Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[DarthOne]

For me it's the Rattenkriege, German for Rat Wars.
Cause its made by the Rat.

... maybe it just me, but ‘Rattenkreig’ actually sounds too cool of a name to be worthy of Disney Wars.

I find 'Skaven' to be useful shorthand for 'Devil Mouse' aka 'Disney'.

I suppose, but it’s confusing to the lay person.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I suppose, but it’s confusing to the lay person.

Is it though? How many people are there that A) Care about Star Wars and B) Don't know that Skaven are evil subterranean mutant rats?

And C) Maybe obscuring my meaning from those who match A and B is part of the utility.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

I just realized something: even without superweapons, any Legends faction worth the name would simply stomp. Why? Because the difference in scale when it comes to naval artillery is like the distance between Heaven and Earth. Canon naval artillery is just plain unimpressive, as seen in Rebels and how in TLJ they needed to bring a specialized planet-bombardment vessel to raze the Resistance base.

Contrast that to Legends starships, with even those built and operating in the 3000s BBY having simply overwhelming naval firepower. For instance, here's Darth Malak's destruction of Taris.



Note that Darth Malak's flagship is by no means a specialized vessel, but just your standard Interdictor Class Cruiser for his breakaway Sith Empire. It should also be noted that a refitted variant of that same class also serves in the mainstream Sith Empire's fleet, with one such ship, the Tears of Taris, flagship of Darth Charnus, actually being a veteran of both the Jedi Civil War and the First Jedi Purge.

In short: even a relatively-outdated cruiser of the Sith Imperial Navy outguns the best ships of canon. How much their top-of-the-line vessels, like the Harrower or the Terminus?

 

[DarthOne]

Is it though? How many people are there that A) Care about Star Wars and B) Don't know that Skaven are evil subterranean mutant rats?

And C) Maybe obscuring my meaning from those who match A and B is part of the utility.

I did consider that. And I think you overestimate the number of people out there who both care about Star Wars and are familiar enough with Warhammer Fantasy or willing to look up what the Skaven are. Also, while it might work half-well in some areas of the internet, outside of it, people will just dismiss you and your positions if they hear you refer to Disney Wars in such an obscure way.

In short: even a relatively-outdated cruiser of the Sith Imperial Navy outguns the best ships of canon. How much their top-of-the-line vessels, like the Harrower or the Terminus?

Probably hard. But then, where is the satisfaction of effortlessly curbstomping your opponent via a story? Giving them some sort of fighting chance is much more interesting to write and read. It simply makes for better story telling.

A true ideological victory is to make your enemy (or in this case, Disney fans) realize that they were wrong in the first place. By exploring via a story what makes their position incorrect is much more likely to get results. Certainly more then just dropping a favorite faction into Disney Wars and having them curbstomp everything in their path. Any hack writer can do that and fansites across the internet are filled with such dreck.

Besides, it's the sort of thing that the Disney fanbois and gurls would sink to; and while there is a time and a place to sink to that sort of level, this is not it.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

You know, having seen some First Order related clips from Rise of Skywalker, something strikes me as odd. In one respect, the First Order are not behaving like an Imperial remnant. News of Palpatine being alive should be met with jubilation instead of cynicism. General Pryde, or someone like him, with tears of joy, never announces "our Emperor lives" to the wider Order, which is something you'd think would happen.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

You know, having seen some First Order related clips from Rise of Skywalker, something strikes me as odd. In one respect, the First Order are not behaving like an Imperial remnant. News of Palpatine being alive should be met with jubilation instead of cynicism. General Pryde, or someone like him, with tears of joy, never announces "our Emperor lives" to the wider Order, which is something you'd think would happen.

You expect the "creators" of that movie to portray their villains as internally consistent. They can't do that. They simply can't. To them, villains are bundles of hypocrisy and lies, with no redeeming features whatsoever.

 

[Skallagrim]

You expect the "creators" of that movie to portray their villains as internally consistent. They can't do that. They simply can't. To them, villains are bundles of hypocrisy and lies, with no redeeming features whatsoever.

Even that consideration is beyond them. Yeah, they figured "cool villains = bad" because "we might be accused of glorifying white supremacy" (or whatever). Hysterical nonsense informed by loonies. But whatever. The point is: they've never had a single coherent thought beyond that. Abrams never knew what that First Order even was, and Johnson didn't care. They just write shit based on what their plot demands at any given time.

