Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Lord Sovereign]

Yup. And the problem with that is simple: adventure films like these require an impressive opponent. A weak villain hurts the story. It kills the stakes. It eliminates the audience's respect for both the villain and the hero. If the villains are unimpressive, then how can they ever be a credible threat? And if we're told they're a threat anyway, then how come the heroes haven't dealt with them yet? Surely, if the villains are as useless as they are shown to be, defeating them cannot be so hard? And yet, the heroes struggle and incur major losses. The implication becomes that the good guys must be even worse losers than the villains. Otherwise, they'd have won by now.

Worst part is, they actually had a decent set up for the First Order in that regard. The core idea (that got promptly forgotten) was that the Order had learned from the Empire's mistakes (command bridges more built into their ships and thus better protected, larger hangar bays for more durable fighters, better equipped and trained troops, etc) and was operating from a position of weakness against the New Republic.

They're essentially a diminished Empire gone full fascist mode, with an emphasis on quality over quantity with a fanatical officer corps. That could have worked very well indeed, especially if the "order" of the First Order got contrasted with the still chaotic and recovering Republic.

They even had a pretty badass theme that never got used.

 

[DarthOne]

Worst part is, they actually had a decent set up for the First Order in that regard. The core idea (that got promptly forgotten) was that the Order had learned from the Empire's mistakes (command bridges more built into their ships and thus better protected, larger hangar bays for more durable fighters, better equipped and trained troops, etc) and was operating from a position of weakness against the New Republic.

They're essentially a diminished Empire gone full fascist mode, with an emphasis on quality over quantity with a fanatical officer corps. That could have worked very well indeed, especially if the "order" of the First Order got contrasted with the still chaotic and recovering Republic.

They even had a pretty badass theme that never got used.

Exactly this. Say what you like about the rest of the Disney trilogy, but the basic IDEA of the First Order, an Imperial Remnant that has gone Full Fascist Mode and learned from its mistakes in order to continue its war with the Rebel Alliance/New Republic is a good one.

If I might throw in my own two cents, I would have also drawn on some Soviet/Communist aspects too when it comes to their uniforms and organization. Both to help distance the FO from the Empire more and to rustle the jimmies of the various tankies and twitter commies a little.

I would have ditched Starkiller base in favor of something like the Legends Sovereign style Super dreadnaught(s) with a mini-superlaser. That said, these would be the FO's equivalent of the IJN's Yamato class ships (with much of the same idea behind them- like Imperial Japan, the First Order can't compete with the New Republic by building equal numbers of ships) and not their standard vessels, with limits of how many of these superships the First Order can make. Be it for logistical reasons, or the fact that mini-superlaser is somehow derived from Old Sith Dark Side tech, which the First Order has recovered in the unknown regions or something, but cannot reproduce on their own.

Plus, this way we can have some real full-scale fleet battles between warships instead of just fighter battles. And I would make it absolutely sure that it's clear just how many guns the big ships have. Something that the likes of Rogue One failed to do. For extra fun, have a LOT of anti-fighter weapons on FO ships so that fighters have a much harder time attacking them; actually SHOWING in a story-relevant way how the FO has learned from the Empire.

That and I would have done more to move away from the 'classic' Imperial tech designs to make the current vessels feel more like an evolution of the setting; similar to how we saw ships in the prequel era that were clearly predecessors of the Original Trilogy Era ships.

I wouldn't mind the idea of the New Republic still using ships that are more reminiscent of the OT era; as it would be a great way to show how the New Republic has rested on its laurels, without making them go Full Retard and undermining the events of the OT era like the Disney Trilogy did.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

I would have ditched Starkiller base in favor of something like the Legends Sovereign style Super dreadnaught(s) with a mini-superlaser. That said, these would be the FO's equivalent of the IJN's Yamato class ships (with much of the same idea behind them- they can't compete with the New Republic with equal numbers) and not their standard vessels, with limits of how many of these superships the First Order can make. Be it for logistical reasons, or the fact that mini-superlaser is somehow derived from Old Sith Dark Side tech, which the First Order has recovered in the unknown regions or something, but cannot reproduce on their own.

