. So Shmi married Cliegg Lars and stayed on Tatooine. Anakin misses her (and his emotional dependence on 'approving parental figures' is already a bit worrying), but otherwise, he seems okay with it.

Then the clones invade, and Tatooine is attacked. Anakin rushes off to save her, despite the Jedi wanting a calm and deliberate strategy. (We may assume he was sent to guard Padmé, and that she -- having met Shmi, too -- supports him.) Meeting up with Lars, Anakin finds out his mother is among the enslaved prisoners, but he is too late to save her. The slaves have been abused brutally, and many have died, Shmi among them.

Anakin goes berserk, and butchers the enemy command... even after they surrender, and have broadcast that surrender to the galaxy at large.

Anakin's 'start of darkness' makes more sense now. Also, his victims are pure assholes who definitely deserve it... but his obvious war crime creates enormous outrage, and causes many already-disaffected Rim systems to secede from the Republic. And now the corporate instigators of the whole conflict form the CIS. Anakin has personally caused the Clone Wars to escalate beyond belief. He's done exactly what the Jedi wanted to avoid. Functionally, he's given the enemy leaders exactly what they wanted. An excuse to really split off from the Republic.

He's not thrown out of the Order only because the Core citizens see him as a Great Big Hero who gave the filthy slavers what they deserved. Patriotism abounds on Coruscant. Palpatine elevates Anakin's rank, giving him a military command. But from this moment on, the Jedi no longer trust him, nor does he trust them. To the Jedi Masters, he is an unstable loose cannon with severe emotional issues. To Anakin, the Jedi's failure to act at once (as he wanted) is what killed his mother.

Obi-Wan tries to mediate, but we can see it's in vain. He tries to talk to Padmé, who is genuinely shocked by what Anakin did, but just then, the news comes in that the newly-formed CIS has bombed Naboo from orbit. Padmé's whole family is dead by their hands, too. She leaves a despairing Obi-Wan behind.

Later, in the Senate, Padmé delivers a rousing speech on behalf of Naboo, where she leads the charge in extending emergency powers to Palpatine (who is also a son of this victimised world). Flanked by Anakin and Padmé, the Chancellor promises to restore order and justice to the galaxy; and not to rest until the traitors have been vanquished.

As his address ends, we close in on Anakin and Padmé, their fingers entwined in reassurance and affection. (Because rushing right to marriage is silly.)
 
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Anakin's 'start of darkness' makes more sense now. Also, his victims are pure assholes who definitely deserve it... but his obvious war crime creates enormous outrage, and causes many already-disaffected Rim systems to secede from the Republic. And now the corporate instigators of the whole conflict form the CIS. Anakin has personally caused the Clone Wars to escalate beyond belief. He's done exactly what the Jedi wanted to avoid. Functionally, he's given the enemy leaders exactly what they wanted. An excuse to really split off from the Republic.

He probably had plenty coming after him canonically, but I can certainly imagine him being a No. 1 target of Confederate-sponsored assassination attempts here.

I also highly doubt Anakin will be allowed to train a Padawan, given the terrible example he set for the entire Galaxy to see. So, unless Obi-Wan's willing to take on a second apprentice, then bye-bye, Ahsoka Tano.
 
He probably had plenty coming after him canonically, but I can certainly imagine him being a No. 1 target of Confederate-sponsored assassination attempts here.

I also highly doubt Anakin will be allowed to train a Padawan, given the terrible example he set for the entire Galaxy to see. So, unless Obi-Wan's willing to take on a second apprentice, then bye-bye, Ahsoka Tano.


true but remember part of the reason for the existence of TCW and Ashoka was because Anakin's turn was clunky and clumsy in the films, it was to the point of being nonsensical. (Again, force heal was more than established in the greater Star Wars community by the time ROTS came around) had his turn been better handled in the first place, there wouldn't really be a need for an Ahsoka. Plus keep in mind she didn't start out as the fan favorite, she became. In fact, most of us thought she was a silly addition to the story that "Obviously" couldn't play a significant part of the story (little did we know Fioni would say challenge accepted. It was the long-term arc and good chemistry that she and Anakin had that won us over.
 