It's not that these people think that villains are bundles of hypocrisy and lies, with no redeeming features whatsoever.

It's that these people are, themselves, bundles of hypocrisy and lies, with no redeeming features whatsoever.

 

[Navarro]

You know, having seen some First Order related clips from Rise of Skywalker, something strikes me as odd. In one respect, the First Order are not behaving like an Imperial remnant. News of Palpatine being alive should be met with jubilation instead of cynicism. General Pryde, or someone like him, with tears of joy, never announces "our Emperor lives" to the wider Order, which is something you'd think would happen.

It's not like the Resistance or anybody else seems to really care either, so lol.

"Somehow, Palpatine returned", anyone?

EDIT: Or even the filmmakers, considering that they relegated the actual return to a Fortnite special event.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

I've always thought that the rebellion was to united and nice.

A rebel movement in something as large as a galaxy should have a ton of competing groups in it, united only by their hatred of the Empire. Some honorable and some little more than terrorists.

The name of the rebellion says it all, The Alliance to Restore the Republic. But there are plenty of groups that while opposed to Palpatine also have no desire to bring back the Republic.

Though I seriously doubt I'll ever have time to write it, I've had the idea of a story where a darksider character launches their own rebellion against the Empire to try to create an independent darkside aligned state in his area of space.

The character would spend almost as much time fighting with the other rebels as with the Empire, and even at the best of times have very frosty relations with them and especially any Jedi working with them.

The point of the story would be show messy and diverse a galaxy wide rebellion would be. There should be groups that want a unified galactic state, others who want their own independent states, all sorts of different darksiders and lightsiders of different stripes, alien supremacists, human supremacists, republicans, autocrats and so on.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Probably hard. But then, where is the satisfaction of effortlessly curbstomping your opponent via a story? Giving them some sort of fighting chance is much more interesting to write and read. It simply makes for better story telling.

A true ideological victory is to make your enemy (or in this case, Disney fans) realize that they were wrong in the first place. By exploring via a story what makes their position incorrect is much more likely to get results. Certainly more then just dropping a favorite faction into Disney Wars and having them curbstomp everything in their path. Any hack writer can do that and fansites across the internet are filled with such dreck.

Besides, it's the sort of thing that the Disney fanbois and gurls would sink to; and while there is a time and a place to sink to that sort of level, this is not it.

Oh that's easily done by dropping the Sith Empire into canon. Because it means when the Resistance infiltrates the Seat of the Empire, i.e. the Imperial Heartland in the Galactic Northeast, they'll find themselves slamming into the same revelation that stunned both the Republic and the Jedi Order.

Specifically, the common people of the Sith Empire don't see themselves as oppressed, and genuinely believe in the same ideal of Rule of the Strong as the Sith themselves. That, and the Sith themselves do have a genuine interest in an orderly and stable nation, as shown by the fact that one of the seats on the Dark Council is that of the Master of Laws and Justice.

 

[prinCZess]

A rebel movement in something as large as a galaxy should have a ton of competing groups in it, united only by their hatred of the Empire. Some honorable and some little more than terrorists.

For its failures, this is one thing that Rogue One at least had the decency to edge up to and imply with...protagonist hearthrob assassin-man and the quiet 'Kill 'em all' mentality and orders he got independent of the actual 'face' of the rebellion.
How well it actually did that is probably evidenced by my lack of remembering the character's name--and plenty of opportunity missed in the conference-room scene where more divisions and fracture-lines within the Rebellion could have easily been highlighted...But at least there was an attempt?

Of course, part of that might be lingering over-correction for how Lucas portrayal of 'political intrigue' in the prequel trilogy went and the movies being action-oriented and time-limited (Clone Wars got into some degree of political stuff with the CIS, didn't it? I recall that being pretty present).
Kind of sad, really. Politics was one of the things I thought Ep. 1-3 did right (or...again, at least there was an attempt, and it makes for a different 'threat' than the originals (and sequels) 'evil empire must be stopped by plucky band of underdog heroes'.

 

[Laskar]

Hey! Hey!

I hate to interrupt the ongoing discussion about the merits of the sequels and how the Mouse could have done it better, but good news!
Someone found an original 16mm print of the original Star Wars, before it was Episode IV. Before it was updated. Back when Han shot first.
Someone found that original 16mm print and uploaded it to the internet! You can find it here!