Starkiller Base could, instead, have been a Rakatan Star Forge that has been semi-jury rigged to be a super laser (because come on, the First Order are the heirs of the Empire. They love them big guns). It could also explain how the First Order are able to build "the good shit." Granted, this one should be in a relatively bad state so it can't mass produce the good shit like another Star Forge could in Kotor, but it is an invaluable part of the Order's industry.

 

[DarthOne]

Starkiller Base could, instead, have been a Rakatan Star Forge that has been semi-jury rigged to be a super laser (because come on, the First Order are the heirs of the Empire. They love them big guns). It could also explain how the First Order are able to build "the good shit." Granted, this one should be in a relatively bad state so it can't mass produce the good shit like another Star Forge could in Kotor, but it is an invaluable part of the Order's industry.

Ehhhhh, I think it'd go with it being a manufacturing-only that would be the climax of the third film or whatever. And maybe have it be an old Sith Empire knock-off or something instead of bringing in the Rakatara.

Besides, we already had two movies with gigantic spacestations with huge superweapons. It's been done already; move on.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Exactly this. Say what you like about the rest of the Sequel trilogy, but the basic IDEA of the First Order, an Imperial Remnant that has gone Full Fascist Mode and learned from its mistakes in order to continue its war with the Rebel Alliance/New Republic is a good one.

If I might throw in my own two cents, I would have also drawn on some Soviet/Communist aspects too when it comes to their uniforms and organization. Both to help distance the FO from the Empire more and to rustle the jimmies of the various tankies and twitter commies a little.

I would have ditched Starkiller base in favor of something like the Legends Sovereign style Super dreadnaught(s) with a mini-superlaser. That said, these would be the FO's equivalent of the IJN's Yamato class ships (with much of the same idea behind them- they can't compete with the New Republic with equal numbers) and not their standard vessels, with limits of how many of these superships the First Order can make. Be it for logistical reasons, or the fact that mini-superlaser is somehow derived from Old Sith Dark Side tech, which the First Order has recovered in the unknown regions or something, but cannot reproduce on their own.

Plus, this way we can have some real full-scale fleet battles between warships instead of just fighter battles. And I would make it absolutely sure that it's clear just how many guns the big ships have. Something that the likes of Rogue One failed to do. For extra fun, have a LOT of anti-fighter weapons on FO ships so that fighters have a much harder time attacking them; actually SHOWING in a story-relevant way how the FO has learned from the Empire.

That and I would have done more to move away from the 'classic' Imperial tech designs to make the current vessels feel more like an evolution of the setting; similar to how we saw ships in the prequel era that were clearly predecessors of the Original Trilogy Era ships.

I wouldn't mind the idea of the New Republic still using ships that are more reminiscent of the OT era; as it would be a great way to show how the New Republic has rested on its laurels, without making them go Full Retard and undermining the events of the OT era like the Disney Trilogy did.

So basically, an improved version of the Silencer, a Sith Empire superweapon from SWTOR.

Silencer (superweapon)

The Silencer was a superweapon consisting of a rapidly recharging megalaser that could be mounted on a capital ship. This laser was called a "fleet killer" because it had both the power and the speed of fire to destroy several capital ships in rapid succession. Because of this, it was considered...

starwars.fandom.com

Rapid recharge "fleet killer" megalaser that was both deadly and inexpensive compared to a Death Star.
A whole fleet of them concentrating their lasers on one point would have the same effect as a Death Star, except they are far more mobile and can be used destroy capital ships in a single shot.
First Order should use a modified Harrower design, they were much better than the Imperial Star Destroyers.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Ehhhhh, I think it'd go with it being a manufacturing-only that would be the climax of the third film or whatever. And maybe have it be an old Sith Empire knock-off or something instead of bringing in the Rakatara.

Besides, we already had two movies with gigantic spacestations with huge superweapons. It's been done already; move on.

Basically, it'd be the Sun Razer from the SWTOR comics.

So basically, an improved version of the Silencer, a Sith Empire superweapon from SWTOR.

