Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Le Shrug. I can't tell if that was her orders or not and can't see disliking the character for that, and abandoning your comrades in the heat of battle (or an incredibly lengthy chase) isn't something I'm prepared to root for so I'll give that one to Rose.


Can you tell us what about the cinematography you found impressive?

it's more than on top of everything else. She's a walking talking Anitfa brat

rants about somthing something capitalism, talks about muh cause. Botches a military victory because she wants her some boy. To be fair though it's not her fault, rian Johnson doesn't know the meaning of subtle or nuance
 
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It wasn't going to be a military victory if Finn rammed the thing; he might have taken it out, but that would only be a minor inconvenience to the First Order as they now have to use the guns on the walkers to batter through.
 
plot bunny(very badly executed):

as general hux stood, watching the pathetic attempts of the sand speeders it became clear to him that the besieged defenders could offer no effective resistance
in idea was forming, and as the speeders turned back it crystallized
"hold fire." if the order had surprised his subordinates they showed no sign, and the new supreme commander was far too intent on the fortress before them to care
"open communications, all frequencies."
it took but a moment for the operator to confirm that any systems capable of picking up the signal would do so.
"this is general armitage hux of the first order calling the leaders of the resistance, please respond."
the reaction was both immediate as the two spiders closest to the cannon crashed together in shock and delayed as the rebels no doubt discussed the matter between themselves.
"this is general poe dameron. say what you're going to say."
a smile came to hux's face, as kylo ren merely raised his eyebrow in disbelief.

"ah, general dameron congratulations on your promotion. anyways i was hoping that you might order your people to surrender.''
hux didn't know were the flippancy in his voice came from, but it sounded right.
"you have 5 minutes to lay down your arms, no harm will come to you or any of your people, bla, bla, bla, and all that. i'll be waiting for your call"
a gesture cut the line before dameron could respond. it felt good to be on the other side of the joke this time

it took only two minutes before "they're hailing us, sir."
'wait for it.'
'wait for it'
hux straightened his jacket
"answer them."

"this leia solo. do I have your word that all my people will treated fairly?"

"of course, mother, even fn-2187 has nothing to fear."

"then so be it, we'll open the gates now"

as the day ended so to did the resistance. it's pilots, soldiers, and crewmen were processed and scattered to camps throughout the new empire
 
The film is very clear on this. If they could pound through the wall with the walker's guns, they wouldn't have needed the cannon in the first place. They would have just marched in with the walker's and opened fire.

No, the film says that the siege cannon is instant game over for the Resistance. There was absolutely no indication that their defenses could stand up to a conventional direct assault either; it would just take more time than the cannon.
 
Yeah, they state that they can hold out with their armor and shields but the plan was to use the base to hunker down and call their allies up for relief, they thought they only needed time and a fleet would show up to save them from somewhere. They were borked because nobody answered when they sent out Leia's call to action. Apparently they should have used Lando's name instead of Leia's.
 
No, the film says that the siege cannon is instant game over for the Resistance. There was absolutely no indication that their defenses could stand up to a conventional direct assault either; it would just take more time than the cannon.

As I said, if the cannon wasn't needed to batter down the wall, the FO wouldn't have used it, if they could have just pounded it down with a few minutes of fire from the walkers.
 
It's possible that said gate was made out of some super-duper material we don't ever see again, in which case I have to ask:
Why didn't the FO not just bomb the stones around the bunker to smitherns then? It was obviously not as solid as the gate.
 
It's possible that said gate was made out of some super-duper material we don't ever see again, in which case I have to ask:
Why didn't the FO not just bomb the stones around the bunker to smitherns then? It was obviously not as solid as the gate.
That one's actually pointed out in the movie, Leia states they have shields that can deflect any bombardment.
 
Natasi Daala: The Best Admiral We Never Had
Daala wasn't very well-written, but we can logically infer that she must've been a talented leader. She is the only one to see the fundamental problem the infighting Imperial warlords represent, does her best to solve it, is in fact reasonable about it, and ultimately does what must be done -- and succeeds. In spite of comple foolishness on the part of those warlords, she sill united the remaining Imperials. And within a short span of time, not only gets re-armament started, but successfully introduces reforms that end the institutional sexism and bigotry (which needlessly limited the appeal of the Remnant to most non-humans and women).

And then she proceeds on a campaign that is generally successful, has clear tactical objectives (draw away the Republic fleet, then attacks the Jedi, because they represent an existential threat), and which is only foiled by something she literally could not have known (namely that Jedi can combine their powers and literally push an entire fleet several astronomical units away in an instant).

Overall, I say that she's severely under-rated because she was poorly written. Her actual performance is actually comparable to Thrawn's. She creates the Imperial Remnant by sheer forces of will, which just so happens to be the one Imperial successor state that manages to stabilise and survive. Similarly, Thrawn created the Empire of the Hand. Likewise, they are both undone by factors they couldn't very reasonably predict, stemming from knowledge to which they had no access (Daala couldn't have known Jedi could do that specific thing, and Thrawn had no way of knowing Luke and Leia were Vader's children and therefore had a connection to the Noghri.)