 

[DarthOne]

I've always thought that the rebellion was to united and nice.

A rebel movement in something as large as a galaxy should have a ton of competing groups in it, united only by their hatred of the Empire. Some honorable and some little more than terrorists.

The name of the rebellion says it all, The Alliance to Restore the Republic. But there are plenty of groups that while opposed to Palpatine also have no desire to bring back the Republic.

Though I seriously doubt I'll ever have time to write it, I've had the idea of a story where a darksider character launches their own rebellion against the Empire to try to create an independent darkside aligned state in his area of space.

The character would spend almost as much time fighting with the other rebels as with the Empire, and even at the best of times have very frosty relations with them and especially any Jedi working with them.

The point of the story would be show messy and diverse a galaxy wide rebellion would be. There should be groups that want a unified galactic state, others who want their own independent states, all sorts of different darksiders and lightsiders of different stripes, alien supremacists, human supremacists, republicans, autocrats and so on.

While I wouldn't use a dark sider if I was writing it, I do fully agree that the idea of just how loosely allied at least parts of the Rebel Alliance actually was and how they had their own agendas that didn't involve a New Galatic Republic is certainly an interesting idea that should have been explored more.

Then again, as I've gotten older, I've wanted more and more for there to be more factions post-Empire than just the New Republic, an Imperial Remnant or two and some minor yahoos. I really do think SW would have had much more in the way of opportunity for stories that way.

Oh that's easily done by dropping the Sith Empire into canon. Because it means when the Resistance infiltrates the Seat of the Empire, i.e. the Imperial Heartland in the Galactic Northeast, they'll find themselves slamming into the same revelation that stunned both the Republic and the Jedi Order.

Specifically, the common people of the Sith Empire don't see themselves as oppressed, and genuinely believe in the same ideal of Rule of the Strong as the Sith themselves. That, and the Sith themselves do have a genuine interest in an orderly and stable nation, as shown by the fact that one of the seats on the Dark Council is that of the Master of Laws and Justice.

I'd do a bit more than just that. Not entirely sure what mind you, as I haven't put much thought towards Disney Canon besides a one-shot idea where some of the oh-so-scawy Nihil from the High Republic find themselves running into the unyielding brick wall of emotionless cold logic that is the Cybermen....

Hey! Hey!

I hate to interrupt the ongoing discussion about the merits of the sequels and how the Mouse could have done it better, but good news!
Someone found an original 16mm print of the original Star Wars, before it was Episode IV. Before it was updated. Back when Han shot first.
Someone found that original 16mm print and uploaded it to the internet! You can find it here!

DAMN, that is a nice find!

 

[ShadowArxxy]

While I wouldn't use a dark sider if I was writing it, I do fully agree that the idea of just how loosely allied at least parts of the Rebel Alliance actually was and how they had their own agendas that didn't involve a New Galatic Republic is certainly an interesting idea that should have been explored more.

*nods in agreement*

That's my big continuing criticism of the Legends/EU -- for all that Force Awakens got dissed for basically being "A New New Hope", a huge portion of the EU material effectively ignores the fact that the New Republic was the New Republic, and wrote stories that were basically constant repeats of the small band of protagonist heroes saving the day *as if they were a Rebel Alliance cell with no access to larger-scale resources*.

There weren't really any stories that ever looked at any depth into the transition from the Alliance to the Republic; even Zahn, hands down the best Star Wars author of all time, timeskipped ahead to a point where the Republic was an established power, with the tacit plot hole that the NR was supposedly now a larger faction that controlled more territory than any individual Imperial warlord and was perceived as a legitimate government by pretty much everyone other than Imperial hardliners. . . yet the same NR was never able to match even "minor" warlords on a fleet-on-fleet basis, with even Teradoc's handful of old Victory-class Star Destroyers running rampant with the NR literally not being able to muster any response beyond a handful of starfighters and small fry.

As for internal strife within the loose coalition of the Alliance, that gets glossed over even more in the transition to the NR. The most we see of it in the EU was the whole Mothma vs. Bel Iblis thing, only the resolution of that was pretty much a nonsensical ass-pull.

 

[AspblastUSA]

Specifically, the common people of the Sith Empire don't see themselves as oppressed, and genuinely believe in the same ideal of Rule of the Strong as the Sith themselves. That, and the Sith themselves do have a genuine interest in an orderly and stable nation, as shown by the fact that one of the seats on the Dark Council is that of the Master of Laws and Justice.