Silencer (superweapon)

The Silencer was a superweapon consisting of a rapidly recharging megalaser that could be mounted on a capital ship. This laser was called a "fleet killer" because it had both the power and the speed of fire to destroy several capital ships in rapid succession. Because of this, it was considered...

starwars.fandom.com

Rapid recharge "fleet killer" megalaser that was both deadly and inexpensive compared to a Death Star.
A whole fleet of them concentrating their lasers on one point would have the same effect as a Death Star, except they are far more mobile and can be used destroy capital ships in a single shot.
First Order should use a modified Harrower design, they were much better than the Imperial Star Destroyers.

Damn, I was going to use that idea for a planned hate fix-fic with the Sith Empire appearing out of nowhere after RoS and kicking the shit out of the Resistance. And yes, there is a whole fleet of Silencer-equipped dreadnoughts. Darth Nox - then Lord Kallig - ordered Moff Pyron to share the superweapon with the rest of their power base. After Nox disappeared, Darth Acina ordered the fleet to go into hiding, and which later resurfaced in one of the expansions.

Since you publicly brought it up first, do you mind if I use that idea? I want to see that ramshackle fleet from RoS get reduced to spaceborne scrap and slag after getting blasted by multiple Silencers.

 

[Skallagrim]

Worst part is, they actually had a decent set up for the First Order in that regard. The core idea (that got promptly forgotten) was that the Order had learned from the Empire's mistakes (command bridges more built into their ships and thus better protected, larger hangar bays for more durable fighters, better equipped and trained troops, etc) and was operating from a position of weakness against the New Republic.

They're essentially a diminished Empire gone full fascist mode, with an emphasis on quality over quantity with a fanatical officer corps. That could have worked very well indeed, especially if the "order" of the First Order got contrasted with the still chaotic and recovering Republic.

Exactly this. Say what you like about the rest of the Sequel trilogy, but the basic IDEA of the First Order, an Imperial Remnant that has gone Full Fascist Mode and learned from its mistakes in order to continue its war with the Rebel Alliance/New Republic is a good one.

I would have ditched Starkiller base in favor of something like the Legends Sovereign style Super dreadnaught(s) with a mini-superlaser. That said, these would be the FO's equivalent of the IJN's Yamato class ships (with much of the same idea behind them- they can't compete with the New Republic with equal numbers) and not their standard vessels, with limits of how many of these superships the First Order can make. Be it for logistical reasons, or the fact that mini-superlaser is somehow derived from Old Sith Dark Side tech, which the First Order has recovered in the unknown regions or something, but cannot reproduce on their own.

Plus, this way we can have some real full-scale fleet battles between warships instead of just fighter battles. And I would make it absolutely sure that it's clear just how many guns the big ships have. Something that the likes of Rogue One failed to do. For extra fun, have a LOT of anti-fighter weapons on FO ships so that fighters have a much harder time attacking them; actually SHOWING in a story-relevant way how the FO has learned from the Empire.

That and I would have done more to move away from the 'classic' Imperial tech designs to make the current vessels feel more like an evolution of the setting; similar to how we saw ships in the prequel era that were clearly predecessors of the Original Trilogy Era ships.

100% agreed. Death Star III is stupid and lazy. I'm not a big fan of using another superweapon, either. My basic premise for a "simple revision" of Episode VII would be "New Republic and Imperial Remnant made peace c. 9 ABY, the latter turned isolationist, and there's been peace ever since. Leia believes the Remnant is re-arming. Too few people believe her."

And then we just open with Poe, but on a recon mission in Imperial space. And he discovers that Leia was right. They have a fleet of advanced star destroyers, and they're gearing up for a campaign. He's spotted, is captured, but manages to ditch his droid (with the recon recordings) on Jakku. Plot proceeds from there.

The new star destroyers should be a natural evolution of the old design. They went with quality over quantity, and the ace up their sleeve is that they have experimental new hyperdrive models. The Imperials can't just conquer the galaxy, but their plan is the launch a Blitzkrieg and secure key systems in the Core. Destroy the Republic's government, beat the Republic fleet before they can react adequately, and capture all the most important worlds.

This means the Republic isn't stupid. It's peaceful and prosperous, and after almost three decades of peace, they're not expecting a sudden conflict for no reason. Leia only suspects because this Dark Side figure (Snoke) started corrupting her son, and she believes there's a bigger plot afoot. Turns out she's right, because Snoke has actually seized control of the Imperial Remnant years earlier, and he's behind the re-armament and militarism.