Disagree on Daala. We never got Gilad Pellaeon.
I'd say Pellaeon was a very capable administrator, but not actually such a skilled admiral. Nor did he have particularly stellar leadership credentials. Note that before Daala appeared, he was unable to pull off what she did. He saw the problems with the warlords, but wasn't able to solve those problems.

Pellaeon was an excellent second-in-command, and a fully qualified successor to a figure like Thrawn or Daala. Level-headed, dependable and a man of his word. And once in charge, he grew into his role for sure. But without someone else setting things in motion, I don't see Pellaeon pulling such achievements off on his own.

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Mara Jade: The Only Way to Make Luke's Exile Understandable
I don't think it's the only way. The idea of his nephew turning bad (and Luke outright standing over his bed with his light-sabre ignited) is what screws it up. The weird attempts at retcons ("no, Ben didn't really kill the other students!") only make it worse.

But consider the following: from what we know about Lucas's plans, some kind of tragedy with a student betraying Luke was always the plan. But it wasn't supposed to be his nephew. Lucas, at least at one point, envisioned an expy of Darth Talon in the role. We can easily imagine a plot like this. Post-RotJ, Luke aims to rebuild the Order and gahers students. One of them (the Darth Talon-to-be) is clearly drawn to the Dark Side, but Luke is confident he can guide her to the Light. He redeemed Darth Vader, after all! And he believes in the fundamental good in people!

What follows is something akin to what repeatedly happened (and really, too often) in the old EU. As with Kyp Durron, or Brakiss. Luke is wrong, and his student falls to the Dark Side. And in this case, that student ends up murdering all his other students. And then disappears into the night. Luke is left with a bunch of corpses, of the young people he was entrusted to teach and protect, and he feels that it's all his fault.

With that kind of set-up, his exile makes sense. He feels like a failure. He got people killed. Instead of whining about the supposed arrogance of the prequel-era Jedi, he laments his own arrogance. He thought he could easily save anyone struggling with the Dark Side, and as it turns out... he couldn't.

(And then another young woman shows up, with a lot of buried resentment, who reminds him so very much of the one who butchered all her classmates years ago. If well-written, his reluctance to train her as a Jedi makes perfect sense, too.)
 
Daala wasn't very well-written, but we can logically infer that she must've been a talented leader. She is the only one to see the fundamental problem the infighting Imperial warlords represent, does her best to solve it, is in fact reasonable about it, and ultimately does what must be done -- and succeeds. In spite of comple foolishness on the part of those warlords, she sill united the remaining Imperials. And within a short span of time, not only gets re-armament started, but successfully introduces reforms that end the institutional sexism and bigotry (which needlessly limited the appeal of the Remnant to most non-humans and women).

And then she proceeds on a campaign that is generally successful, has clear tactical objectives (draw away the Republic fleet, then attacks the Jedi, because they represent an existential threat), and which is only foiled by something she literally could not have known (namely that Jedi can combine their powers and literally push an entire fleet several astronomical units away in an instant).

Overall, I say that she's severely under-rated because she was poorly written. Her actual performance is actually comparable to Thrawn's. She creates the Imperial Remnant by sheer forces of will, which just so happens to be the one Imperial successor state that manages to stabilise and survive. Similarly, Thrawn created the Empire of the Hand. Likewise, they are both undone by factors they couldn't very reasonably predict, stemming from knowledge to which they had no access (Daala couldn't have known Jedi could do that specific thing, and Thrawn had no way of knowing Luke and Leia were Vader's children and therefore had a connection to the Noghri.)
She's of my favorite Imperials because of all the aforementioned reasons despite being badly written.
But she still light years better compared to purple haired Holdo.

I'd say Pellaeon was a very capable administrator, but not actually such a skilled admiral. Nor did he have particularly stellar leadership credentials. Note that before Daala appeared, he was unable to pull off what she did. He saw the problems with the warlords, but wasn't able to solve those problems.

Pellaeon was an excellent second-in-command, and a fully qualified successor to a figure like Thrawn or Daala. Level-headed, dependable and a man of his word. And once in charge, he grew into his role for sure. But without someone else setting things in motion, I don't see Pellaeon pulling such achievements off on his own.
Pelleon's a solid 2inC but he isn't leader material.
Not forceful enough in my option, more of the negotiating and voice of reason type.
I think this image is a pretty good example of his and Daala's respective personalities.
iu

One with the gas mask is Daala, one scrambling to put his on is Pelleon.

I don't think it's the only way. The idea of his nephew turning bad (and Luke outright standing over his bed with his light-sabre ignited) is what screws it up. The weird attempts at retcons ("no, Ben didn't really kill the other students!") only make it worse.