true but remember part of the reason for the existence of TCW and Ashoka was because Anakin's turn was clunky and clumsy in the films, it was to the point of being nonsensical. (Again, force heal was more than established in the greater Star Wars community by the time ROTS came around) had his turn been better handled in the first place, there wouldn't really be a need for an Ahsoka. Plus keep in mind she didn't start out as the fan favorite, she became. In fact, most of us thought she was a silly addition to the story that "Obviously" couldn't play a significant part of the story (little did we know Fioni would say challenge accepted. It was the long-term arc and good chemistry that she and Anakin had that won us over.

Okay, fine. How does that contradict anything I said?

If we were to implement @Skallagrim's idea to make Anakin's fall more sensible, then it'd butterfly (or reduce) the need for further exposition, which is what we got with Ahsoka Tano and The Clone Wars in general.

Besides, Anakin's massacre provides a decent "in-universe" justification for why the Council will assuredly bar him from having an apprentice, even if they don't expel (or demote) him. The logical consequence, of course, is Anakin never becoming a Jedi Master only fueling his distrust, resentment, and the ease with which a cackling Palpatine manipulates him and, eventually, turns him on the Order that "ignored" and "mistreated" him for far too long.
 
Starkiller Base is the worst part of the Sequel Trilogy.

And I don't just say that because it's the first obvious major problem and the thing that turned me off the Sequel Trilogy.

Compare the Death Star to Starkiller Base, the first we hear of the Death Star it's Darth Vader having just killed a bunch of people over plans to the thing, the first we hear of Starkiller Base it's Han with a plan to infiltrate the place. Half of Episode IV is just dealing with the PLANS for the thing and when we finally blow it up it's the climax of the whole thing and the culmination of a bunch of people's work that we actually SEE.

The Death Star's fatal weakness is a single shaft, a near impossible shot, a critical weakness mandated by the reactor design and mitigated as best as possible. Starkiller Base's fatal weakness is, in no particular order, a centralized generator that has no reason to be centralized, insufficient sensor coverage, no Interdictor Fields, and apparently being waaaaay too obvious(how does Han find it? No idea).

Starkiller Base is a pile of idiot balls that is introduced clumsily, handled entirely in the background, has no impact on our heroes, and completely fails to be a stand in for the Death Star.

No seriously, compare the one shot the Death Star got off vs the one shot Starkiller Base got off, the Death Star blows up a main character's home planet in front of them, massive emotional damage to a main character so we have a reason to care about destruction too large for humans to really grasp, Starkiller Base blows up a bunch of planets, I have no idea which, none of the main characters give a shit about any of them, it's pure spectacle and has less emotional impact than a fireworks display.

Compare the death of the Death Star to the death of Starkiller Base, one get's blown up after a hard fought battle to get the one guy who has a chance to make the shot into precisely the position to do so, every supporting character has put in on screen effort to get to this point, and Luke's Force Assisted Perfect Shot hits the audience in the feels as surely as it hit the Death Star. Starkiller Base get's blown up because characters have been planting satchel charges in the background of dealing with Kylo.(and btw, how fucking pathetic is Kylo that characters have the spare attention to do anything but not die, he is so blatantly "Shitty Vader Knock Off" it's not even funny, which just makes Luke's reaction to his "spark of darkness" all the more ridiculous)

The Death Star gets off its one shot while it's still invulnerable, while the audience is still unsure if it'll actually be destroyed, it's a demonstration of power absolute. Starkiller Base gets off its one shot after it's already been infiltrated and a bunch of the fatal satchel charges have been planted, it's the last gasp of a failed power play.(that the First Order still somehow takes over the Galaxy really begs the question of why they ever made it)

The destruction of the Death Star is a major turning point in the war, and it's treated like it by the story, Starkiller Base is a footnote and its treated like it by the story. But both are also absolutely central to their movie.

The Death Star is a character, Starkiller Base is scenery.

EDIT: just in case anyone is wondering why I'm back to ranting about the Sequel Trilogy, I was just in the Dentist for temp crowns so I blame local anesthetic)
 

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