-------

They even had a pretty badass theme that never got used.

The way they handled music in the sequels it... terrible. Williams composed way more than they used, and they just lazily kept inserting OT themes for nostalgia-milking.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Ehhhhh, I think it'd go with it being a manufacturing-only that would be the climax of the third film or whatever. And maybe have it be an old Sith Empire knock-off or something instead of bringing in the Rakatara.

Besides, we already had two movies with gigantic spacestations with huge superweapons. It's been done already; move on.

I can get behind that. Once again, the Order learns from the Empire's lessons and doesn't put all its eggs in one basket with super weapons. We could go from that to seeing an Order Navy that uses multiple varieties of ships to compliment their battlegroups. Instead of uniform star destroyers that go off "bigger is better" we see dedicated battleships, carriers and battlecruisers, flanked by updated Arquitens and Raiders bristling with point defence. Throw in some beefed up Interdictors, and you have a small but devastatingly potent fleet.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

Damn, I was going to use that idea for a planned hate fix-fic with the Sith Empire appearing out of nowhere after RoS and kicking the shit out of the Resistance. And yes, there is a whole fleet of Silencer-equipped dreadnoughts. Darth Nox - then Lord Kallig - ordered Moff Pyron to share the superweapon with the rest of their power base. After Nox disappeared, Darth Acina ordered the fleet to go into hiding, and which later resurfaced in one of the expansions.

Since you publicly brought it up first, do you mind if I use that idea? I want to see that ramshackle fleet from RoS get reduced to spaceborne scrap and slag after getting blasted by multiple Silencers.

As long as we're marking out territory, has anyone else had the idea of doing a curb-stomping hatefic where the Yuuzhan Vong overrun the senile and sclerotic SkavenWars New Republic that has literally no defenses against it?

 

[Zachowon]

Can we just have a SWTOR live action series up until the Expansions that dont very based on class and have it as a Party theme for each one

 

[Navarro]

I mean, Disney's New Republic doesn't exist after TFA, so there's not even anything to conquer.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Since you publicly brought it up first, do you mind if I use that idea? I want to see that ramshackle fleet from RoS get reduced to spaceborne scrap and slag after getting blasted by multiple Silencers.

Oh sure.
Here's the rest if the idea if you're interested.

The Silencer fleet is dispersed into smaller battlegroups that maintain comm silence to avoid attracting any attention.
One battlegroup of 5-6 Silencers is sent to the distant edge of the galaxy, where unbeknownst to them, there's some sort of space anomaly that scrambles the comms AND is closed off to the force (a deadzone for comms and the force like the RW example of Alaska).
Thus they never receive the "all-clear and reassemble at Point X" message from Moff Pyron, who assumes that the Eternal Fleet killed them.
Over the years, the crew and officers of the fleet create their own little civilization with the few force-sensitive Sith commanders assuming the role of a Dark Council of sorts.
The ships were loaded with machinery and equipment (they didn't know how long they'd be in exile), enough to establish a new civilization and terraform a jungle world into something habitable (like what they did to Dromund Kaas).
The natives are enslaved (as per Sith tradition) and used to work for and serve the Imperials and Sith.
This goes on as time passes, decades turning to centuries and then millennia.
The small fleet of 5-6 Silencer is now a massive battlefleet that protects a sprawling civilization spread across multiple systems.

TL;DR kind of like the Lost Tribe of the Sith, but much better prepared and on a much bigger scale. And lots more Sith.

Then RoS happens and the resulting shift in the force alerts a young female member of the Sith Council who's very sensitive to these kinds of changes. She assumes that means that the dark side is calling them home.
And then cue's your revenge fic where the last remnants of the Old Sith Empire return to wreak havoc on the galaxy once more in a manner similar to how they returned in SWTOR.

 

[BlackDragon98]

As long as we're marking out territory, has anyone else had the idea of doing a curb-stomping hatefic where the Yuuzhan Vong overrun the senile and sclerotic SkavenWars New Republic that has literally no defenses against it?

The idea's crossed my mind, but the ST poisoned the well so much that my muse has packed up and headed over to Marvel 616 instead.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I mean, Disney's New Republic doesn't exist after TFA, so there's not even anything to conquer.