But consider the following: from what we know about Lucas's plans, some kind of tragedy with a student betraying Luke was always the plan. But it wasn't supposed to be his nephew. Lucas, at least at one point, envisioned an expy of Darth Talon in the role. We can easily imagine a plot like this. Post-RotJ, Luke aims to rebuild the Order and gahers students. One of them (the Darth Talon-to-be) is clearly drawn to the Dark Side, but Luke is confident he can guide her to the Light. He redeemed Darth Vader, after all! And he believes in the fundamental good in people!

What follows is something akin to what repeatedly happened (and really, too often) in the old EU. As with Kyp Durron, or Brakiss. Luke is wrong, and his student falls to the Dark Side. And in this case, that student ends up murdering all his other students. And then disappears into the night. Luke is left with a bunch of corpses, of the young people he was entrusted to teach and protect, and he feels that it's all his fault.

With that kind of set-up, his exile makes sense. He feels like a failure. He got people killed. Instead of whining about the supposed arrogance of the prequel-era Jedi, he laments his own arrogance. He thought he could easily save anyone struggling with the Dark Side, and as it turns out... he couldn't.

(And then another young woman shows up, with a lot of buried resentment, who reminds him so very much of the one who butchered all her classmates years ago. If well-written, his reluctance to train her as a Jedi makes perfect sense, too.)
I think a different approach would make more sense.
Luke is searching for Jedi artifacts and gets info about one of Palp's sector warehouse planets.
He goes in to investigate, defeats the security droids and grabs a good haul of Jedi artifacts, texts, lightsabers, you name it.
Just as he's about to leave, he's jumped by a mysterious assassin.
They fight and though he manages to beat her off, he suffers injuries and collapses from blood loss.
Luke wakes up and he finds himself tied up. The assassin has managed to capture him while he was out.
The assassin reveals her face; it's Mara Jade. (Instead of a Solo movie, there should be a movie about Mara Jade and her origins)

She tells him that she's going to kill him on Palp's orders and asks him if he has any last words.
He tells her that this isn't the only way, blah, blah, etc.
Long story short he manages to convince her to turn to the light side, or at least not kill him.
They part ways after he shows her the warehouse and agrees to give her some Jedi holocrons as part of their deal.

They meet again in different circumstances, but this time Luke saves her life.
Mara feels there's chemistry between them and successfully seduces Luke in the aftermath of the battle.

Fast forward a couple years, Luke and Mara are now married and she is now pregnant with his son.
There is an assassination attempt on Luke by former Imperials (who are pissed because Luke destroyed the Empire and thus their source of wealth and prosperity).
Instead of targeting Luke, the assassin's chose to target Mara, who is wounded in the attack but ultimately she survives and her unborn son is unharmed.
This attack however, makes Luke question whether his dream of reestablishing the Jedi Order is worth risking the life of his wife and son.
After some serious discussion with Mara, Luke chooses to abandon his dream of establishing a new Jedi Order in favor of raising his new family.
Luke going into exile to keep his wife and son safe is much more understandable and relatable compared to the dumpster fire we got from Disney.
 
to be fair as bad as Disney star wars is....at least it's yet to reach crystal star levels
The sequel trilogy was literally about a revived Palpatine who was crumpled like a piece of tinfoil in less than 15 minutes.
A revived Palpatine was one of the most hated events in EU, and yet Disney made it even worse than the EU version.

At least EU revived Palpatine went on a minor rampage through the galaxy before he was stopped.
Disney revived Palpatine was destroyed in less than 15 minutes by a bunch of ghosts.
If this isn't lame, boring, and cringy, I dunno what is.
 
The sequel trilogy was literally about a revived Palpatine who was crumpled like a piece of tinfoil in less than 15 minutes.
A revived Palpatine was one of the most hated events in EU, and yet Disney made it even worse than the EU version.

At least EU revived Palpatine went on a minor rampage through the galaxy before he was stopped.
Disney revived Palpatine was destroyed in less than 15 minutes by a bunch of ghosts.
If this isn't lame, boring, and cringy, I dunno what is.

crystal star involved a giant sentient blob that somehow lives outside of the force yet is capable of healing people by absorbing other people's life force and somehow look decides to become a sterotypical wine mom and becomes an advid desiple of this cult.... did I mention this takes place in 14 ABY!
 
crystal star involved a giant sentient blob that somehow lives outside of the force yet is capable of healing people by absorbing other people's life force and somehow look decides to become a sterotypical wine mom and becomes an advid desiple of this cult.... did I mention this takes place in 14 ABY!
The thing with EU is that as long as it isn't a major event, weird shit like this usually isn't mentioned in later books and stuff.
This module system lets me pretend that this particular event never happened.
And the whole crystal star thing is never mentioned by any character afterwards, so we can all just pretend it never existed.

Disney stuff on the other hand. . .
They literally killed off all three main character from the original trilogy but in the worst of ways.
At least in EU only Chewbacca dies and he does so with honor and dignity, fulfilling his life debt to Han Solo by saving him and his kids from being crushed by a moon.
iu

And the effect of his death is also depicted very well, as shown by Han bursting into tears here, something that has never happened to him.
 

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