Honestly I think that aspect would be more interesting to explore in the prequel era. While the oppressiveness of the Disney Empire was turned up to the point that its remarkable it lasted as long as it did there was at least a period there at the beginning where the citizens of the GFFA genuinely supported the new order. That combined with the fact that all institutional knowledge of the Sith was destroyed with the Jedi means that the NR/Resistance only has vague ideas about Sith==bad and won’t know to be shocked.

The prequel era on the other hand is the Jedi and the Republic at the height of their complacency, and thousands of years distant from any Sith Empire that could be properly traced back to the original Sith culture. They’ve probably forgotten Sith could be reasonable as the well known parts of history deal with the marauding band of psychos that was the Brotherhood of Darkness. They know enough to be shocked.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Honestly I think that aspect would be more interesting to explore in the prequel era. While the oppressiveness of the Disney Empire was turned up to the point that its remarkable it lasted as long as it did there was at least a period there at the beginning where the citizens of the GFFA genuinely supported the new order. That combined with the fact that all institutional knowledge of the Sith was destroyed with the Jedi means that the NR/Resistance only has vague ideas about Sith==bad and won’t know to be shocked.

It appears that the oppressiveness of the Empire varied a *lot* from place to place, especially in the Outer Rim where the rise of the Empire did actually produce a significant improvement in law and order from the Old Republic.

Keep in mind that up until they murdered his family, Luke Skywalker planned to join the Imperial Academy just like his friend Biggs had, and although Biggs had canonically deserted to the Rebellion by the time of ANH, there's EU material (an actually very good mini-series comic) that shows he was a sincerely loyal Imperial officer up until the point where he was ordered to commit atrocities.

 

[DarthOne]

Hey! Hey!

I hate to interrupt the ongoing discussion about the merits of the sequels and how the Mouse could have done it better, but good news!
Someone found an original 16mm print of the original Star Wars, before it was Episode IV. Before it was updated. Back when Han shot first.
Someone found that original 16mm print and uploaded it to the internet! You can find it here!

ATTENTION!

He also has the Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi up as well!






Like A New Hope, it can be downloaded for free by going over to 'download options' clicking 'show all files' selecting the MP4 version; then when it opens in a new tab, right-clicking on the video and saving it to your PC!

 

[AspblastUSA]

It appears that the oppressiveness of the Empire varied a *lot* from place to place, especially in the Outer Rim where the rise of the Empire did actually produce a significant improvement in law and order from the Old Republic.

Keep in mind that up until they murdered his family, Luke Skywalker planned to join the Imperial Academy just like his friend Biggs had, and although Biggs had canonically deserted to the Rebellion by the time of ANH, there's EU material (an actually very good mini-series comic) that shows he was a sincerely loyal Imperial officer up until the point where he was ordered to commit atrocities.

Oh I know that the Empire were much more nuanced villains in the EU and that plenty of the Galaxy saw them as tolerable if not an outright good. That's why I prefaced it with the Disney continuity because really, has there been anywhere shown since the buyout that actually benefitted from Imperial rule? In nu-Canon they appear to be going full jackboots 100% of the time everywhere, which raises the question of where their endless legion of Stormtroopers and ships actually come from...

 

[Yinko]

Hey! Hey!

I hate to interrupt the ongoing discussion about the merits of the sequels and how the Mouse could have done it better, but good news!
Someone found an original 16mm print of the original Star Wars, before it was Episode IV. Before it was updated. Back when Han shot first.
Someone found that original 16mm print and uploaded it to the internet! You can find it here!

When I was a kid my uncle had the originals (this was early 90's, before the 97 edit). At the time I never cared much.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Oh I know that the Empire were much more nuanced villains in the EU and that plenty of the Galaxy saw them as tolerable if not an outright good. That's why I prefaced it with the Disney continuity because really, has there been anywhere shown since the buyout that actually benefitted from Imperial rule? In nu-Canon they appear to be going full jackboots 100% of the time everywhere, which raises the question of where their endless legion of Stormtroopers and ships actually come from...

I'm not sure I agree with this portrayal; the EU *did* show them going full jackboots almost everywhere we *actually had stories*, with the more law and order aspect appearing mostly to create sympathetic backstories for Rebels who had an Imperial deserter background.