Fine, the New New Republic, whatever oligarchy gets setup by the usual suspects in the Core after RoS.

Then the Fell-Thrawn True Imperial Remnant rides to the rescue.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Base idea is to have the Sith Empire right after the Battle of Ilum get sent into canon. With the Empire on the backfoot having lost 3 Dark Councilors at Corellia, the Emperor seemingly assassinated by the Hero of Tython, and also defeated at Ilum, I want to make the crossover event have an air of 'Miracle of Brandenburg'. Not to mention give quite a few people in canon SW a heart attack, when suddenly Alderaan reappears...

...only it's not the pacifist fantasy it's become at the time of its destruction, but a Planetos-like world divided between feuding noble houses.

Spoiler

And with the Republic gone, the Sith-backed House Thul suddenly has a massive advantage over House Organa. Meta-wise, I get to push the diversity message of canon in a backhanded fashion, by making Elana Thul the Queen of Alderaan.

And she's very much a Sith partisan. That ought to knock the socks off quite a few people in the Resistance.

 

[DarthOne]

As long as we're marking out territory, has anyone else had the idea of doing a curb-stomping hatefic where the Yuuzhan Vong overrun the senile and sclerotic SkavenWars New Republic that has literally no defenses against it?

I assume ‘Skaven Wars’ is your nickname for the Disney timeline? I tend to use ‘Disney Wars’ myself

 

[BlackDragon98]

I assume ‘Skaven Wars’ is your nickname for the Disney timeline? I tend to use ‘Disney Wars’ myself

For me it's the Rattenkriege, German for Rat Wars.
Cause its made by the Rat.

 

[DocSolarisReich]

I assume ‘Skaven Wars’ is your nickname for the Disney timeline? I tend to use ‘Disney Wars’ myself

I find 'Skaven' to be useful shorthand for 'Devil Mouse' aka 'Disney'.

 

[Zachowon]

Base idea is to have the Sith Empire right after the Battle of Ilum get sent into canon. With the Empire on the backfoot having lost 3 Dark Councilors at Corellia, the Emperor seemingly assassinated by the Hero of Tython, and also defeated at Ilum, I want to make the crossover event have an air of 'Miracle of Brandenburg'. Not to mention give quite a few people in canon SW a heart attack, when suddenly Alderaan reappears...

...only it's not the pacifist fantasy it's become at the time of its destruction, but a Planetos-like world divided between feuding noble houses.

Spoiler

And with the Republic gone, the Sith-backed House Thul suddenly has a massive advantage over House Organa. Meta-wise, I get to push the diversity message of canon in a backhanded fashion, by making Elana Thul the Queen of Alderaan.

And she's very much a Sith partisan. That ought to knock the socks off quite a few people in the Resistance.

So, I personally think we should have a SWTOR series with what Bioware would consider the Canon of each, and have them be the ones that go through the stories, and they intervene and cross over after a certain point. Eventually the 4 classes of each faction are teams and go on missions ending up fighting the others now and then all the way to the Eternal throne Expansion

 

[DarthOne]

So basically, an improved version of the Silencer, a Sith Empire superweapon from SWTOR.

Silencer (superweapon)

The Silencer was a superweapon consisting of a rapidly recharging megalaser that could be mounted on a capital ship. This laser was called a "fleet killer" because it had both the power and the speed of fire to destroy several capital ships in rapid succession. Because of this, it was considered...

starwars.fandom.com

Rapid recharge "fleet killer" megalaser that was both deadly and inexpensive compared to a Death Star.
A whole fleet of them concentrating their lasers on one point would have the same effect as a Death Star, except they are far more mobile and can be used destroy capital ships in a single shot.
First Order should use a modified Harrower design, they were much better than the Imperial Star Destroyers.

Sorta but I would have used the Sovereign so we can at least have the Big Enemy Ship like the Executor and to keep the hell away from the ‘Death Star-Star Destroyers’ seen in the last film.

Also, the Sovereign/Dark Empire is more obscure the STOR, so there’s less potential backlash at me ‘stealing’ the idea. Also it keeps the fleet fights feeling more like SW if we still have to have normal ship weaponry and avoids making to FO ships too OP.